The Ugly Truth of Obamacare

[Soggy in NOLA]

These fools in DC fuck everything up.. . and then tell us our only hope is to let them tinker with it some more. And the brain deads out there clap wildly and say "yeah, yeah"

 

[Ravi]

What is amazing to me is that you want to give the government who has screwed you for much longer than the health care industry sole control of your health care.

Now that is amazing.

Immie

Is that what I want? Thanks for telling me.

Seems to me that you have been preaching it for days and the fact is you attempted to do the exact same thing with my statement, so what's your problem?



Immie

I've not preached anything. Most of the time spent on this issue is debunking the myths that the government is going to have a death panel.

I was reacting to your comment about the insurance companies. If they can't compete and go out of business...tough shit. I'd rather my kids be able to afford health care. And spare me, they'll find a way to compete.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Racist? What does that even mean anymore? It's the last gasp of an empty argument.

 

[Ravi]

Also, once again for the slow, medicare doesn't deny coverage, in fact they are more apt to cover things that aren't needed...like keeping 95 year old Granny hooked up to machines for a year because no one ever discussed with her her right to make her own decisions.

My parents have been on medicare for years and have never been denied anything.

 

[OneWorld]

Simple answer: Politicians are morally corrupt. You want them to run your life... I don't. It's that simple.

Private Health Care will be history under this plan. That is the morally corrupt intentions of the Democrats. Big Government is all they want and this makes government bigger.

Private Health Care will not exist under this plan. There will be one option and one option only. You will have government mandated coverage. Private Insurers will not be allowed to offer any thing that is not designated by the government. They will be told what they can offer and what they can charge. That simply is a crock of shit and quite simply it will destroy the industry.

I would most definitely prefer having the Board of Directors of CIGNA, United Healthcare, Blue Cross/Blue Sheild, Kaiser Permanente, AETNA etc. compete to win my business than I would like to have Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Barney Frank, John McCain, Bill Nelson, Mel Martinez etc. dictate my coverage with the ability to charge me whatever amount they want and increase those charges whenever they want without justification.

Immie

Are you interested in truth at all? This whole false milieu that if you take something out of private sector it, and government is involved in automatically means it becomes more corrupt, or it's taking power away from the people. It's very childish and not very well thought out world view that you've been brainwashed into.

1) Private sector is not going away. Not even Republicans are saying this (and I mean the Republicans with the brains, not you).
2) The reform bill is putting safe guards in place so that the industry, a) can't turn you down for pre-existing conditions, b) can't drop you once you become sick (yes, they are very unhappy about this one because they got away with this for years... well, they had to spend a lot of lobbying dollars to get this one in, c) will have to pay out in timely manner, etc... these are all good for you and should already exist.
3) Regulation does not mean government control, it means having standards set in place that protect the consumer.

Look, here's the simple point about your world view that you need to think hard about.

Is it simpler to change and direct the government if you disagree with how it's running, or a major multi-national corporation?

On one side, you have people who say you can vote with your dollars, and that's somewhat true to a certain extent, except when they hold major monopolies on things. It's also very difficult when they are tied into so many major media outlets that can propagandize you.

On the other side you have people that are realistic that government isn't perfect, but that it can and always HAS been refined itself through the years.

No one wants government involved in our decisions, or become too big for itself. I really don't know of anyone who thinks like this personally (and I have some pretty far to the left friends). But what they do want is a system that regulates these industries (which republicans are completely against) because ALL THROUGH time it's been proven OVER AND OVER again when these industries are not regulated they destroy the planet, they become so consumed in their greed that they don't function in the best interest of the people.

And here we are today looking at another one of them in the health industry. Another one that can take us to the brink of disaster. And how do we fix it... hope that they will suddenly become moral and ethical in business.... hmmm...

 

[Bern80]

This is one of the dumbest things I've read in quite some time.

Most of the cost in health care is in the bureaucracy of the health insurance companies. I believe they said over 40% (someone correct if I'm wrong). Cut this out, and you're drastically driving down the cost. Not to mention we already have medicare. Also, almost all doctor associations are in favor of this reform, so they must not be too worried about "giovernment takeover".... they just want to practice medicine without the current "private take over" they are dealing with in insurance companies. Go talk to some doctors at least... jesus people.

