The truth about taxes

[Steelplate]

Who do you think pays the import tarriffs Steelplate?

Oh... I know who pays them... It might also cure the problem that Conservatives have with poor people buying frivolous crap. It would also force American Companies to rethink the BOON they've enjoyed by kneecapping our citizens for slave labor... that Slave Labor might not be so attractive to them and they will bring good paying jobs back home.

But you know what? Just the threat of doing this will (I predict) a more balanced trade relationship with other countries. That's all I really want. Actual FREE TRADE instead of rigged trade with countries, such as China.. who also have a rigged monetary system that screws us even more.

 

[saveliberty]

Who do you think pays the import tarriffs Steelplate?

Technically the consumer, but if you make the tariffs so high on a Hershey's bar, that people switch to a Mars Bar and quit buying Hershey's altogether eventually Hershey's is going to have to think twice about going to Mexico.

Immie

In the long run perhaps. In the short term it creates tarriff wars.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

The Times admits taxing the rich is not enough and calls for higher taxes for everyone.

No fucking shit Sherlock, anyone who's been paying attention in the past couple of years already knows this.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

The only person who said that is you.

You're full of shit.

Conservatives here at USMB won't state ONE sacrifice that the Rich should make among the sacrifices that need to be made to straighten out the fiscal mess.

The question has been asked in the past.

Why do you have such difficulty treating everyone equally? All people should pay the same percentage. Exempt the first 30k.

THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A GOOD IDEA

of course - when I point out that the U.S. median household income is 31k, and thus, nearly half of all U.S. households bring in less than 30k and hence nearly half of all U.S. households would be exempt from income taxation under your proposal - I doubt you'll support you're own proposal anymore.


I would actually support such a thing if it treated capital gains as income. It would vastly simplify the tax system (thus saving $$$), while still maintaining most of the burden on the upper class. Heck - most of the wealthy would actulally pay a larger % than they do now (if the cap gains is eliminated).

 

[ladyliberal]

In defense of a progressive tax:

1) The progressive income tax isn't why the tax code is complicated. One could devise a very simple progressive formula that would increase the tax rate as income went up and still be easily calculated. The tax code is complicated mostly because of credits and loopholes.
2) A flat tax couldn't possibly generate the same amount of income as our current tax without drastically inflating poverty. If you implement anti-poverty programs such as shelters and food stamps you're effectively instituting a progressive tax through givebacks. Such an increase in poverty would destroy the economy and hurt even the people who paid less in taxes. Only the very rich would come out better.
3) A flat tax isn't fair. It's not fair to make demands of people without considering their ability to meet those demands. The real unfairness in society is that so many people are born into poverty through no fault of their own-- not that the government taxes them less than others.

 

[Full-Auto]

You're full of shit.

Conservatives here at USMB won't state ONE sacrifice that the Rich should make among the sacrifices that need to be made to straighten out the fiscal mess.

The question has been asked in the past.

Why do you have such difficulty treating everyone equally? All people should pay the same percentage. Exempt the first 30k.

THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A GOOD IDEA

of course - when I point out that the U.S. median household income is 31k, and thus, nearly half of all U.S. households bring in less than 30k and hence nearly half of all U.S. households would be exempt from income taxation under your proposal - I doubt you'll support you're own proposal anymore.


I would actually support such a thing if it treated capital gains as income. It would vastly simplify the tax system (thus saving $$$), while still maintaining most of the burden on the upper class. Heck - most of the wealthy would actulally pay a larger % than they do now (if the cap gains is eliminated).

Why the hell do you think we have other types of taxes.

SHITS AND GIGGLES?

 

[Cuyo]

IMO any politician is terrified to propose tax increases, no matter how drastically and obviously necessary they are. In today's climate they'd be run out of town with torches and pitchforks.

Sorry I am not catching your drift. Do you mean tax increases on the rich or tax increases on everyone else? In some ways I agree that they are terrified of announcing increases on the rich. I am not so certain that holds true for the rest of us.

