The Trinity

[Care4all]

That still doesn't make Jesus God. Again explain all the passages in the Bible, like the one I provided, where JESUS insists he is NOT God. God Created Jesus. how does one create themselves?

the Bible specifically states, IN THE BEGINNING was the WORD, the WORD was with god, the WORD was GOD.....then it goes to say that Jesus is the WORD.....

so not a mention of God CREATING Jesus in the Beginning, because God and Jesus are one and the same in this passage....

Then in Genesis, it says in the Begining the Spirit of God hovered over the Waters...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

This is speaking of the Holy Spirit of God as being GOD.

yes, i can understand how this is confusing, but the ONLY WAY to justify it all or to even try to make sense of it all imho....is to presume a Triune God...

God as the WORD or the son, and God as the HOLY SPIRIT.....and of course God as the Father figure also....

But as editec* states, what does it matter if the underlying message of Jesus Christ is understood?

also in Genesis,

 

[Care4all]

ret sgt, you are putting LIMITATION on God's abilities imho...saying He could NOT be who He says he is, just because you don't understand it....

 

[editec]

I'm still trying to figure out how Mary got pregnant without having sex.

Immaculate deception?

Hey, I'm not entirely sure...I was out of town that weekend.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

No, it doesn't.

If people are mistakeningly thinking that God has one aspect or three because they cannot be sure, I do not think GOD is going to be pissed at those who got it wrong.

Don't you think if it REALLY mattered, God would have made it very clear?

Now, if you are a practicing Jew, then of course, the answer to the question is quite clear.

but if you suscribe to one of the various sects of Christianity?

Well then, the question seems to me to not be especially important.

So, if you are a Christian, my question still remains...

What difference does it make if you worship a God, but aren't ENTIRELY clear about his specific nature?

Like I asked before: Is knowing the answer to this ON THE TEST?

If you get it wrong, will you go to hell, or something?

As a matter of fact you may be denied everlasting life if you do not follow the narrow road. You must believe in God and Jesus, now explain again if all I have to believe is in God, why is there a Jesus at all? Why the whole sending his SON to Earth as a human to atone for our sins? Why the Charade of Jesus at all if it is simply God?

And I keep asking, WHY would Jesus INSIST he was , in fact, NOT God? Why would John refer to the Holy Spirit as a HELPER of God?

 

[dilloduck]

As a matter of fact you may be denied everlasting life if you do not follow the narrow road. You must believe in God and Jesus, now explain again if all I have to believe is in God, why is there a Jesus at all? Why the whole sending his SON to Earth as a human to atone for our sins? Why the Charade of Jesus at all if it is simply God?

And I keep asking, WHY would Jesus INSIST he was , in fact, NOT God? Why would John refer to the Holy Spirit as a HELPER of God?

He didn't want people to erroneously believe that he (Jesus) was the entire package. There was far more to God than what people saw in him. Gotta play to your audience.

 

[Care4all]

As a matter of fact you may be denied everlasting life if you do not follow the narrow road. You must believe in God and Jesus, now explain again if all I have to believe is in God, why is there a Jesus at all? Why the whole sending his SON to Earth as a human to atone for our sins? Why the Charade of Jesus at all if it is simply God?

And I keep asking, WHY would Jesus INSIST he was , in fact, NOT God? Why would John refer to the Holy Spirit as a HELPER of God?

WHERE does Jesus INSIST he is NOT God? No where does He insist he is not God....but HE does say that He (the son)and the Father are one and the same IN THE BIBLE....which I showed you.

He was God made flesh....the Word made Flesh, and the Word is God, so the Bible states....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I suggest you read Revelation 21 and 22. Adding or subtracting from the Holy Scriptures is condemned. Further Jehovah and Jesus are both mentioned and they are not the same.

Why is it important? For me it is important because one must spread the word where one can. Further these discussions encourage me to read more of the Bible, to search it and read it.

I have been advised to simply allow those that refuse to hear the truth or twist it, to simply accept that not everyone will learn, not everyone will find and follow the right path. A narrow path indeed.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

WHERE does Jesus INSIST he is NOT God? No where does He insist he is not God....but HE does say that He (the son)and the Father are one and the same IN THE BIBLE....which I showed you.

He was God made flesh....the Word made Flesh, and the Word is God, so the Bible states....

Try reading the starting passage I provided. He states his words are not HIS words, but those of God. Now if he WERE God, they would in fact still be HIS words.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Read John 14:1,2,6,7. In fact read all of John 14. Do not add nor subtract from what is said, read it and hopefully understand.

 

[Eightball]

here's just one of them:


John 10

29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Be a Christian or not........That last part of verse 33 is very clear. How anyone could conclude that there is no biblical evidence for the triune Godhead..........well, I just don't understand.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Be a Christian or not........That last part of verse 33 is very clear. How anyone could conclude that there is no biblical evidence for the triune Godhead..........well, I just don't understand.

