The "Unforgivable" Sin

[JakeStarkey]

Each of us have a life narrative to live. It's not hard to write it for yourself. Consider using the five chapters of James on constructing your own narrative.

The best to all of you, and where I have offended in this thread any of you, accept my apology.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The "Unforgivable" Sin

Monkeys squabbling over ancient stories.

The last 2,000 years are done and buried..... look to the next 2,000 for your future.

I don't think it's wise to ignore history.

Who said anything about ignoring history?

History is important, understanding where we come from is tragic, fun and informative.


It's watching the Monkeys continue their historic squabbles, still to the point of bloodshed, over which unbelievable ancient story of creation is correct, and whose god is God that just breaks my heart. We're so fucking close to Sentience... tolerance and education... tolerance and education.

 

[Avatar4321]

We, in this sense, are all but a child, including you and me.

I hope you are fulfilled in your faith walk.

Preventing the bullying of others is an admirable trait in a child.

And what does bullying have to do with anything?

 

[Avatar4321]

Monkeys squabbling over ancient stories.

The last 2,000 years are done and buried..... look to the next 2,000 for your future.

I don't think it's wise to ignore history.

Who said anything about ignoring history?

History is important, understanding where we come from is tragic, fun and informative.


It's watching the Monkeys continue their historic squabbles, still to the point of bloodshed, over which unbelievable ancient story of creation is correct, and whose god is God that just breaks my heart. We're so fucking close to Sentience... tolerance and education... tolerance and education.

It pains you that people seek knowledge of the divine and then seek to share that knowledge?

 

[JakeStarkey]

And what about the comment about bullying offends you?

We, in this sense, are all but a child, including you and me.

I hope you are fulfilled in your faith walk.

Preventing the bullying of others is an admirable trait in a child.

And what does bullying have to do with anything?

 

[AVG-JOE]

I don't think it's wise to ignore history.

Who said anything about ignoring history?

History is important, understanding where we come from is tragic, fun and informative.


It's watching the Monkeys continue their historic squabbles, still to the point of bloodshed, over which unbelievable ancient story of creation is correct, and whose god is God that just breaks my heart. We're so fucking close to Sentience... tolerance and education... tolerance and education.

It pains you that people seek knowledge of the divine and then seek to share that knowledge?

It pains me to Moderate in the Middle East Forum on this board, so just imagine what I think of the evening news.

We should be beyond these ancient rivalries over creation stories and whose 'god' is God by now.

Tolerance and Education, baby!

 

[Avatar4321]

And what about the comment about bullying offends you?

We, in this sense, are all but a child, including you and me.

I hope you are fulfilled in your faith walk.

Preventing the bullying of others is an admirable trait in a child.

And what does bullying have to do with anything?

i never said it did offend me. It would be nice, however, if you answered questions instead of deflected and avoided them for a change. What does bullying have to do with anything we are talking about?

 

[BreezeWood]

Why are we worrying what unlettered folks here think what the Bible means?

the Judea / Christian Bible itself is unlettered - exampled as one by its fabrication of an original 10 Commandments [sic] that are presupposed without foundation but rendered as a script from God - without the original proof.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The question was answered. What did you not understand?

And what about the comment about bullying offends you?

And what does bullying have to do with anything?

i never said it did offend me. It would be nice, however, if you answered questions instead of deflected and avoided them for a change. What does bullying have to do with anything we are talking about?

 

[Billo_Really]

The truth really hurts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G5RP6mQK4N8

This is absolutely true!

Hypocrisy, is the sin, from which there is no salvation.

 

[Avatar4321]

The question was answered. What did you not understand?

And what about the comment about bullying offends you?

i never said it did offend me. It would be nice, however, if you answered questions instead of deflected and avoided them for a change. What does bullying have to do with anything we are talking about?

The part of what bullying had to do with the conversation. Something you havent addressed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Clearly addressed. If you don't get it, I can't help.

 

[Avatar4321]

Clearly addressed. If you don't get it, I can't help.

Saying clearly addressed when you have completely ignored the question doesn't mean it's clearly addressed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

When clearly addressed is clear, you saying "completely ignored" is wrong.

Ask clearly. What don't get? Let's answer that question, so give it to me, please.

Clearly addressed. If you don't get it, I can't help.

Saying clearly addressed when you have completely ignored the question doesn't mean it's clearly addressed.

 

[newpolitics]

So, which is it, faith or works? Apparently it is both faith alone, and works alone, which are two mutually exclusive propositions. In other, this is a contradiction. By my standard, this completely falsifies the notion that the bible is inspired by a perfect being.

Except you're arguing a false dichotemy.

All I did was quote the bible, demonstrating a contradiction, which demonstrates that the bible is fundamentally errant. Therefore, it can not have been inspired by a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing being.

 

[turzovka]

Assuming that we both understand the meanings of dogma and doctrine, I can't think of one church that hasn't replaced biblical doctrine with their own brand of dogma. That is why we have not one church of Christ's, but tons of "denominations".

No, we have tons of Protestant denominations. Prior to 1517, it was only Rome and the Eastern Orthodox churches. They split from Rome (or should I say Rome gave them the “split”) in 1054. Again, I do not buy into the way you use the words doctrine and dogma --- as though any law or rule Rome has laid down is the same as doctrine. It is not!! So then, tell me which Catholic dogma or doctrine has Rome ever changed? And limbo would be a wrong answer since it was never a doctrine, not even a formal teaching.

Catholic's teach catechism, the Catholic doctrine on faith and morals. They don't teach Baptist doctrine, or Nazarene doctrine.

Yes, so?


Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it.....” means exactly what it says. It does not exclude study, revelation, or prudence. It promotes it by calling us to judge the only thing the Bible allows us to judge. Righteous judgement.

