The tragedy of religious conservatism

[Bullypulpit]

The tragedy of religious fundamentalism lies in its effects not only on its adherents, but also the effects upon its percieved adversaries.

By its very nature, religious fundamentalism leads its adherents to beleive they are the "chosen" people of their favorite deity. This engenders a false sense of superiorty over those who aren't followers of their particular faith. In turn, this leads to the marginalization and ultimate dehumanization of those who don't follow a particular thread of religious thought.

This arrogance and hubris leads to violent attack upon any scholl of thought not in agreement with it. The religious fundamentalists see themselves as being under attack from all sides because they are the "chosen people" of whatever deity they worship. Religious fundamentalism leads to nothing but conflict...Its fruit is anguish, its yield is strife.

SO the practitioners of a given form of religious fundamentalism, ultimately forget what the teachings of their given religions are. Instead, they adopt a seige mentality driven wholly by the egos of their spiritual leaders. For those who are not followers of a given school of religious thought, they experience growing attacks from that fundamentalist religion, and begin to press back, which only heightens the paranoia and seige mentality of the fundamentalists. It is a vicious cycle that bodes ill for all caught up in it.

 

[Merlin1047]

The tragedy of religious fundamentalism lies in its effects not only on its adherents, but also the effects upon its percieved adversaries.

By its very nature, religious fundamentalism leads its adherents to beleive they are the "chosen" people of their favorite deity. This engenders a false sense of superiorty over those who aren't followers of their particular faith. In turn, this leads to the marginalization and ultimate dehumanization of those who don't follow a particular thread of religious thought.

I'm sorry, but I've got to hit the "Bullshit" button on this one.

The Jews are the only people who see themselves as "Chosen" and they have a biblical basis for that claim. Whether that is still the case today is a fact known only to God.

First you fail to define your terms in any accurate manner. What exactly is "religous fundamentalism"? Is it simply an adherence to biblical teaching? Do you apply the term to all Christians? Or do you refer to cultists like the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones' misguided flock? Or perhaps you reference the folks who attempted to go comet riding a few years ago. If you refence the Moslem faith, I would have to cede your point, but you did not specify that. Instead, it appears to me that you are attempting to paint all adherents to a religion with the same broad brush.

No major Christian religion sees itself or its adherents as "chosen". As a matter of fact, the exact opposite is true. Christianity teaches that only a devotion to the teachings of Christ will please God and only the salvation given to man by the death of Christ will open the gates of heaven. The truth is that Christianity teaches quite the opposite of the "chosen" premise which you wrongfully advance in your post. Christianity teaches that man cannot become worthy to enter heaven simply as a result of his own efforts. To enter heaven, we must rely on the mercy of the Almighty and if we are allowed to enter, it will be because Christ sacrificed his life in atonement for our sins.

This arrogance and hubris leads to violent attack upon any scholl of thought not in agreement with it. The religious fundamentalists see themselves as being under attack from all sides because they are the "chosen people" of whatever deity they worship. Religious fundamentalism leads to nothing but conflict...Its fruit is anguish, its yield is strife.

Again the vague and non-specific rhetoric in your post makes it difficult to address the issue with accuracy. Christians see themselves as being under attack for a very good reason - because it's true. Secularists and atheists are mounting attacks on religous freedom on an ever-widening front. But apparently you seem to feel that Christians must accept this meekly because being a secular atheist yourself, your viewpoint must the the correct one. You pervert the "separation of Church" principle to mean that religion must be excised from the public domain. The founding fathers intended that freedom of religion be guaranteed to every American. They intended that the government should be prohibited from establishing a national church. They did not intend to allow a minority of obnoxious zealots to drive Christians underground. They never intended any mention of God to be illegal in the public domain.

You accuse Christians of arrogance and hubris, yet you yourself are guilty of the very thing which you denounce. Somehow it offends your sensibilities that many in our nation worship God and want to practice their religion and you attack that armed with nothing other than an irrational opinion. We do not seek to force that religion on those not inclined to practice it. We do not seek to make the public practice of atheism illegal, yet secularists seek to make the public practice of Christianity a crime - or at least an act which violates the civil rights of non-believers.