He is NOT saying he is God, he is saying they have the same belief.

If I were to say I and my Father are one on some issue, would you then believe I was my father?

 

[Eightball]

Try reading the starting passage I provided. He states his words are not HIS words, but those of God. Now if he WERE God, they would in fact still be HIS words.

What your missing, is that Jesus voluntarily accepted with His incarnate birth, the many limitations of man, so that His life would totally identify with man. This was why Paul referred to Him as the second Adam in Romans.

Just because Jesus couldn't tell or know the times dates of future events is not evidence that He lacked divinity of the Godhead. It is throughout scripture that He voluntarily gave up his omniscience to be that perfect human sacrifice in our place.

When He ascended to Heaven, He re-asserted His complete majesty of divinity, which was omniscience, omnipotency, and omnipresence.

While on earth He constantly referred to God as His strength to direct man to do the same. This was not evidence that He was helpless because He lacked being God, He had to come to earth and fill the role that the first Adam lacked and save mankind.

Jesus could by His very words call down myriads of angels to take Him off the cross, but He had a mission of importance to all of humanity to fullfill. God suffered and died, and was ressurrected...........Yes, a mystery, to our human minds that need explanations that meet the criteria of the laws of earthly life.........., but the Godhead and how it works is very mysterious. How God can be one, yet be three in nature and individuality, is puzzling to how it's mechanics can be, but we are finite in mind, and don't have the capacity to understand this principle in full.

We, by faith, and by scriptural study, without preconceived agenda's observe this mysterious relationship, where John says the Word was God, and the Word became flesh(humanity). To become flesh, Jesus who sat at the right hand of god, voluntarily, in some mysterious way gave up his powers and relied totally on God the Father's provisions, during his 33 earthly years.

He could have walked of the cross and bashed the soldiers the Pharisees, and all the mockers, but His calling and mission were for them and us, and had to be completed.

 

[Eightball]

He is NOT saying he is God, he is saying they have the same belief.

If I were to say I and my Father are one on some issue, would you then believe I was my father?

How in the world to you conclude this in the light of John saying the Word was God, and also the Word became flesh.......? You and I know that the Word is referring to Christ, that is self explanatory in the Book of John.

 

[Anguille]

Why is it polytheistic?

I don't think either Islam or Christianity are truly monotheistic. They each have their saints and martyrs.

Christians who believe that God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are separate entities are then worshiping more than one god.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't think either Islam or Christianity are truly monotheistic. They each have their saints and martyrs.

Christians who believe that God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are separate entities are then worshiping more than one god.

No we are not, we do not worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit. However those that believe the three are one ARE worshiping them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How in the world to you conclude this in the light of John saying the Word was God, and also the Word became flesh.......? You and I know that the Word is referring to Christ, that is self explanatory in the Book of John.

You are adding to it, it does not say what you want it to. It is clear through out the Bible that Jesus is NOT God. Nor is the Holy Spirit. Again why would he DENY he was God? Why would he keep telling his followers he was the Son of God? Why, in Revelations, would he be outside the city showing it while sitting inside on the throne. How could he be inside the City while leading the Armies of Heaven?

It takes suspending belief to come to the conclusion the three are one. You have to accept that Jesus is LYING in order to believe he is both the Son and God at the same time, since he STATES he is NOT God.

 

[dilloduck]

I don't think either Islam or Christianity are truly monotheistic. They each have their saints and martyrs.

Christians who believe that God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are separate entities are then worshiping more than one god.

A pretty common perception from someone who doesn't take it seriously enough to bother trying. Some people who accept that there is a spiritual nature to themselves spend time trying to understand it. Some try to act on those principals as much as they can. Some end up looking like hypocrites because they think they have it all down pat.
If you think Christianity is not monothiestic, it's fine with me. It will be what it is in spite of all attempts to define it.

 

[Anguille]

No we are not, we do not worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit. However those that believe the three are one ARE worshiping them.

I should have said, people who worship Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God and also consider them separate entities are polytheists. If the three are considered as one entity and the religion does not worship saints or martyrs or pixies or fairies either, then I don't think you can call it polytheistic.

All I know is that being an atheist makes your life a whole lot less complicated.

 

[dilloduck]

I should have said, people who worship Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God and also consider them separate entities are polytheists. If the three are considered as one entity and the religion does not worship saints or martyrs or pixies or fairies either, then I don't think you can call it polytheistic.

All I know is that being an atheist makes your life a whole lot less complicated.

and boring. If your spirit is really neglected then it can get pretty complicated.

 

[Anguille]

and boring. If your spirit is really neglected then it can get pretty complicated.

Understanding how the world works without getting bogged down in fairy tales is not as boring as you might think.

You may have a spirit but I don't. So tending to a neglected spirit doesn't distract me from the more interesting and important aspects of life.