The Trinity

[editec]

As a matter of fact you may be denied everlasting life if you do not follow the narrow road. You must believe in God and Jesus, now explain again if all I have to believe is in God, why is there a Jesus at all? Why the whole sending his SON to Earth as a human to atone for our sins? Why the Charade of Jesus at all if it is simply God?

And I keep asking, WHY would Jesus INSIST he was , in fact, NOT God? Why would John refer to the Holy Spirit as a HELPER of God?

And you got this specific information from whom, exactly?

The Bible?

Which Book?

Hey, what you believe with all your heart must be taken on faith.

What others believe just as faithfully is, logically speaking, not less valid.

If you believe that God told you the details of his nature, fine by me.

I believe that nobody knows the answer to the question of the nature of God.

Clearly the Bible can't answer that question in any way that we can count on, since it keeps contradicting itself on this and many issues of faith.

 

[dilloduck]

Understanding how the world works without getting bogged down in fairy tales is not as boring as you might think.

You may have a spirit but I don't. So tending to a neglected spirit doesn't distract me from the more interesting and important aspects of life.

Understanding how the world works is quite an accomplishment. Good work !
I guess you can work on the solar system or milky way next !

 

[Anguille]

And you got this specific information from whom, exactly?

The Bible?

Which Book?

Hey, what you believe with all your heart must be taken on faith.

What others believe just as faithfully is, logically speaking, not less valid.

If you believe that God told you the details of his nature, fine by me.

I believe that nobody knows the answer to the question of the nature of God.

Clearly the Bible can't answer that question in any way that we can count on, since it keeps contradicting itself on this and many issues of faith.

I think I remember RGS starting a thread similar to this one when I first came to this board a few months ago. I'm guessing he has a bee in his bonnet concerning the Trinity and every few months he has to let it lose.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And you got this specific information from whom, exactly?

The Bible?

Which Book?

Hey, what you believe with all your heart must be taken on faith.

What others believe just as faithfully is, logically speaking, not less valid.

If you believe that God told you the details of his nature, fine by me.

I believe that nobody knows the answer to the question of the nature of God.

Clearly the Bible can't answer that question in any way that we can count on, since it keeps contradicting itself on this and many issues of faith.

Did you read the 2 passages I started this thread with? Do I need to write them out for you cause you do not have a Bible?

 

[morpheus]

RetiredGySgt,

Perhaps you mentioned it earlier in the thread (I didn't bother to read that far back), and I'm new to these boards, so I wouldn't know...my question is: are you Christian?

 

[CA95380]

Did you read the 2 passages I started this thread with? Do I need to write them out for you cause you do not have a Bible?

Are you always this grouchy? You know they have stuff that will help you if you are?

Any kind of F-I-B-E-R will work.

 

[Care4all]

Did you read the 2 passages I started this thread with? Do I need to write them out for you cause you do not have a Bible?

you are picking and choosing what verses you want to TRY to make your point and they are out of context...read and post the full chapter and it contradicts what you are trying to say....and are counting on ignorance and out of context script to make your assumptions, I'm afraid...

in fact the entire book of John counters your idea that Jesus is not God made flesh....

nuff said!

Care

 

[RetiredGySgt]

you are picking and choosing what verses you want to TRY to make your point and they are out of context...read and post the full chapter and it contradicts what you are trying to say....and are counting on ignorance and out of context script to make your assumptions, I'm afraid...

in fact the entire book of John counters your idea that Jesus is not God made flesh....

nuff said!

Care

No the whole chapter in fact supports me. I already told you to read all of it. Or did you miss that post?

And yes I am a Christian, though some of you think Mormons are not. I also think that the Jehovah Witness get a lot right also, though several of their restrictions are wrong.

 

[Shogun]

I want you all to know that I THOROUGHLY enjoy watching sects of christians conflict on their beliefs.


ps.. talking shit to RGS doesn't discount his points and scriptural evidence....

 

[Care4all]

No the whole chapter in fact supports me. I already told you to read all of it. Or did you miss that post?

And yes I am a Christian, though some of you think Mormons are not. I also think that the Jehovah Witness get a lot right also, though several of their restrictions are wrong.