SO the practitioners of a given form of religious fundamentalism, ultimately forget what the teachings of their given religions are. Instead, they adopt a seige mentality driven wholly by the egos of their spiritual leaders. For those who are not followers of a given school of religious thought, they experience growing attacks from that fundamentalist religion, and begin to press back, which only heightens the paranoia and seige mentality of the fundamentalists. It is a vicious cycle that bodes ill for all caught up in it.

So I suppose that, in your view anything demanded by the anti-religion element is acceptable and any resistance by Christians to the erosion of the right of freedom of religion is wrong. Somehow you have convinced yourself that "religous fundamentalists" are attacking non-adherents simply because they fail to accept the teachings of a given religion. Again, had you limited your discussion to Islam, you would be at least partially correct. But since you attacked all religions, that makes your argument so substantially in error that it is patently ridiculous. Christians may attempt to convince atheists to accept the teachings of Christ for the salvation of their souls, but that is simply presenting an argument. When did that turn into a crime? How many atheists have been attacked by Christians? How many atheists have been kidnapped and dragged to Christian churches, tied to a pew, and forced to listen to the sermon? How many atheists have been deprived of their right NOT to believe in God by the efforts of Christian zealots?

The vicious cycle to which you refer does indeed exist. But it's engine is the intolerance of the secularists and atheists who are somehow offended by their fellow citizens practicing their constitutional right to worship as they choose.

I think I know what your ultimate aim is. You want homosexuals out of the closet and Christians in it.

Forget it, Bubba. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think I know what your ultimate aim is. You want homosexuals out of the closet and Christians in it.

Forget it, Bubba. Ain't gonna happen.

:clap1: :clap1:

 

[UsaPride]

:clap1: :clap1:

I second that!!
Awesome post, Merlin!!

 

[MrMarbles]

The tragedy of religious fundamentalism lies in its effects not only on its adherents, but also the effects upon its percieved adversaries.

By its very nature, religious fundamentalism leads its adherents to beleive they are the "chosen" people of their favorite deity. This engenders a false sense of superiorty over those who aren't followers of their particular faith. In turn, this leads to the marginalization and ultimate dehumanization of those who don't follow a particular thread of religious thought.

This arrogance and hubris leads to violent attack upon any scholl of thought not in agreement with it. The religious fundamentalists see themselves as being under attack from all sides because they are the "chosen people" of whatever deity they worship. Religious fundamentalism leads to nothing but conflict...Its fruit is anguish, its yield is strife.

SO the practitioners of a given form of religious fundamentalism, ultimately forget what the teachings of their given religions are. Instead, they adopt a seige mentality driven wholly by the egos of their spiritual leaders. For those who are not followers of a given school of religious thought, they experience growing attacks from that fundamentalist religion, and begin to press back, which only heightens the paranoia and seige mentality of the fundamentalists. It is a vicious cycle that bodes ill for all caught up in it.

He's right. Organized religion forces you to think your right. And in order to be right, everyone else must be wrong, for if not, you are wrong, and if you are wrong, why follow that religion? "In the name of God" is the greatest killer and the easiest. It is to easy to hate those who are supposed to be of lesser value to you. This is not just christianity but all religions. Religion is not bad, unfortunatley organized religion is run by Man, and Man is greedy, corruptable and as inheritantly evil as they are good.

 

[5stringJeff]

He's right. Organized religion forces you to think your right. And in order to be right, everyone else must be wrong, for if not, you are wrong, and if you are wrong, why follow that religion? "In the name of God" is the greatest killer and the easiest. It is to easy to hate those who are supposed to be of lesser value to you. This is not just christianity but all religions. Religion is not bad, unfortunatley organized religion is run by Man, and Man is greedy, corruptable and as inheritantly evil as they are good.

First, define "organized religion." Does that include everything except for someone's own interpretation of God/nature/spirituality?

Second, why the aversion to right and wrong? Does it not make sense that there is a certain way that the supernatural, or the after life, functions?