Man, just stop regurgitating what people are saying and think for yourself for a minute.

What new math did you take? Since when is less than half, 'most'?

 

[OneWorld]

What new math did you take? Since when is less than half, 'most'?

I love posts like this. I meant most of the waste. So if there was 50% waste, 80% of that would be in the bureaucracy (40% of total cost).

 

[Immanuel]

No, I just have two eyes and two ears and can clearly see that the current system is NOT working. Are you deaf and blind sir?

And what in the world are you talking about? That's not what's going to happen. Explain to me how that's going to happen based on health care reform. You're acting as if there will be no private sector for health care which is absolutely untrue.

The current process is going to bankrupt us... meaning you won't even have to worry about taxes period. Do you know how many senior citizens lived in poverty before medicare? 80%+.... what is it now? 12% the same ratio of poverty for all americans.

OneWorld, Let me ask you, if you ran a business, which you obviously do not cause you have no business sense at all, and you were told you were no longer able to write new contracts... aka you could no longer bring in new customers... and that within five years your current customers were going to dwindle away what the hell do you think would happen to your business?

Simple question.

I repeat and I don't think I can make it any simpler for you. This plan is designed to kill the private sector. Sure, they are playing word games with you liberals. Telling you they don't want to do anything to the private sector, but they know full well that if they shut off the revenue source for Private Insurers... which section 102 of HR 3200 clearly does... the sector will wither away and die and we will be stuck with Uncle Obama controlling our healthcare option.

Sure they will set up psuedo-private plans that have to fit in their narrow-minded idea of what insurance should offer, but those plans will be governed by the U.S. Government. In other words, you will get the Social Security options of health care. By the way do you know how many options you have for Social Secuirty? One, you Social Security funds go into a single piss poor plan that even a monkey could pick stocks and perform better than the government does with your Social Security taxes.

Easy enough for you to understand? Can't be any simpler than that.

As for whether or not, I realize that we are in need of Health Care Reform, Hell Yes, I have been screaming about it since at least Bush's first term. We are in a crisis. Does that mean we jump from the frying pan into the fire? That is your solution.

Immie

what a silly crock of made up drama poopie!, Immanuel!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is in bold...is simply false...what in the world made you say that intellectually dishonest statement? every insurance company will develop qualified plans on day 1, if they are participating in the gvt's plan.... you can keep your old plan and not go with your insurance company's qualified plan with ALL OF THE FEATURES AND BENEFITS REQUIRED of the new ones, for 5 years if you would like to....if not, then with your same insurance provider you can take out a new plan....THEY ARE NOT losing business silly, they will be gaining near 30 million more people....?

where in the world do you get this poopie from?

care

Care,

You are my friend, but you are as blind as a bat in this case.

Any plan that is not grandfathered in will have to fit into the government mandated idea of Health Insurance. There will be no options except for what the government wants to give you. If you need something else... higher deductibles to reduce your costs? Coverage for a illness not covered by Obamacare etc. You are out of luck. Big deal if a psuedo-private insurer still exists. If they have to offer a one-size fits all plan that is exactly like every other plan then you have no choice. None whatsoever.

Private Insurers will not be allowed to compete. They won't be allowed to tweak their plans in order to attract new customers. AETNA'S plan will be United's Plan which will be the same plan offered by Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Kaiser and in the meantime the corrupt politicians will be raising your taxes (do you know what the tax rate for Social Security started at and where it is today? There is NOTHING to stop it from reaching 10%, 25% or more should politicians decide to increase funding) which means increasing your costs at their own bidding.

Section 401 lays out a 2.5% tax on individuals choosing not to let Uncle Obama run his health care. Today is is 2.5% What will it be in 2030?

And they are imposing an 8% tax on business who can not comply. Today it is 8%. What will that be in 2030? Funny have you read the part about the imposition of taxes on employers? Several paragraphs start out: "In addition to other taxes". Hmm, what other taxes are they thinking of here?

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

Bigger government just exactly what we need!

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Are you interested in truth at all? This whole false milieu that if you take something out of private sector it, and government is involved in automatically means it becomes more corrupt, or it's taking power away from the people. It's very childish and not very well thought out world view that you've been brainwashed into.