Ret sgt,

the BOOK OF JOHN has to be read in full, from the beginning of chapter 1 to the last Chapter....or the 14th chapter where you say Jesus insists he is not God....which it DOES NOT SAY imo, at all...

here is Chapter 1 below...HOW DO YOU get past Chapter 1 and NOT accept that Jesus was the way, the truth and the light? GOD made flesh as it states in this BIBLE chapter?

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

The WORD is GOD, God became flesh....in Jesus, the Christ.

Then, let's go to Chapter 14, in which YOU JUST wanted to know about john 14:24-14:26....

READ THE FULL CHAPTER ret sgt, YOU are neglecting to do such JUST to try to justify what YOU believe....and it twists its meaning imo...

The Diciples, (LIKE YOU), WERE CONFUSED AND DID NOT UNDERSTAND what was going on with Jesus but Jesus went over it, patiently, with the diciples whom He loved....here is your chapter 14 and what is said before the verses you questioned:

John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

I realize it is confusing and hard for any of us to truely understand, after all, even the Diciples did not understand, even with Jesus telling them over and over again that HE AND THE FATHER, WERE ONE....God, manifested in the Flesh.....

This is the Best that i can do, using Jesus's words, to show you that Jesus was God in the flesh....and the holy spirit is God manifested in the Spirit....and YES there is God the father, which is the two other manifistaions, the flesh, the spirit ALONG WITH being the Alpha and the Omega....ALL that is made, one in being with the Father....

please read this commentary on Chapter 14 from Bible Gateway....it explains more.

Care

BibleGateway.com- Commentaries John 14 Jesus Declares Himself to Be the Way to the Father

 

[editec]

Did you read the 2 passages I started this thread with? Do I need to write them out for you cause you do not have a Bible?

Two passages does not an answer make, sport.

that may be enough for you, but there are passages which indicate that the nature of god is singlular and some (from the new testament) which I interpret to mean he is something else.

I won't debate thebible with you other than to tell you that I do not think one can count on it to answer this question because it contradicts itself.

I also won't debate it except to tell you that I think GOD doesn't give a damn what you or I think about this question.

The above is, of course, an entirely faith based view, and one which you have every right to dismiss as easily as I dismiss your faith based view of the issue.

 

[Ravi]

As far as I can tell, RGS is a Catholic-basher.

Pretty amusing, really.

 

[Ravi]

And btw, anyone that believes in apotheosis shouldn't be claiming that believing in the Trinity is worshiping false deities.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ret sgt,

the BOOK OF JOHN has to be read in full, from the beginning of chapter 1 to the last Chapter....or the 14th chapter where you say Jesus insists he is not God....which it DOES NOT SAY imo, at all...

here is Chapter 1 below...HOW DO YOU get past Chapter 1 and NOT accept that Jesus was the way, the truth and the light? GOD made flesh as it states in this BIBLE chapter?



The WORD is GOD, God became flesh....in Jesus, the Christ.

Then, let's go to Chapter 14, in which YOU JUST wanted to know about john 14:24-14:26....

READ THE FULL CHAPTER ret sgt, YOU are neglecting to do such JUST to try to justify what YOU believe....and it twists its meaning imo...

The Diciples, (LIKE YOU), WERE CONFUSED AND DID NOT UNDERSTAND what was going on with Jesus but Jesus went over it, patiently, with the diciples whom He loved....here is your chapter 14 and what is said before the verses you questioned:



I realize it is confusing and hard for any of us to truely understand, after all, even the Diciples did not understand, even with Jesus telling them over and over again that HE AND THE FATHER, WERE ONE....God, manifested in the Flesh.....

This is the Best that i can do, using Jesus's words, to show you that Jesus was God in the flesh....and the holy spirit is God manifested in the Spirit....and YES there is God the father, which is the two other manifistaions, the flesh, the spirit ALONG WITH being the Alpha and the Omega....ALL that is made, one in being with the Father....

please read this commentary on Chapter 14 from Bible Gateway....it explains more.

Care

BibleGateway.com- Commentaries John 14 Jesus Declares Himself to Be the Way to the Father

Your own quoted material lays your claims down as uniformed and incorrect. Why would he say "1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.".