Unfortunately, the same remains true for proposing spending cuts. The general areas where spending cuts have even been discussed are entitlements and defense. Now you are not going to believe this but I, as a conservative, agree that there should be cuts in the defense budget. I simply don't understand why the Republican morons in Congress won't even discuss such cuts. It's not like there are any real threats of a military invasion against us. I haven't looked this up but if I remember correctly we already spend a considerable amount more than the rest of the world combined. There is room to cut in the defense.

I also believe that entitlements should be looked at and cut. I think we give away way too much money to individuals, corporations, unions, and foreign governments. In times when our economy is healthy, I don't have so much of a problem with the giveaways but we are not healthy today and we should not be giving wealth away. We are a rich enough nation that we should not be allowing our poor to go hungry and without shelter. We should not be giving $4 billion to the oil industry etc. etc. etc.

Note: in both of those paragraphs the word "cut" does not mean elimination. I think many of our programs need to be modified and improved. But cutting does not mean eliminating in its entirety.

And this may be another shocker to you all. As a conservative, I do not oppose tax increases either on the rich or on the rest of us. I see no reason why people who have money should not pay a higher percentage of their wealth to help out this country. What I can't stand is the progressive attitude of vilifying the rich! Honestly, there is little that pisses me off about the progressive movement more than that. I don't blame the rich for my problems and I sure as hell don't blame them for the success or luck that has put them into their situation. I made my choices and I am where I am today because of those choices. It has nothing to do with the fact that Bill Gates succeeded in life.

That being said, I think our current tax code is a piece of shit. I think the Fair Tax would be a hundred times better than what we have now if for no other reason than it would simplify all of our lives. If the fair tax doesn't satisfy the rest of the country and they can show me that it would truly as they say be detrimental to the poor (which I completely disagree with) and the Fair Tax proposal could not be modified to satisfy everyone then I think a flat tax system would be ten times better than what we have today.

Our current tax code does one thing... it encourage the unscrupulous to cheat! Come to think of it, that is why I think so many defend it.

I think two things need to be done to save our economy. 1) we need to become fiscally responsible meaning increase revenue and decrease spending to a point where we can actually reduce the debt (meaning a surplus for the time being) and that will require some damned tough decisions and compromises on both sides of the political spectrum and 2) we need to make America corporate friendly again.

Those two things sound contradictory. How can you make America corporate friendly and increase taxes on them at the same time? I don't believe taxes are the major reason employers are fleeing this country in droves. They are leaving because of the political climate and an environment that is hellbent on strangling them with more and more regulations. Face it. The Obama administration has given an appearance of being anti-business. Whether they are or not, it is the way they come off with their favoritism towards their buddies in the unions.

If we want to save this country we... the unemployed (and I am one of those) need jobs. Politics (and I am not only blaming Democrats) needs to start working on ways to bring those jobs back.

Note: reducing regulations does not mean eliminating them in their entirety. We can all live with reasonableness. What we have today is not reasonable.

This post ended up being a hell of a lot longer than I intended!

Immie

Good post, and I agree with most of it.

When it comes to business, this is where I become a bit more authoritarian. If you are headquartered here, make your money here, and your officers and most sharholders live here, I have no problem with the government saying "You will hire here." Either direct regulation, or tariffs to make it more profitable to hire domestically. Either solution would get UE down and reduce the tax burden on everyone.

Taxes need to be increased. We have an infrastructure built on higher tax rates than we currently have, and you can't pull the rug out from under that infrastructure. I don't mean just roads and whatnot, I mean the entire way we do business. Everyone screams for spending cuts (usually very non-specific) and most conservatives purport that tax increases will damage the economy, completely ignorant of the fact that any spending cuts will also damage the economy. Even cutting what's classified as "Waste" will still damage the economy. The difference is, tax increases *MAY* cause economic slowdown; With spending cuts, it's an immediate mathematical certainty.

Money doesn't die when you send it to the government... It's temporarily furloughed and immediately re-introduced into the private sector... This is what I think some conservatives have a problem grasping.

As far as what we all call 'Entitlements,' I can't say I'm on board for cuts. They are not the problem, and the recipients not only paid in, but all the while paid higher tax rates than we see now. We can find a solution that doesn't Shanghai those individuals. Medicaid the obvious exception, but unless we resolve to deny HC services to current recipients, cuts will not help anyone. We will subsidize their unpaid HC bills through our premiums just like we do with current uninsured individuals.