Third, not all religions teach hate. In fact, Christianity specifically teaches us to love our enemies.

 

[Merlin1047]

He's right. Organized religion forces you to think your right. And in order to be right, everyone else must be wrong, for if not, you are wrong, and if you are wrong, why follow that religion?

What a total load. Try thinking with something higher up on your body than your sphincter.

 

[dmp]

What a total load. Try thinking with something higher up on your body than your sphincter.

Actually he's right on target. For ANY belief system to be worth believing, the follower must believe they have the only single way (to whatever). From a christian perspective, to allow that any 'other' faith (in anyone but Christ) could lead towards eternal salvation means Christ is a liar. There exists no room to accept the very human idea that 'many paths lead to God' - for 'narrow is the way' and 'only a few will find it'...

would you believe in something you knew was a lie or could be a lie?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Also bully, the hallmark of american christianity is to abandon the personality based church hierarchies of old europe. Nearly all various american christian reform movements teach this, as well as a personal and very thorough study of the bible on a personal level, as well as a personal relationship with god, circumventing worldly hierarchies. Something to chew on.

 

[Merlin1047]

Actually he's right on target. For ANY belief system to be worth believing, the follower must believe they have the only single way (to whatever). From a christian perspective, to allow that any 'other' faith (in anyone but Christ) could lead towards eternal salvation means Christ is a liar. There exists no room to accept the very human idea that 'many paths lead to God' - for 'narrow is the way' and 'only a few will find it'...

would you believe in something you knew was a lie or could be a lie?

Oh come on, D - you know better. Yes, I believe that Christianity is the way to salvation. That is my PERSONAL belief. I do not seek to force it on you. Do I believe you are wrong if you do not believe in Christ? Yes. So what? How does that offend you or how does that infringe on your freedoms?

This country has a tolerance for all religious beliefs - including those who believe all religions to be wrong. Simply because Christians believe that they follow the true teachings of Christ does not make us inclined to take over the world, nor does it make us intolerant of those who choose not to believe as we do.

So why does it make you so nervous that you feel obliged to paint Christians as close-minded bigots whose aim is to force all other religions into obscurity?

 

[dilloduck]

The fate of ones' immortal soul appears to ellicit an incredible amount of passion in religious discourse. I believe it to be human nature to seek out those whose beliefs are similar in order to substantiate ones' own beliefs and protect one from others who seek to disprove it. With the world becoming smaller and the clash of culture, naturally the debate over the fate of the soul heats up. Secularists have thier own dogma but must deny it in order to attack established religion and use the "law" in effort to avoid the religious implications of thier actions. While I understand that there are a multitude of ways that people "believe", I just have one question. Is all this passion driven by faith or fear?

 

[dmp]

Oh come on, D - you know better. Yes, I believe that Christianity is the way to salvation. That is my PERSONAL belief. I do not seek to force it on you. Do I believe you are wrong if you do not believe in Christ? Yes. So what? How does that offend you or how does that infringe on your freedoms?

This country has a tolerance for all religious beliefs - including those who believe all religions to be wrong. Simply because Christians believe that they follow the true teachings of Christ does not make us inclined to take over the world, nor does it make us intolerant of those who choose not to believe as we do.

So why does it make you so nervous that you feel obliged to paint Christians as close-minded bigots whose aim is to force all other religions into obscurity?

that's a different point. The part you were addressing was his 'every religion thinks THEY are the only people who are right' comment. He's quite, uh, right. "Allowing" for others to be 'wrong', but loving them anyway is an entirely different subject.

 

[Merlin1047]

The fate of ones' immortal soul appears to ellicit an incredible amount of passion in religious discourse. I believe it to be human nature to seek out those whose beliefs are similar in order to substantiate ones' own beliefs and protect one from others who seek to disprove it. With the world becoming smaller and the clash of culture, naturally the debate over the fate of the soul heats up. Secularists have thier own dogma but must deny it in order to attack established religion and use the "law" in effort to avoid the religious implications of thier actions. While I understand that there are a multitude of ways that people "believe", I just have one question. Is all this passion driven by faith or fear?

