I've came to the conclusion that their are two kinds of liberals one of which are liberals that generally do care about helping other people through government action. These liberals I can handle since their motives are truthful. They don't generally plot about how to control people's lives like the nanny staters. These are the other kind of liberals that I can't stand and why I opposed the health care bill. I can debate the merits of public welfare to help the poor but I won't tolerate using that as an excuse to control the existence of another person which is what most welfare are designed to do. Have you ever noticed that welfare programs are designed not to ween people off of them? They have no endgame to them and its almost as if the politicians want people dependent on them for their existence which is why we get "we love you Obama" from the poor and helpless in our society. Ask yourselves what would be wrong with putting limits on welfare so people don't abuses them or become permenant dependents on the system?