1) Private sector is not going away. Not even Republicans are saying this (and I mean the Republicans with the brains, not you).
2) The reform bill is putting safe guards in place so that the industry, a) can't turn you down for pre-existing conditions, b) can't drop you once you become sick (yes, they are very unhappy about this one because they got away with this for years... well, they had to spend a lot of lobbying dollars to get this one in, c) will have to pay out in timely manner, etc... these are all good for you and should already exist.
3) Regulation does not mean government control, it means having standards set in place that protect the consumer.

Look, here's the simple point about your world view that you need to think hard about.

Is it simpler to change and direct the government if you disagree with how it's running, or a major multi-national corporation?

On one side, you have people who say you can vote with your dollars, and that's somewhat true to a certain extent, except when they hold major monopolies on things. It's also very difficult when they are tied into so many major media outlets that can propagandize you.

On the other side you have people that are realistic that government isn't perfect, but that it can and always HAS been refined itself through the years.

No one wants government involved in our decisions, or become too big for itself. I really don't know of anyone who thinks like this personally (and I have some pretty far to the left friends). But what they do want is a system that regulates these industries (which republicans are completely against) because ALL THROUGH time it's been proven OVER AND OVER again when these industries are not regulated they destroy the planet, they become so consumed in their greed that they don't function in the best interest of the people.

And here we are today looking at another one of them in the health industry. Another one that can take us to the brink of disaster. And how do we fix it... hope that they will suddenly become moral and ethical in business.... hmmm...

Simpler to change government? You've got to be kidding... tell me you are kidding. The government won't change at least not for the better. But as for a multi-national corporation, when the customers decide to go elsewhere they start looking for ways to bring those customers back. When the government controls health care there won't be another health care option to turn to.

The government has refined itself... with that you are absolutely correct. It has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger oh and meaner. You're right, it has refined itself. But, the only way it is going to change is by a revolution and I am not calling for a revolution, but nothing is going to change this government.

Obviously, you have not thought this out. This bill WILL kill the private sector. You take away its ability to write new policies and its ability to cut costs and you have killed it. Period. No, if's and's or but's about it. The industry is dead and partisan hacks such as yourself will be the one's that are responsible for doing so. I think I read on your page that you are running a corporation producing How to play poker videos? Suppose Uncle Obama came in and told you that because the government was going to start producing how to play poker videos you could now only sell your videos, for $9.99 while the government would likewise sell its videos, for $9.99 and in the meantime tax everyone who doesn't own its videos a quarter and every corporation that doesn't give its employees a government sponsored poker video 80 cents per employee? You're screwed.

As for preventing insurers from not writing policies for pre-existing conditions... that is a good thing. However, that can easily be legislated (if you were actually concerned with regulation rather than control) without turning health insurance over to the government. The same can be said about dropping your coverage when you become sick. You don't need a bigger government and higher taxes to regulate that stuff.

We are not talking about regulation here. We are talking about government setting up a competing insurance plan and then killing the competition.

And here we are today looking at another one of them in the health industry. Another one that can take us to the brink of disaster. And how do we fix it... hope that they will suddenly become moral and ethical in business.... hmmm...

Yet, you sit there and insinuate that government is suddenly going to become moral and ethical? You are kidding... aren't you?

Immie

 

[driveby]

Why is it other countries can provide this service and we are incapable of doing it?

Are they better at everything than us?

I can get same day doctor appointments, you can't in any of your socialist utopia's ......

 

[veritas]

Are you interested in truth at all? This whole false milieu that if you take something out of private sector it, and government is involved in automatically means it becomes more corrupt, or it's taking power away from the people. It's very childish and not very well thought out world view that you've been brainwashed into.

1) Private sector is not going away. Not even Republicans are saying this (and I mean the Republicans with the brains, not you).
2) The reform bill is putting safe guards in place so that the industry, a) can't turn you down for pre-existing conditions, b) can't drop you once you become sick (yes, they are very unhappy about this one because they got away with this for years... well, they had to spend a lot of lobbying dollars to get this one in, c) will have to pay out in timely manner, etc... these are all good for you and should already exist.
3) Regulation does not mean government control, it means having standards set in place that protect the consumer.

