The Way it Was (Pre-Roe v Wade)

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Delia, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. sealadaigh
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    almost all the studies about pain threshold differences between men and women have been inconclusive or flawed. there are also different kinds on pain.
     
  2. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Though pregnancy definitely has its uncomfortable side, and the pain of the birth process is real, that has not been a factor for me in my pro life stance. Nor are my religious beliefs really a factor since I believe in eternal life for all souls however long or limited is their time as human beings here on Earth. Only God knows how much He has influenced the convictions that I hold.

    But for me the issue is twofold.

    1. What it does to our society as a whole--how it affects us in negative ways to alter our values; to cheapen life and see it as a throwaway in favor of selfish pursuits.

    2. The lost potential in all those people who were never allowed to live. Yes, we may have prevented another Hitler or Attila from walking the Earth, but we may have also lost the brilliant mind that would have been the next Mozart or the person who figured out the physics to allow us to achieve warp speeds or the physician who solved the mysteries of cancer and found the prevention or cure once and for all.

    For me, I think we lose a portion of our greatness, our own potential, and a bit of our character that makes us remarkable people when we lose our reverance for life and see it as a throwaway.
     
  3. Dragonlady
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    You continue to project the idea that women are aborting children for selfish reasons and completely ignore the fact that the the majority of women aborting fetuses are poor women who already have children, who simply cannot afford to have another child.

    You value children by making them important. Poor children need to be just as important to society as the children of the rich.
     
  4. Foxfyre
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    Yup. Even those who are on the way but not yet born.
     
  5. Dragonlady
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    You START by valuing the ones that are here. Making sure they have the tools which will help them grow up strong: good health care, proper nutrition, and a good education. You give them opportunities, not run down schools with shared textbooks, proper school lunch programs where ketchup is not a vegetable, after school programs to enrich and educate, and supports for the parents.
     
  6. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Oh really? Well let's say we started that in the 1960's with LBJ's "Great Society" initiatives. These days EVERY American who can show sufficient economic disadvantage has housing, groceries, healthcare, education, etc. provided free of charge, courtesy of the American taxpayer.

    The result? 54+ million aborted babies.

    Funny how in the days of an American value system in which the parents of children thought THEY had to responsiblity to raise those children, there were far far fewer abortions, legal or illegal.

    I don't think increasing the nanny state has done much to discourage abortions.
     
  7. Dragonlady
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    No they don't. If they did, you wouldn't have homelessness. Children wouldn't be suing their schools because of the quality of education they are receiving in ghetto schools.

    The US spends the lowest number of $$$ per capita on social programs than any country in the first world. It is the ONLY COUNTRY in the first world without government mandated maternity leave, vacation or family leave. How about subsidized day care programs?

    If a woman in the US takes time off to have a baby, she can be fired. Only in America.
     
  8. Foxfyre
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    You must not have heard about the 12-week emergency leave program initiated during the Clinton administration. And homelessness has absolutely nothing to do with lack of social spending. Perhaps you could read up on that? I managed to work pretty much full time all the time I was raising my kids and never received a penny from the taxpayer to help me do that including subsidized health care or even a tax break for child care. You do what you do and I chose to arrange my life so that I could be a competent mother who was available to her kids when she needed to be, and also a competent career woman. (And by the way, quite a bit of that career has been devoted to working with low income families.)

    But setting all that aside, DL, it is quite obvious that more social spending, whatever the percentages, has done absolutely nothing to even slow down the number of abortions. Now at 54+ million and counting since Roe v Wade.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  9. sealadaigh
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    well, that is a rather elitest and, if you come from a diverse society which has an entrenched institutional racism, it certainly smacks of racism as well.

    shall we talk about inserting IUDs in the uteri of 10 year old girls whose parent/s fail to attain a certain income level? i have a feeling you would oppose that.

    by the way, i have worked with poor and disabled children.
     
  10. Dragonlady
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    By all means, continue to ignore the facts and figures. You've done that throughout this thread. Everything I point out to you which would go to reduce the abortions, and which are currently not done in the US, you deny, ignore or refuse to consider. You go back time and time again to matters of public morality.

    Morality always starts with practical matters. People talk about doing the "right thing", but when faced with difficult choices, morality comes second to practicality. Poor women might want to have more children, but can't afford them. Make it easier for them to keep their jobs, find affordable day care and housing, and fewer women will have abortions.
     

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