Further one can not enter Heaven in the Flesh. So Jesus was not telling them he was God, he was telling them that since they know him and he is like God, they would also know God. Read John 3:13 "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man." Further what sense does this make if God and Jesus are one....
John 3:16 " For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Further read John 3:17 and 18.

All through out John it is clear that Jesus and God are NOT one entity.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Two passages does not an answer make, sport.

that may be enough for you, but there are passages which indicate that the nature of god is singlular and some (from the new testament) which I interpret to mean he is something else.

I won't debate thebible with you other than to tell you that I do not think one can count on it to answer this question because it contradicts itself.

I also won't debate it except to tell you that I think GOD doesn't give a damn what you or I think about this question.

The above is, of course, an entirely faith based view, and one which you have every right to dismiss as easily as I dismiss your faith based view of the issue.

Those are just the two that are clearest about it. All through out John it is clear God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct entities. As for God not caring? You may want to reread your Bible. He cares what we believe.

 

[editec]

Those are just the two that are clearest about it. All through out John it is clear God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct entities. As for God not caring? You may want to reread your Bible. He cares what we believe.

Then GOD's given us an operating manual that must have lost a LOT in the translation.

 

[Care4all]

Your own quoted material lays your claims down as uniformed and incorrect. Why would he say "1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.".

let me answer this part FIRST....read what the (a) says...which answers your question...

a. John 14:1 Or, ''.....You trust in God; trust also in me.''

gotta read the fine print ret sgt....

care

 

[RetiredGySgt]

let me answer this part FIRST....read what the (a) says...which answers your question...

a. John 14:1 Or, ''.....You trust in God; trust also in me.''

gotta read the fine print ret sgt....

care

Why again would he tell them to "ALSO" trust in him, if he is in fact God? He already told them to trust in God.

 

[Eightball]

Then GOD's given us an operating manual that must have lost a LOT in the translation.

The LDS church teaches that after many translations the present bible is corrupted. This is why they believe that a new corrected revelation needed to come to a latter day prophet.....i.e. Joseph Smith Jr..........and the onward succession of latter day prophets on up to their present LDS president.

Sadly, the whole premise of needing a new revelation flys in the face of an Omnipotent God. An Omnipotent God has no problem protecting the accuracy of His scripture throughout the centuries through the many re-copies via scribes.

In fact the the strict Jewish tradition of copying scripture was so well perfected, that the Dead Sea Scoll's nearly complete copy of Isaiah, is word for word, the same as our present day translations. Now that is a perfect example of God's omnipotent protection.

The LDS's Book of Mormon only dates back to the early 1800's, yet it has gone through a myriad of changes.

Also the credentials of Joseph Smith Jr. as a prophet are suspect, as he lived the life of a treasure hunter with J.S. Sr., his father back in New York, before coming up with this idea of leading people Westward with their "new" improved religion that trumps biblical Christianity.

If the bible believing world were to accept Mormon doctrine as the "truth" then we have a very weak, unpredictable God, who lacks omnipotence, and ability to protect His Word, throughout the centuries. I.E. He could not stop man from corrupting it, and needed J.S. Jr. to receive a new revelation out of a hat, via a sears stone, and it was all written in a new kind of Egyptian Heiroglyphics unknown to even present day researchers/linguists. Samples back in the 1800's of this new Egyptian Heiroglyphics were sent to a respected scholar in New York, and were subsequently refuted as any new language, but were plaguerized from bits and pieces of Egyptian and other languages. A regular "hodge-podge" that is believe to have come from a current day of that time calendar.

Also the dimensions of the golden plates that J.S. Jr. received with all the new revelations of God, were allegedly carried at a run for a great distance to some other church members and then hidden. They have never been found, these very important evidences of God revealing a new revelations to man via J.S. Jr..

J.S. Jr. gave the dimensions of the golden plates, which actually ruled out his carrying them at a fast gate, as they would have been too heavy for a man to physically accomplish.

Also keep in mind that while J.S. Jr. was living in New York and not "called" by god to lead a people with the "real truth" and not the corrupted truth of the present church, as LDS members are taught, he lived a sordid life of scamming folks. This is all documented, but not kept or agreed-upon by LDS officially. Because much of Joseph Smith's and the founding history of LDS is on Christian websites, or Cult-watch websites, the LDS church claims to be "victims" of vicious propagandized attacks upon them.