Look, here's the simple point about your world view that you need to think hard about.

Is it simpler to change and direct the government if you disagree with how it's running, or a major multi-national corporation?

On one side, you have people who say you can vote with your dollars, and that's somewhat true to a certain extent, except when they hold major monopolies on things. It's also very difficult when they are tied into so many major media outlets that can propagandize you.

On the other side you have people that are realistic that government isn't perfect, but that it can and always HAS been refined itself through the years.

No one wants government involved in our decisions, or become too big for itself. I really don't know of anyone who thinks like this personally (and I have some pretty far to the left friends). But what they do want is a system that regulates these industries (which republicans are completely against) because ALL THROUGH time it's been proven OVER AND OVER again when these industries are not regulated they destroy the planet, they become so consumed in their greed that they don't function in the best interest of the people.

And here we are today looking at another one of them in the health industry. Another one that can take us to the brink of disaster. And how do we fix it... hope that they will suddenly become moral and ethical in business.... hmmm...

Simpler to change government? You've got to be kidding... tell me you are kidding. The government won't change at least not for the better. But as for a multi-national corporation, when the customers decide to go elsewhere they start looking for ways to bring those customers back. When the government controls health care there won't be another health care option to turn to.

The government has refined itself... with that you are absolutely correct. It has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger oh and meaner. You're right, it has refined itself. But, the only way it is going to change is by a revolution and I am not calling for a revolution, but nothing is going to change this government.

Obviously, you have not thought this out. This bill WILL kill the private sector. You take away its ability to write new policies and its ability to cut costs and you have killed it. Period. No, if's and's or but's about it. The industry is dead and partisan hacks such as yourself will be the one's that are responsible for doing so. I think I read on your page that you are running a corporation producing How to play poker videos? Suppose Uncle Obama came in and told you that because the government was going to start producing how to play poker videos you could now only sell your videos, for $9.99 while the government would likewise sell its videos, for $9.99 and in the meantime tax everyone who doesn't own its videos a quarter and every corporation that doesn't give its employees a government sponsored poker video 80 cents per employee? You're screwed.

As for preventing insurers from not writing policies for pre-existing conditions... that is a good thing. However, that can easily be legislated (if you were actually concerned with regulation rather than control) without turning health insurance over to the government. The same can be said about dropping your coverage when you become sick. You don't need a bigger government and higher taxes to regulate that stuff.

We are not talking about regulation here. We are talking about government setting up a competing insurance plan and then killing the competition.

And here we are today looking at another one of them in the health industry. Another one that can take us to the brink of disaster. And how do we fix it... hope that they will suddenly become moral and ethical in business.... hmmm...

Yet, you sit there and insinuate that government is suddenly going to become moral and ethical? You are kidding... aren't you?

Immie

Good. Let the private health insurance sector die. They can insure boats and planes and railroad freight and houses and jewelry and priceless paintings and racehorses..........

 

[OneWorld]

Simpler to change government? You've got to be kidding... tell me you are kidding. The government won't change at least not for the better. But as for a multi-national corporation, when the customers decide to go elsewhere they start looking for ways to bring those customers back. When the government controls health care there won't be another health care option to turn to.

I mean change when they are harming the consumer and/or the planet. When muti-corporations are killing indigenous people, and destroying the planet in other countries so they can mine, or produce whatever product they are doing, how do you change this? They pay off the Republicans (and some dems) to create laws to protect them, and the run dis-information campaigns across their media outlets to brainwash you.

Now if the government is doing something to harm it's citizens or planet, we can vote these people out of office.

More importantly government doesn't go out to spread dis-information about a policy it wants. It's the private industry that pays off the Repubs (and some dems) to assist in the propagandizing of it's people. When the government actually has times of conscious (like what we're talking about with the health care bill), what is their motive? Who is paying them off?

If you want to know the truth, always follow the money...

I'm not a partisan hack. I'm a philosopher, and I don't care where ideas come from, left right or center. I can think for myself an evaluate them. Is this health care reform perfect? No way, it's not even close. Is it better than what we have now... by at least 1000x.

So I ask you, why are you defending the private sector? I don't even think you understand this bill based on what you're saying.

