CDZ The Trade War is Helping American Workers, not Wall Street

[william the wie]

The real problem with China is that non-Chinese companies will relocate over the coming year if the trade war continues. Rising unemployment or even a strong likelihood of it is a threat to the regime. That will reduce earnings for Wall Street. US workers are the easiest workers to locate to and much safer for investors since Trump and the states cannot and will not impose tariffs on American workers. We already have a shortage of American workers and a policy of reciprocal tariffs is the president's goal so wages are headed up.

 

[task0778]

I don't think the trade war helps anybody, not Wall Street, not US consumers, and not American workers either. I forget what the ratio is, but for every steelworker that was helped by the steel tariff, another 10 were hurt by it. Which is because there are so many more workers that use that steel to produce something as opposed to steelworkers that make steel. Aluminum, same deal.

I know many if not most of our trade deals with other countries are somewhat stacked against us, or other countries subsidize their products to make them cheaper for us to buy than our own stuff. But when you think about it, those foreign subsidies are actually helping the American consumer buy more stuff, it's like here's an extra $10 that you can spend on other things if you buy our products. All our tariffs on their stuff coming in is doing is increasing the price to our consumers, thereby lowering our standard of living.

So, the question is, are there other ways besides tariffs to get foreign countries to stop putting higher tariffs on our stuff coming into their country? There's gotta be ways to influence those countries that are screwing us over to knock it off.

 

[william the wie]

Effectively all trade unions especially in right to work states like the tariffs

 

[task0778]

Effectively all trade unions especially in right to work states like the tariffs

I find that hard to believe. For the simple reason that higher costs of materials such as steel and aluminum means the cost and price of the products they make will rise and that means fewer sales and that means fewer jobs. Not to mention fewer bonuses and lower wages. There may be some cases where this does not hold true, but I think for the most part it does.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war


Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war

 

[McRocket]

Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war


Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war

LOL...Cramer? Few in the know take that guy seriously. He called for Bitcoin to possibly reach $1 million one day. Only idiots believed that...even back in 2017.
Cramer says it's possible bitcoin could reach $1 million one day

And I could go on and on.


I will take the U.S. Chamber of Commerce - which represents trillions of dollars of GDP - over hyperactive Jim Cramer.

Tariffs are the Wrong Approach | U.S. Chamber of Commerce

 

[McRocket]

The ONLY way this works out well for America is if China caves. And there is virtually NO WAY they will do that. They are a government run, communist economy. They can hold out virtually as long as they want to. They don't have to worry about elections or big companies getting pissed at them.

Trade wars make EVERYTHING that is directly or indirectly to do with the goods that are tariffed more expensive.

Plus, it makes the US made goods more expensive as well. How?

Say you have two widgets sold at Walmart. One is American made and sells for $12. The other is Chinese made (of generally similar quality) and costs $11.
Now the tariffs raise the price of the Chinese-made widget to $14. That means the American made widget has a big edge in price. DO you think they will still sell it for $12?
Are you crazy? Only an economic fool would.
They will raise the price to $12.75. Just enough so that they still have a big edge over their sole competitor. But large enough that they get a big jump in profits.
And that will happen virtually across the board.
The prices for many, MANY things will go up - whether they are made in America or not. And this will hurt middle class/lower class Americans the most...as they can least afford to have to spend more for the same goods.

'Oh...but more Americans will be hired'.

Sure...but there is a huge problem with that. There is NO WAY ANY company (no matter what it says in it's press releases to kiss Trump's butt) will invest huge amounts of money on new production facilities just because of tariffs.
Why?
Because only a macro moron would built a new, billion dollar factory to make more goods because of the tariffs when the tariffs could end any day.
They will add another shift or something like that.
Purely temporary.


Most of you Trumpbots seem to know next to nothing about macroeconomics. You blindly believe whatever your Messiah (Trump) tells you. You forget that men who are FAR wealthier then Trump is and FAR smarter and better educated then he is AND who did not have their various companies declare bankruptcy numerous times (like Trump did) KNOW FOR A FACT that a trade war is a terrible idea. People who know have known this for decades.
But you Trumpbots (and Obamabots did it before) blindly believe whatever your political messiah tells you. Like most Americans - few of you actually understand macroeconomics. You just read the headlines and that is about it.

I am an independent. That means I NEVER believe ANYTHING a politician says (no matter which party he belongs to) unless he/she factually proves it. And I rarely get my news from a MSM source. And I NEVER, EVER get it from television (which is now for dinosaurs).
Unlike Trumpbots (and before them - Obamabots), I think for myself. I don't let the politicians or the MSM tell me what to think.

And if you people thought for yourselves and did your own research about the economy....you would see what most people in the know see...that unless China (or Trump) caves. This trade war will end badly for most Americans.
Throughout history, they almost always have.