Conservatives, particularly modern GOP'ers, seem to be stuck in a paradigm that no matter what, if taxes are lower their lives will be better. I disagree. I think there's a middle ground we're not pursuing.

 

[dblack]

In defense of a progressive tax:

1) The progressive income tax isn't why the tax code is complicated. One could devise a very simple progressive formula that would increase the tax rate as income went up and still be easily calculated. The tax code is complicated mostly because of credits and loopholes.

Wholeheartedly agree. Let's get rid of all of those, and then take a look at our tax rates.

2) A flat tax couldn't possibly generate the same amount of income as our current tax without drastically inflating poverty.

It can't? Why not?

3) A flat tax isn't fair. It's not fair to make demands of people without considering their ability to meet those demands. The real unfairness in society is that so many people are born into poverty through no fault of their own-- not that the government taxes them less than others.

This is simply another way of saying the entirety of a free economy is unfair. If it's not fair to make people pay the same taxes, why is it fair to make them pay the same for food? Or any of the other bills we have to pay? By this reasoning, shouldn't grocery stores be required to set their prices as percentages of a given customers' income?

 

[Cuyo]

Who do you think pays the import tarriffs Steelplate?

Stuff costing a little less don't do you much good if you can't find a job.

 

[The Rabbi]

Who do you think pays the import tarriffs Steelplate?

Oh... I know who pays them... It might also cure the problem that Conservatives have with poor people buying frivolous crap. It would also force American Companies to rethink the BOON they've enjoyed by kneecapping our citizens for slave labor... that Slave Labor might not be so attractive to them and they will bring good paying jobs back home.

But you know what? Just the threat of doing this will (I predict) a more balanced trade relationship with other countries. That's all I really want. Actual FREE TRADE instead of rigged trade with countries, such as China.. who also have a rigged monetary system that screws us even more.

Consumers pay the tariff period. Why do you want to increase costs on working families, Steelplateinskalp?

Conservatives don't have a problemw ith poor people buying frivolous crap with their own money. Note the expression, with their own money. I dont know who told you different.
Tariffs would knee cap existing businesses by shutting off foreign markets for them, closing down a major source of revenue.
If Chinese citizens are paying high import taxes then how does that screw us? They are screwing their citizens. You ought to be in favor of that.

Your ideas are poorly thought out and based on emotion and poor information. You sound like a fool.

 

[8537]

Do you really not think that mercantilist countries in Asia don't already have practices in place to drive the balance of trade so that it favors jobs in their countries?

Well, they certainly have policies to drive the balance of trade - primarily, they suppress wages and maintain a low value of their currency.

I don't see either of those being an effective method for US prosperity.

 

[8537]

flat tax for ALL! Rich. poor, corporation or what ever..... no exemptions, no loop holes.

I don't give a shit if you make $1 a year.... the government is going to take its cut.... what ever that % is.

Part of the problem is that 50% of the people in this country pay not one dime in federal tax... but its that same 50% that put their hand out for MORE.

Other than Fuel taxes, FICA, Medicare, Tobacco, Alcohol, and probably a dozen more that I can't think of.

No.... consumption taxes are a choice.... you want it... pay for it right along with the tax.

I am talking income tax.

FICA is an income tax - and, by design, a very regressive income tax.

 

[8537]

Ok... let me ask you something... you say you are unemployed, right? Why aren't you flipping burgers for $7.25/hour? Probably because you can't afford to. What makes you think that getting rid of the Minimum wage is going to help matters? Hell, we could make the minimum wage $.50/hour and have 100% employment... but would that help the situation? Would that help our citizens survive in this God Awfully expensive country?

Did you actually read what I said?

Some (I am not one) might say the minimum wage laws are part of the problem.

Why am I not flipping burgers? I can't stand long enough to sing a long hymm in church without doubling over in pain because of my back. How am I going to stand all day at a cook station and flip burgers?