You need to start thinking for yourself. Your world view was given to you by a think tank. It's the same one that was funded by big pharma and met to discuss words and phrases that would scare people like you the most. Then they could vaguely tie those words into parts of the bill that don't really relate, and depend on your not reading, or really investigating these claims. This kind of propagandizing is it's own industry, and sorry to say but Repubs participate with it more than dems do. Follow the money....

 

[Immanuel]

Good. Let the private health insurance sector die. They can insure boats and planes and railroad freight and houses and jewelry and priceless paintings and racehorses..........

I understand your point of view and believe me, I respect it. If it were that easy, I'd be okay with it, but the thought of having the government run healthcare scares the living shit out of me.

It is not the idea of it being a socialistic program either. We need Welfare and as much as I think that Social Security is being run poorly, we need it. We need health care reform as well, but I am very concerned with a government run health care system. The lack of competition frightens me.

Immie

 

[OneWorld]

I understand your point of view and believe me, I respect it. If it were that easy, I'd be okay with it, but the thought of having the government run healthcare scares the living shit out of me.

Yeah, because they want you to be scared and not think through the points and what is at stake. When you can strike fear into people, it's basically a lobotomy of the mind, and they know this... so mission accomplished with you.

Watch...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS7F62zyLsc]YouTube - The Dangers of Playing Politics With Health Care Reform[/ame]

And...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOj9AOSinck]YouTube - Wendell Potter on Democracy Now![/ame]

 

[Immanuel]

I understand your point of view and believe me, I respect it. If it were that easy, I'd be okay with it, but the thought of having the government run healthcare scares the living shit out of me.

Yeah, because they want you to be scared and not think through the points and what is at stake. When you can strike fear into people, it's basically a lobotomy of the mind, and they know this... so mission accomplished with you.

Watch...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS7F62zyLsc]YouTube - The Dangers of Playing Politics With Health Care Reform[/ame]

And...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOj9AOSinck]YouTube - Wendell Potter on Democracy Now![/ame]

I don't usually say this to people online but fuck you. Trying to have a pleasant conversation with you and you come up with that shit.

Immie

 

[OneWorld]

I don't usually say this to people online but fuck you. Trying to have a pleasant conversation with you and you come up with that shit.

Immie

Fear is the primary tactic used for a reason. It gets people to shift from logic/reason and into fight/flight mode.

Watch the last video.... this is happening in America, and not some 3rd world country. The whole interview, which is 30+ minutes, he explains how the talking points are constructed and disseminated to right-wing media pundits.

As O' Riley woud say... "who's looking out for you?"

 

[Zoom-boing]

3) Regulation does not mean government control, it means having standards set in place that protect the consumer.

The regulations in place now, which vary from state to state, are part of the reason health insurance is so high. Regulation does mean government control. Some is necessary, too little or too much creates problems.

The Effect of State Regulations on Health Insurance Premiums: A Preliminary Analysis

I mean change when they are harming the consumer and/or the planet. When muti-corporations are killing indigenous people, and destroying the planet in other countries so they can mine, or produce whatever product they are doing, how do you change this? They pay off the Republicans (and some dems) to create laws to protect them, and the run dis-information campaigns across their media outlets to brainwash you.

Now if the government is doing something to harm it's citizens or planet, we can vote these people out of office.

More importantly government doesn't go out to spread dis-information about a policy it wants. It's the private industry that pays off the Repubs (and some dems) to assist in the propagandizing of it's people. When the government actually has times of conscious (like what we're talking about with the health care bill), what is their motive? Who is paying them off?

If you want to know the truth, always follow the money...

I'm not a partisan hack. I'm a philosopher, and I don't care where ideas come from, left right or center. I can think for myself an evaluate them. Is this health care reform perfect? No way, it's not even close. Is it better than what we have now... by at least 1000x.

So I ask you, why are you defending the private sector? I don't even think you understand this bill based on what you're saying.

You need to start thinking for yourself. Your world view was given to you by a think tank. It's the same one that was funded by big pharma and met to discuss words and phrases that would scare people like you the most. Then they could vaguely tie those words into parts of the bill that don't really relate, and depend on your not reading, or really investigating these claims. This kind of propagandizing is it's own industry, and sorry to say but Repubs participate with it more than dems do. Follow the money....