 

[william the wie]

Effectively all trade unions especially in right to work states like the tariffs

I find that hard to believe. For the simple reason that higher costs of materials such as steel and aluminum means the cost and price of the products they make will rise and that means fewer sales and that means fewer jobs. Not to mention fewer bonuses and lower wages. There may be some cases where this does not hold true, but I think for the most part it does.

You are applying untested and unverified macro-economic assumptions:

The Chinese trade war against the US began late in the 1980s. As late as 2000 it was a barely noticeable minor irritation. The metals and other dumping exports by China is still only 0.4% of the US economy but 4% of China's economy. The theft of IP over the last 40 years by China is the big problem at a cumulative 30% of US GDP and it is the major generator of Chinese GDP now. Stopping such wholesale theft must be priority one.

 

[william the wie]

Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war


Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war

You can hear the same thing across the political spectrum.

 

[task0778]

Effectively all trade unions especially in right to work states like the tariffs

I find that hard to believe. For the simple reason that higher costs of materials such as steel and aluminum means the cost and price of the products they make will rise and that means fewer sales and that means fewer jobs. Not to mention fewer bonuses and lower wages. There may be some cases where this does not hold true, but I think for the most part it does.

You are applying untested and unverified macro-economic assumptions:

The Chinese trade war against the US began late in the 1980s. As late as 2000 it was a barely noticeable minor irritation. The metals and other dumping exports by China is still only 0.4% of the US economy but 4% of China's economy. The theft of IP over the last 40 years by China is the big problem at a cumulative 30% of US GDP and it is the major generator of Chinese GDP now. Stopping such wholesale theft must be priority one.

What I am applying is good old-fashioned common sense. You want to tell the world that raising the cost of materials doesn't raise the price of the product? You want to tell the world the higher price of the product doesn't normally result in lower sales, which in turn normally results in fewer jobs?

What you posted is true enough, but has nothing to do with explaining how all trade unions especially those in RTW states like the tariffs.

Here's my question, and I'm just spitballing here cuz there's a lot I don't know about IP, but why don't we deny permission to companies that have valuable IP from going to China? Why do we allow this theft to occur? And are there not other mechanisms that could be used besides tariffs?

 

[Manonthestreet]

Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war


Cramer says Trump is not wrong on the China trade war

LOL...Cramer? Few in the know take that guy seriously. He called for Bitcoin to possibly reach $1 million one day. Only idiots believed that...even back in 2017.
Cramer says it's possible bitcoin could reach $1 million one day

And I could go on and on.


I will take the U.S. Chamber of Commerce - which represents trillions of dollars of GDP - over hyperactive Jim Cramer.

Tariffs are the Wrong Approach | U.S. Chamber of Commerce

COC represents the outsourcers......not the the workers.....What is so hard about admitting NAFTA was bad policy........along with the rest of so called free trade agreements.....

 

[william the wie]

Effectively all trade unions especially in right to work states like the tariffs

I find that hard to believe. For the simple reason that higher costs of materials such as steel and aluminum means the cost and price of the products they make will rise and that means fewer sales and that means fewer jobs. Not to mention fewer bonuses and lower wages. There may be some cases where this does not hold true, but I think for the most part it does.

You are applying untested and unverified macro-economic assumptions:

The Chinese trade war against the US began late in the 1980s. As late as 2000 it was a barely noticeable minor irritation. The metals and other dumping exports by China is still only 0.4% of the US economy but 4% of China's economy. The theft of IP over the last 40 years by China is the big problem at a cumulative 30% of US GDP and it is the major generator of Chinese GDP now. Stopping such wholesale theft must be priority one.

What I am applying is good old-fashioned common sense. You want to tell the world that raising the cost of materials doesn't raise the price of the product? You want to tell the world the higher price of the product doesn't normally result in lower sales, which in turn normally results in fewer jobs?

What you posted is true enough, but has nothing to do with explaining how all trade unions especially those in RTW states like the tariffs.

Here's my question, and I'm just spitballing here cuz there's a lot I don't know about IP, but why don't we deny permission to companies that have valuable IP from going to China? Why do we allow this theft to occur? And are there not other mechanisms that could be used besides tariffs?

A very good first question but China demands IP bribes to run factories there and tariffs are the easiest way to prevent such extortion as in Ford will pay huge tariffs here if they build in China for the US Market. That saves a lot of jobs. China is trying to do to us what we did to Britain in the 19th century that basically ruined the British Empire prior to WWI. Leon Juglar is cheap online and gives the best refutation of free trade that I have seen. Free trade is a great theory but it does no0t work in practice.

 

[candycorn]

Effectively all trade unions especially in right to work states like the tariffs

I find that hard to believe. For the simple reason that higher costs of materials such as steel and aluminum means the cost and price of the products they make will rise and that means fewer sales and that means fewer jobs. Not to mention fewer bonuses and lower wages. There may be some cases where this does not hold true, but I think for the most part it does.