They/LDS indeed use the King James version of the bible, but if you "press them" they will admit that their Book of Mormon, Jounal of Discourses, Doctrine of Covenants, and other Mormon venerated doctrine, trumps the King James where there is differences in doctrine.

The standard sign of a Christian or non-Christian cult is what that religion does with "Jesus Christ". Do they totally accept Him as the Son of God, uncreated, and having existed for eternity past through the future eternally, the Alpha and Omega, and God revealing Himself to man in incarnate flesh to identify with man 100% so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for humanities fallen, sinful nature that comes from the loins of Adam. Remember that Jesus referred to Himself as, "I AM". That is why the Jews wanted to stone Him to death. The admitted with their own mouths that He/Jesus claimed to be God. Was Jesus a lunatic/liar? Hardly. The truth can hurt, and it can turn our paradyms of belief upside down. We fight, do flight, or we accept.

Does that suspect(whatever it may be) religion believe in the distinct personages of God in triune nature, in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit(Holy Ghost/Spirit)?

The LDS who come to your door will say yes, but if you press them on the issue they will retract or alter what their "yes" means.

They believe that Jesus was an actual result of God having sexual relations with Mary. That was taught by their latter day prophets. God basically inseminated Mary. They believe that if you are a very good Mormon, after death you too, can become an Adam of your own new world, like the Adam of the K.J. bible. In some ways, their belief system is very similar to Scientology, only they don't refer to planets like Nob, as a place where human ancestors came from to populate planet earth.

Anyway, deep down, the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the K.J. bible that Mormons carry with them from door to door. They only carry that K.J. bible to give validity to their belief system before your average Joe/Jane American at the doorstep, as most of us have some Christian background/understanding, and recognize the bible with some respect or validity.

The Book of Mormon although has it's own titled books, they take bits and pieces from the bible, and intermingle it with their own J.S. Jr. added story or information. You might find yourself very weary if you try to read the book of Mormon.

Mormons believe that the American Indians are that lost tribe of Israel. DNA-wise, it hasn't proved out.

Also they/Mormons teach that metalurgy was developed here on the North and South American continents at or before it happened in Europe/Asia/Africa.

To this day, archeologists have found no evidence of the American Indian or his very early predecessors having developed metalurgy; i.e. copper, tin, bronze, Iron, etc...

There are so many "holes" or incongrueties in LDS history that was given to J.S. Jr. to the world about North America and it's early inhabitants.

One important fact to remember, that was held to very high standards in Israel; all a prophet of God has to do is prophesy one false prophecy, and he/she is a false prophet, and was to be stoned or killed in some way. That's how important is was to God, that His truth be protected.

Trully their were very belligerent prophets of old like Jonah, and others, but they didn't false prophesy.

Josesph Smith Jr. has false prophesied left and right. Just the fact that African Americans were deemed unfit for the the Mormon priesthood, as J.S. Jr. taught that people of the negroid race were unclean and from Cain's race. In the late 20 century, the LDS church had a new revelation from god, that it was now ok to allow people of the negroid race into the LDS priesthood.

God did an "oops", and had to correct Himself.

Also Joseph Smith Jr. was not martyred for his beliefs, but was killed while having a shoot out in a midwest town where he had been jailed for damaging the local newspaper's printing press. He had broken into the newspapers office and attempted to destroy the press, because that newspaper had been printing negative things about J.S. Jr. and his band of followers. This is documented in press archives in the state of illinois. J.S. Jr. was escaping a mob of towns people that were about to lynch him, and was given access to a gun to defend or shoot it out with them. He died in a shoot-out.

The official LDS version does not coincide with official news accounts archived in illinois.

I will be subsequently called a liar and a hater of Mormons for writing this, but that is far from the truth.

LDS are taught that us bible Christians hate them. This is typical cult technique.........."We are victims".

Actually, there are many Christian ministries directed towards the LDS.........One is Ex-Mormons for Jesus.