"Pay off the Repubs (and some Dems)" -- Yes, ALL Repub are corrupt but only SOME Dems are. Are you Sealy under a new user name? When are you leftists going to realize they're ALL corrupt? Never is my guess.

"Government doesn't spread disinformation about policy it wants". Are you from this planet? Government doesn't lie? lol, yeah they just write bills that are 1,000+ pages long in language that needs to be translated through a lawyer and then, meh maybe they'll read the damn thing before they pass it. Or not.

"Who is paying them off"? Corporations, lobbyists, special interest groups. Uncle now wants to see the records of the CEO's of the health insurance companies. Are they asking to see the records of the big pharma CEO's? No. Why not? Big pharma cut a deal; big insurance didn't. Notice too, these meetings were done behind closed doors and what Obama promised in return wasn't made public. So much for that transparency he promised. But government never lies, right?

White House Confirms: Deal With Big Pharma Bars Price Negotiations

 

[Immanuel]

"Pay off the Repubs (and some Dems)" -- Yes, ALL Repub are corrupt but only SOME Dems are. Are you Sealy under a new user name? When are you leftists going to realize they're ALL corrupt? Never is my guess.

"Government doesn't spread disinformation about policy it wants". Are you from this planet? Government doesn't lie? lol, yeah they just write bills that are 1,000+ pages long in language that needs to be translated through a lawyer and then, meh maybe they'll read the damn thing before they pass it. Or not.

"Who is paying them off"? Corporations, lobbyists, special interest groups. Uncle now wants to see the records of the CEO's of the health insurance companies. Are they asking to see the records of the big pharma CEO's? No. Why not? Big pharma cut a deal; big insurance didn't. Notice too, these meetings were done behind closed doors and what Obama promised in return wasn't made public. So much for that transparency he promised. But government never lies, right?

White House Confirms: Deal With Big Pharma Bars Price Negotiations

Okay, I'll admit I got a little ticked off at OW, but comparing him to Sealybobo? That's stretching things just a little bit too far.

OW does actually make an argument and a decent one at that. Sealybobo is nothing more than a hack who can't type up his own argument to save his life.

Immie

 

[Zoom-boing]

"Pay off the Repubs (and some Dems)" -- Yes, ALL Repub are corrupt but only SOME Dems are. Are you Sealy under a new user name? When are you leftists going to realize they're ALL corrupt? Never is my guess.

"Government doesn't spread disinformation about policy it wants". Are you from this planet? Government doesn't lie? lol, yeah they just write bills that are 1,000+ pages long in language that needs to be translated through a lawyer and then, meh maybe they'll read the damn thing before they pass it. Or not.

"Who is paying them off"? Corporations, lobbyists, special interest groups. Uncle now wants to see the records of the CEO's of the health insurance companies. Are they asking to see the records of the big pharma CEO's? No. Why not? Big pharma cut a deal; big insurance didn't. Notice too, these meetings were done behind closed doors and what Obama promised in return wasn't made public. So much for that transparency he promised. But government never lies, right?

White House Confirms: Deal With Big Pharma Bars Price Negotiations

Okay, I'll admit I got a little ticked off at OW, but comparing him to Sealybobo? That's stretching things just a little bit too far.

OW does actually make an argument and a decent one at that. Sealybobo is nothing more than a hack who can't type up his own argument to save his life.

Immie

Chill, Immie. It was his 'payoff the Repubs (and some Dems)' remark. I've read those exact words 'Repubs and some Dems' from Sealy many times.

I agree, there is only one Sealy and OW . . . . isn't him. What happened to Sealy anyway?

 

[Immanuel]

Chill, Immie. It was his 'payoff the Repubs (and some Dems)' remark. I've read those exact words 'Repubs and some Dems' from Sealy many times.

I agree, there is only one Sealy and OW . . . . isn't him. What happened to Sealy anyway?

I missed the play on "repubs and Dems" but I always thought Sealy said "repugs and dems"? Couldn't swear to that.

As for what happened to him? Well, I must state that of all the posters who have disappeared, he is not the first one that I worry about. Not that I haven't wondered where he disappeared to.

Immie