I don't think getting rid of the minimum wage is necessarily the answer. I am not opposed to the minimum wage. I don't think we should let corporations get away with paying their employees $1.50/hour to flip burgers.

However, we ARE talking about making America competitive with foreign countries when it comes to employment. That means that we must look at where we are not competitive and find solutions to those things.

I don't have solutions yet and even if I did, I am sure many of you would not like those solutions. I'm not running for President.

The way I see it is that if we want to turn this economy around we have to become competitive again no matter what that takes.

Immie

Here's an idea.... put reasonable tariffs on imports. Right now we tax imported products at 2.5%. Other countries charge us 25%. That's ten times the rate we charge them. Even the threat of equalizing those trade barriers would put those other countries in a position where they had to actually be a Free Trade Partner, rather than a rigged trade partner.

I don't think that assessment is right. We import far more than we export, especially into countries such as China. If we charged them 25% on their US imports, all we would do is drive up the costs of most goods we buy. China, on the other hand, imports little final-sales product from us and therefore the tax would have a smaller effect on them.

 

[Steelplate]

Who do you think pays the import tarriffs Steelplate?

Oh... I know who pays them... It might also cure the problem that Conservatives have with poor people buying frivolous crap. It would also force American Companies to rethink the BOON they've enjoyed by kneecapping our citizens for slave labor... that Slave Labor might not be so attractive to them and they will bring good paying jobs back home.

But you know what? Just the threat of doing this will (I predict) a more balanced trade relationship with other countries. That's all I really want. Actual FREE TRADE instead of rigged trade with countries, such as China.. who also have a rigged monetary system that screws us even more.

Consumers pay the tariff period. Why do you want to increase costs on working families, Steelplateinskalp?

Conservatives don't have a problemw ith poor people buying frivolous crap with their own money. Note the expression, with their own money. I dont know who told you different.
Tariffs would knee cap existing businesses by shutting off foreign markets for them, closing down a major source of revenue.
If Chinese citizens are paying high import taxes then how does that screw us? They are screwing their citizens. You ought to be in favor of that.

Your ideas are poorly thought out and based on emotion and poor information. You sound like a fool.

Listen here silly Rabbi...(I mean if we are going to do the butcher the Nickname thing).

Bullshit... All I hear from Conservatives is a mantra of personal responsibility... "If the poor can't make ends meet, maybe they shouldn't buy iPads and instead make their damned house payments and go to the grocery store to feed their kids".

Bullshit.... Tarrifs HERE have nothing to do with Foreign Tarrifs which are already 10X the amount we charge them. They will either lower theirs to a reasonable level, or we will raise ours until an agreeable deal can be made.

China isn't screwing their citizens... they simply aren't buying our products that aren't produced there and forcing OUR Companies to build plants in THEIR Country in order to gain their business. Furthermore.... they require our companies to SHARE OUR intellectual property with them, so that in time... they can make cheap versions of the same product... notice the rash of Counterfeit iPads coming into the country? Probably not.

To think that we have Free Trade with these countries is borderline insanity... Just because Companies get Dirt Cheap labor doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing in the long run and it certainly isn't good for the country.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Why do you have such difficulty treating everyone equally? All people should pay the same percentage. Exempt the first 30k.

THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A GOOD IDEA

of course - when I point out that the U.S. median household income is 31k, and thus, nearly half of all U.S. households bring in less than 30k and hence nearly half of all U.S. households would be exempt from income taxation under your proposal - I doubt you'll support you're own proposal anymore.


I would actually support such a thing if it treated capital gains as income. It would vastly simplify the tax system (thus saving $$$), while still maintaining most of the burden on the upper class. Heck - most of the wealthy would actulally pay a larger % than they do now (if the cap gains is eliminated).

Why the hell do you think we have other types of taxes.

SHITS AND GIGGLES?

what other types? The cap gains tax? We have that one to protect the wealthy. That's how most of them are able to enjoy a lower rate of taxation than you or me.

 

[Steelplate]

Did you actually read what I said?

Some (I am not one) might say the minimum wage laws are part of the problem.