Somehow it appears that secularists and atheists are incapable of distinguishing the difference between disagreement and intolerance.

Simply because I am a Christian does not cause me to feel superior to an atheist, or a Bhuddist or a Hindu. Do I believe that my belief is the true and correct path? Yes. Do I believe that atheists, Bhuddists and Hindus will rot in hell? I believe that decision will be made by the Almighty when the time comes and I have no way of knowing to any reasonable degree of certainty what that decision will be.

 

[UsaPride]

The fate of ones' immortal soul appears to ellicit an incredible amount of passion in religious discourse.

Are you writing fortune cookies, dillo? J/K!

Is all this passion driven by faith or fear?

I fear going to hell, but I have Faith that God's Word is true. I don't know that my Religion is the "right" Religion, I just have Faith that I'm doing right by God. That's the best I can do.

 

[Merlin1047]

I fear going to hell, but I have Faith that God's Word is true. I don't know that my Religion is the "right" Religion, I just have Faith that I'm doing right by God. That's the best I can do.

Rats! Had I simply said that, I could have saved myself sore fingers and a whole lot of keystrokes.

Nice point, Pride.

 

[dmp]

Somehow it appears that secularists and atheists are incapable of distinguishing the difference between disagreement and intolerance.

Simply because I am a Christian does not cause me to feel superior to an atheist, or a Bhuddist or a Hindu. Do I believe that my belief is the true and correct path? Yes. Do I believe that atheists, Bhuddists and Hindus will rot in hell? I believe that decision will be made by the Almighty when the time comes and I have no way of knowing to any reasonable degree of certainty what that decision will be.

Very correct - People afraid of God often use 'shock' terms like 'right-winger' or 'zealot' or 'fanatic' when it comes to those of Christian faith. They create words, by adding 'phobic' to the end of whatever activity they enjoy, but which is morally wrong.

I'd go a step further however - Christ teaches that apart from Him, there is NO path to 'salvation'...thus, those who don't know Him - whether they profess to or not, shall rot in hell...if one does actually 'rot' there.

 

[dmp]

I don't know that my Religion is the "right" Religion, I just have Faith that I'm doing right by God. That's the best I can do.

This worries me a little bit. By Christ's very message, his followers HAVE To believe what he says. Christ was pretty clear about being 'the' way. To allow that there may be 'other' ways for people of this world to find God means Christ wasn't exactly accurate. That's scary stuff.

 

[UsaPride]

This worries me a little bit. By Christ's very message, his followers HAVE To believe what he says. Christ was pretty clear about being 'the' way. To allow that there may be 'other' ways for people of this world to find God means Christ wasn't exactly accurate. That's scary stuff.

Oh, well don't worry about me, sweets! I believe in Christ. I also know there's umpteen Religions that think they are the right way. Now, how do I know what the "right" Religion is? I don't. I have to Pray, I have to Read my Bible, I have to trust in my heart and trust in God to lead me to the right way. I am not so arrogant, as so many want to paint Christians, to believe that only I am going to Heaven, I have to just Pray and have Faith.
See, no need to worry about me, there's so many other people to worry about. People who don't have Faith in anything so they try to discourage others from their Faith so they'll be just as miserable. It's all good here!

Oh, and thanks, Merlin!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

So much for religious tolerance, eh bully?

Religions has many good point too, ya know. But I won't get into that here.

 

[Merlin1047]

So much for religious tolerance, eh bully?

Religions has many good point too, ya know. But I won't get into that here.

That was a totally disreputable remark. Show me so much as one single comment directed at Bully that was even disrespectful much less intolerant.

Why is it that you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with atheist views is intolerant? Can you perhaps adjust your thinking to accept the fact that we do tolerate atheist and secularist views, we simply disagree with them?

Or is disagreement not allowed? Are Christians simply to remain silent in the face of what you perceive to be the greater wisdom? You may construe my disagreement as intolerance if you choose. Not only are you completely mistaken, but you're not going to shut me up either. :