The largest one (or one of the largest) NAM is against the trade war; check out their twitter feed.

 

[OldLady]

The ONLY way this works out well for America is if China caves. And there is virtually NO WAY they will do that. They are a government run, communist economy. They can hold out virtually as long as they want to. They don't have to worry about elections or big companies getting pissed at them.

Trade wars make EVERYTHING that is directly or indirectly to do with the goods that are tariffed more expensive.

Plus, it makes the US made goods more expensive as well. How?

Say you have two widgets sold at Walmart. One is American made and sells for $12. The other is Chinese made (of generally similar quality) and costs $11.
Now the tariffs raise the price of the Chinese-made widget to $14. That means the American made widget has a big edge in price. DO you think they will still sell it for $12?
Are you crazy? Only an economic fool would.
They will raise the price to $12.75. Just enough so that they still have a big edge over their sole competitor. But large enough that they get a big jump in profits.
And that will happen virtually across the board.
The prices for many, MANY things will go up - whether they are made in America or not. And this will hurt middle class/lower class Americans the most...as they can least afford to have to spend more for the same goods.

'Oh...but more Americans will be hired'.

Sure...but there is a huge problem with that. There is NO WAY ANY company (no matter what it says in it's press releases to kiss Trump's butt) will invest huge amounts of money on new production facilities just because of tariffs.
Why?
Because only a macro moron would built a new, billion dollar factory to make more goods because of the tariffs when the tariffs could end any day.
They will add another shift or something like that.
Purely temporary.


Most of you Trumpbots seem to know next to nothing about macroeconomics. You blindly believe whatever your Messiah (Trump) tells you. You forget that men who are FAR wealthier then Trump is and FAR smarter and better educated then he is AND who did not have their various companies declare bankruptcy numerous times (like Trump did) KNOW FOR A FACT that a trade war is a terrible idea. People who know have known this for decades.
But you Trumpbots (and Obamabots did it before) blindly believe whatever your political messiah tells you. Like most Americans - few of you actually understand macroeconomics. You just read the headlines and that is about it.

I am an independent. That means I NEVER believe ANYTHING a politician says (no matter which party he belongs to) unless he/she factually proves it. And I rarely get my news from a MSM source. And I NEVER, EVER get it from television (which is now for dinosaurs).
Unlike Trumpbots (and before them - Obamabots), I think for myself. I don't let the politicians or the MSM tell me what to think.

And if you people thought for yourselves and did your own research about the economy....you would see what most people in the know see...that unless China (or Trump) caves. This trade war will end badly for most Americans.
Throughout history, they almost always have.

Interestingly, it is having some "macro" effects that most Americans would not find particularly positive either. The soybean tariff, for instance. China has cancelled its orders for US soybeans and has ordered 3x as many from Russia. Russia will be celebrating all those rubles. So much for "punishing" Russia's pocketbook, huh?

 

[jwoodie]

The only Trade War is the one that has been going on against the U.S. by our so-called trading "partners." Trump is simply calling them out on it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jobs are being lost and or not created in this climate, and when jobs really start falling somebody is going to have trumpsplaining to do.

 

[jwoodie]

Jobs are being lost and or not created in this climate, and when jobs really start falling somebody is going to have trumpsplaining to do.

Always good for a laugh, Jake.

 

[jwoodie]

Interestingly, it is having some "macro" effects that most Americans would not find particularly positive either. The soybean tariff, for instance. China has cancelled its orders for US soybeans and has ordered 3x as many from Russia. Russia will be celebrating all those rubles. So much for "punishing" Russia's pocketbook, huh?

The only "interesting" thing is that, if Obama had been doing the same thing, you would have been in ecstasy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jobs are being lost and or not created in this climate, and when jobs really start falling somebody is going to have trumpsplaining to do.

Always good for a laugh, Jake.

Yup, an alt right like you would laugh at the working man losing jobs.

 

[Toronado3800]

The real problem with China is that non-Chinese companies will relocate over the coming year if the trade war continues. Rising unemployment or even a strong likelihood of it is a threat to the regime. That will reduce earnings for Wall Street. US workers are the easiest workers to locate to and much safer for investors since Trump and the states cannot and will not impose tariffs on American workers. We already have a shortage of American workers and a policy of reciprocal tariffs is the president's goal so wages are headed up.

I generally support tariffs if there is ANY reason to have one. A tariff against a GM vehicle made in Canada which has a similar set of regulations and costs and one made in America doesn't necessarily accomplish alot.

A tariff against a Chinese product taking advantage of cheap labor and no environmental regulations, sure.

Things have exceptions though. The Marshall Plan can teach us a bit about when and where to give away American money so we don't need to give away lives so I'm not totally against redistributing our $'s to some country on the brink of a communist revolution via unbalanced trade.

That said, I spent the better part of a decade getting lectured by republicans about how bad tariffs were so I'm enjoying this a bit.