Where do you get these ideas? Where do you even have the authority to tell us that the Catholic Church is subject to what is in the Bible and if it is not in there it has no legitimacy or authority? Are you one of those who thinks the day Constantine made Christianity an acceptable religion in Rome in 313 a.d. that the Church instantly lost its credibility or truthfulness? This is what Protestants pine for. They think there was this holy, united and pure Church in the first few centuries and then all of sudden it went into heresy the moment Rome said it was Ok. It has no basis in historical truth. The Catholic Church was always thee church, it always had the mass and the eucharist as central to its worship. It was this pope led church and its councils that decided upon which early books were divinely inspired and which were not. These very men who you reject everything they say in other capacities are the ones who decided what was the Bible.

So now you come around and tell us that the Church has no authority unless their rules are taken explicitly and clearly from Scripture. Makes no sense. By the way, whose interpretation is the correct one when deciding what Scripture means? Not the Catholic Church apparently according to you? I do not get it? Do you really think God intended for every individual to decide for themselves what the Bible is saying? That is without reason. Not to mention virtually no one had a Bible or could read for the first 1500 years. No, Jesus established His Church in Matthew 16, 18 and elsewhere because He clearly saw the need for it.


If a nun taught you something in Catechism, you are to judge what she said based on Biblical scripture to see if it is righteous or man contrived.
The verse you quoted was directed at the disciples directly and does NOT mean
that the disciples were to unilaterally decide a matter, thus binding "heaven" to their decision. Look at the tense of the verbs.
It means that their decision, will be in line with what already was God's mind on the issue.
It means that the apostles were Jesus' authoritative spokesmen and that their decisions would be binding.

Again, this is preposterous, IMO. I think you are an intelligent being but are going through theological gymnastics to make it all fit to your own “doctrinal” wishes. Jesus gave His Church, and I mean formally ordained ministers, bishops and Peter as its first leader the AUTHORITY to bind or loose. Simple as that! For you to suggest they would automatically do the right thing every time without thinking because they were under some “holy cloud of infallibility” is really without any basis of reason. This is not unlike the equally ridiculous statement by some Protestant teachings that faith alone is all that matters and works have no basis for our being judged. How can anyone put blinders on and make such a statement?

I will tell you how. When these denominations deny the reality of purgatory they force themselves to come up with kind of theology that does not take into account sin, charity, works, etc. Only faith which is almost sad in its presentation. (I am not saying that is your position, I am saying that is the “faith alone” proponents of Luther. Then when you get into predestination and “once saved, always saved” by Calvin it gets even more bizarre.)


Nowhere does the Bible say it is ok to replace Bible truth for church truth. Nowhere does it say that at it's worst the Church is the supreme authority of the Christian faith. If you believe that read what Christ said to the Church of Laodicea. So much for human flexibility. No honor to be had there. We are the church. Not Rome

What of Laodicea? Do you maintain the “lukewarm” are all in hell? I maintain the lukewarm amongst us (and that is the largest majority) will all be serving sentences in purgatory being purified, refined. God’s justice and mercy together. And, yes, the Bible does speak of the Church as a formal body of ordained believers.

Some like you may maintain that “the church” is where two or more are gathered in Christ as Scripture says. That may be “church” in some sense of the word, but in other passages church means something very different. As in Matthew 18:15-17 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church treat him as a tax collector.”

Other Scriptural examples exist as well. 1 Timothy 3:14 “Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” The church is an ordained body of authority made up of sinners, what choice did God have but to choose fallible vessels?


Nowhere does the Bible say that children go to purgatory. Or that purgatory exists. If you believe that children go to Heaven, then was your church wrong from the 1300's to now? or is it right now, or is children going to heaven just a feeling of yours? And how comforting was the church's lack of understanding of Abraham's bosom for the mother that lost her child in the 1400's?

What are you getting at? This 1300 date means nothing to me, no matter what papal decree was issued. The doctrine of purgatory was taught, accepted and adopted since the earliest centuries after Christ. If some bishop or pope said something to make things uncomfortable for a mother who lost her child, well that is very regrettable and a great error on this clergy’s part. But I still do not know what you are referencing?

Pugatory is all over the New Testament, by the way. God did not spell it out for you in the clearest of terms, almost assuredly because it would cause even greater “lukewarmness” amongst the faithful. Knowing everyone in purgatory eventuall is allowed into heaven, it is human nature to do just enough to get by. This would surely happen to a greater degree and it would be an enormous misjudgement on the believer’s part. Because purgatory is, by and large, a place of unimaginable suffering and unbearable conditions. But it is also of countless levels so those closest to heaven do not suffer much at all.

You want Scripture for all this? Well, for one, it is not necessary because the teachings of Christ speak it clearly without ever being absolutely pointed on specifics. God’s justice and mercy clearly say it as well. Where does that Catholic Church say unbaptized children are not allowed into heaven, formally? The Church has never said formally that any person is for certain not in heaven. Not even Hitler.

I could cite 25 passages or more where Jesus or St. Paul are speaking of purgatory. But since this is so lengthy I will only give you two for the present.

Matthew 5:23-26 "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.”

[Jesus is assuring us (“truly I say to you”) that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is until. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, then we will be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.]


Luke 12:45-48
But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk: the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

[The one slave who was not as guilty because he was somewhat ignorant of the gravity of his sins will receive less lashes. Note, he will still be punished, but not as severely. This is clearly not talking about hell, it is about some punishment that is less than eternal. It is purgatory once again. Different degrees of punishment which is how many have described it. Also, to whom more has been given (i.e. knowledge, riches, revelation, opportunity, etc.) more will be required; otherwise something consequential results. ]