These are bible Christians comprised of many ex-LDS members who are burdened with compassion towards their friends who still are in the LDS church.

The LDS will refute the many statements that rebuttal LDS doctrine in respect to bible doctrine, yet when "push comes to shove" they will become silent when pressed to prove that they are doctrinal in respect to the bible.

Of course, their strong defense is that the present-day bible is not the same scripture, intent, or communication that God sent down to man thousands of years ago. It is corrupted through man's fallibility of re-translating over and over again.

Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls refuted man's corrupting the scriptures through the myriads of years.

Also, remember again, that the bible teaches that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. The LDS church teaches or inferrs through their attack of the validity of present day translations of the bible.....i.e. King James.....etc. that God lacks greatly in the area of "Omnipotence" or the ability to protect and or keep His Word to man intact in it's entirety.
*******
Burning Bosom:

This is a very important part of Mormonism. The "burn bosom" is an experience that most Mormons will use to give creedence to their religion being factual or of God.

Often this experience happens as a dream or visual thing or communication that tells the recipient that "Mormonism is the truth!". Many Mormons will share how this experience involved a long deceased relative of great significants coming to them in a dream and telling them that "Mormonism is the truth!". Well, in most cases this super-natural experience "cements" a person's belief that Mormonism is the way and truth. In fact it this spiritual communication is so distinct and important that it trumps all the obvious evidences that Mormonism is not God inspired.

Now in Romans there is a verse that succinctly says that Truth, comes not from anything but the scripture. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word/Scripture of God." In other words, burning bosom experiences cannot be relied upon to validate God's truth. All visions, messages, or nuances that are spiritual or outside of the norm must be "tested" against God's Word. If they don't pass muster they are to be rejected.

Sadly, the Mormon church has gathered a multitude of members based on the "burning bosom" experience as a validation of Mormonism being the truth and only true system of belief in God.

The bible says, "Test the spirits!". Josephy Smith Jr. didn't test this "angel" called Moroni, by asking Moroni, "Is Jesus the one and only Son of God, and is He God in the Flesh?" If J.S. had done so, Moroni would have disappeared from J.S. Jr. vision in a nano-second. He didn't test the spirits in lieu of God's Word. Thence we have built a monolith of a belief system upon this founder, who ignored the most important aspect of Christian truth. "Test the message and test the message sender".

The bible teaches that there is a spirit world, of deceivers that are trying to deceive humanity into following false gospels. Mormonism is built upon "subjective feelings" via the burn bosom experience...........From thence onward the initiate is "hooked" if they don't recall and test this experience in lieu of God's Word the bible.

When those fine well dressed men with white shirts, dark slacks, and neckties come to your door and challenge you to pray and ask God if Mormonism is the truth, don't bite, as this is the first opening or gateway to allowing spirits to influence and affect your psyche via a "burning bosom" experience. We are not suppose to pray to God to validate his reality, but are supposed to go to His Word, that has been handed down through the centuries, totally intact, because of his onminipotence, and see what He says. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God; not faith cometh by feeling/seeing/experiencing/dreaming.

 

[AllieBaba]

Well, when a lot of religions pray they pray to "The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost."


I've always thought of them as 3 different Entities, each having a purpose of their own.

They are all God, they simply perform different jobs.

The Holy Spirit is the part of God that enters into us through daily devotion, when we request Jesus to serve as our savior, and who compels us to please God. The Holy Spirit is contained within the bible, which is why believers understand that in just reading the word of God, they are being touched by the Holy Spirit, who will imbue them with understanding and enlightenment.

Jesus is the son of God...but at the same time God himself, and God as man. He was with God in the beginning, but God is the head of the trinity and as such is Jesus' father. As God's son, although he is actually God as well, he does God's bidding and exists as an example and a savior and was designated to take all of God's wrath and punishment upon his head, so that those who believe would no longer be subject to condemnation for their sin, which we cannot escape.

God is the creator and the father. Jesus intercedes for mankind, having been human himself, and the Holy Spirit enters into us and helps us to walk the path and understand the word and will of God.

But they are still part and parcel of God. They do not have separate will, they do not sin, and they are all three holy.

It's a difficult concept and one which our human minds can only grasp at the most basic level.