Why am I not flipping burgers? I can't stand long enough to sing a long hymm in church without doubling over in pain because of my back. How am I going to stand all day at a cook station and flip burgers?

I don't think getting rid of the minimum wage is necessarily the answer. I am not opposed to the minimum wage. I don't think we should let corporations get away with paying their employees $1.50/hour to flip burgers.

However, we ARE talking about making America competitive with foreign countries when it comes to employment. That means that we must look at where we are not competitive and find solutions to those things.

I don't have solutions yet and even if I did, I am sure many of you would not like those solutions. I'm not running for President.

The way I see it is that if we want to turn this economy around we have to become competitive again no matter what that takes.

Immie

Here's an idea.... put reasonable tariffs on imports. Right now we tax imported products at 2.5%. Other countries charge us 25%. That's ten times the rate we charge them. Even the threat of equalizing those trade barriers would put those other countries in a position where they had to actually be a Free Trade Partner, rather than a rigged trade partner.

I don't think that assessment is right. We import far more than we export, especially into countries such as China. If we charged them 25% on their US imports, all we would do is drive up the costs of most goods we buy. China, on the other hand, imports little final-sales product from us and therefore the tax would have a smaller effect on them.

Or, bring those jobs back to America and put people to work. Tariffs go up, prices go up, people stop buying, Outsourcing jobs become unattractive, Jobs come back to US.

 

[saveliberty]

Or, bring those jobs back to America and put people to work. Tariffs go up, prices go up, people stop buying, Outsourcing jobs become unattractive, Jobs come back to US.

At a 25% tarriff, do you expect the wage gap and shipping costs to close? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Steelplate]

Or, bring those jobs back to America and put people to work. Tariffs go up, prices go up, people stop buying, Outsourcing jobs become unattractive, Jobs come back to US.

At a 25% tarriff, do you expect the wage gap and shipping costs to close? I seriously doubt it.

You really have no clue how much volume comes into the US, do you? It doesn't have to Close... just make it unfavorable to deal with Communist Countries. Which I find Ironic when your side calls Progressive Americans Commies and the like. you ought to be happy.

 

[8537]

Here's an idea.... put reasonable tariffs on imports. Right now we tax imported products at 2.5%. Other countries charge us 25%. That's ten times the rate we charge them. Even the threat of equalizing those trade barriers would put those other countries in a position where they had to actually be a Free Trade Partner, rather than a rigged trade partner.

I don't think that assessment is right. We import far more than we export, especially into countries such as China. If we charged them 25% on their US imports, all we would do is drive up the costs of most goods we buy. China, on the other hand, imports little final-sales product from us and therefore the tax would have a smaller effect on them.

Or, bring those jobs back to America and put people to work. Tariffs go up, prices go up, people stop buying, Outsourcing jobs become unattractive, Jobs come back to US.

If we "Bring those jobs back to America" the cost of production would skyrocket, leading to fewer people being employed.

Would California solve its economic problems if it was allowed to put tariffs on imports form Oregon?

 

[Sactowndog]

Here's an idea.... put reasonable tariffs on imports. Right now we tax imported products at 2.5%. Other countries charge us 25%. That's ten times the rate we charge them. Even the threat of equalizing those trade barriers would put those other countries in a position where they had to actually be a Free Trade Partner, rather than a rigged trade partner.

Which would make foreign markets more accessible to US goods and open up the jobs market here in the US.

How about we make things easier on SMALL business instead of pandering to Big Business. Conglomerates have gotten so diversified that they can undercut any competition by simply taking a temporary loss in one area and having the rest of their empire support them until their competition is too weak and folds up, or weakens them enough to buy them out. Teddy Roosevelt is probably rolling over in his grave to see all the hard work he put into busting up Monopolies and Trusts go down the drain.

I don't think Tariffs on products is the right idea. We want people who create good products to sell them here. We just want them to invest the capital from their sale back into the US economy rather than exporting the capital somewhere else.

So let them sell the product. If they reinvest the proceeds in the US via wages, capital purchases or investments then all is good. If they export the money out of the country then they would pay a 20% tax.

This model applies to US and non-US companies and doesn't put us in the position of picking winners and losers among products.