The things I don't get about this conflict

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by Munin, Jan 7, 2010.

  1. Munin
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    Munin VIP Member

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    The Arabs ruled the Isreali land from 636 to 1099 (463 years), Egyptians ruled it during 1260 - 1517 (257 years) and the Ottomans ruled it during 1517 - 1917 (400 years). So in total that is about 1120 years that the neighbouring regions ruled over the country now known as Israel, does that give them the right to claim this land now? And if so, which country gets to claim it? I think it is obvious that the answer here is no, they were clearly not the "indigenous" people of the land. They occupied the land much in the same way that the roman empire occupied it before.


    Jewish people as far as the history books go back in time seem to have always lived in the land, so it is reasonable for the jews to claim this as their homeland.


    The establishment of the nation of Israel is clearly a heritage of WWI and WWII, because of the defeat of the Ottoman empire in WWI the Ottomans gave much of their land to the french and british allied forces who now legally owned the land and could do whatever they want with it. The british started to arm both arabs as wel as the jews living their in an effort to establish a security force for the newly gained land. After WWII the british decided to give the land to the jews living there because of the devastation the war did to the Jewish people.

    The problem here was that in 1922 the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews, 71,500 Christians and 7,600 others. Clearly a majority of muslims, but as at this time the land is not a democracy (just as all neighbouring muslim countries now it was a dictatorship ruled by the brittish). As a result of the war in europe many more Jews immigrated to the land and this didn't go well with the arabs that felt threatened by this (for good reasons), the nationalistic zionist movement that was growing stronger feuled the opposition even more. Both sides have their good reasons for supporting their own faction: because the arabs have also migrated in large numbers to palestine, shouldn't the jews have the right to do the same? And the nationalist movement being a result of the massacres in europe that ve led to a real need for a home country. And the arabs have good reason to be rebellious against a possibly future nationalistic government that would increasingly begin to exclude them.

    The decision of the british to give Palestine to the jews was only an accident waiting to happen, but a legitimite gesture because the british legitimate ownership of the land. Looking at it with todays ideology of democracy and human rights it becomes clear how hypocritic the decision really would be if it happened today (but it didn't).

    Then an "War of Independence" of the arab "Catastrophe" happened where a majority of 7 nations fought against one, where the newly born Israel became a creation of its aggressors. Like in many wars one nation conquered land from (an)other nation(s), being now "legally" owned by the Israel (that is if the war is over).

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/1948_arab_israeli_war_-_Oct.jpg

    So what is all this shit about unjust occupation? Polland now occupies land of germany, Russia occupies land of finland, Italy occupies land of Austria, the US occupies land of Japan, Belgium occupies land of germany, ... This is all a result of war, how come the inhabitants of all these other occupied lands seem to be doing fine?


    Is it because they re being treated better?
    Is it because they re not religious nutcases?
    Is it because they don't attack their fellow citizens?
    Is it because they re stupid/weak enough to live in a country that isn't their own?
    Is it because they have the same religion as the inhabitants of the country that occupies them?
    Is it because the countries who fought the war with Israel couldn't recognize defeat if it would slap them in the face?
    Is it because Israelis were stupid not to expell all arabs?
    Is it ...

    I ll gave a big number of questions because the answer isn't really clear to me (don't confuse these questions with being answers of my own, that s why I ve put a "?")
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  2. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore Platinum Member

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    In the early 20th century about 8% of Palestinians were Jews. They could trace their ancestry back to biblical times. They were still living in their homeland. But, they were only one of many who had any rule in Palestine over the centuries and that rule was for a brief period of time. They never ruled the entire country.

    About 20% of Palestinians were Christians and the remainder were virtually all Muslims. Most of these could trace their ancestry back hundreds even thousands of years. Over time some immigrated to Palestine to be a part of that society. All historic accounts state that there was an amicable relationship among the indigenous Muslims, Christians, and Jews. One Jew said: "Our grandmothers used to babysit each others children."

    Then the Zionists came along to claim the country to be exclusively for the Jews. They proceeded to drive the indigenous Muslims and Christians out of their homes and off their land.
     
  3. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore Platinum Member

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    One of the biggest fallacies of this conflict is that the UN partitioned Palestine creating the State of Israel. That never happened. Palestine was not partitioned.

    Many downplay the fact that Israel has no borders. Palestine has defined borders that have not changed since before 1947. Israel has none. You cannot point to anyplace on the map and say this is inside Israel's borders.

    This is important. When it is reported that rockets have been fired into Israel on Sderot, for example, Sderot is not within an Israeli border. It is, however inside Palestine's defined borders. The Palestinians claim that Sderot is an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land. There is nothing to say they are incorrect.
     
  4. TheSuaveOne
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    TheSuaveOne Man without a party

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    I guess I would support the plight of the paistinians more if I saw them pushing against Jordan as much as they do against Isreal. Can't tell you the last time I heard the media or UN members complain that Jordan stole their land...just those evil Jews.

    -TSO
     
  5. P F Tinmore
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    I think the major difference is that Jordan merely raised a new flag over city hall where Israel expelled most of the population. If Israel allowed all those expelled to return home the conflict would eventually fade away.
     
  6. TheSuaveOne
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    TheSuaveOne Man without a party

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    Unfortunately, I don't see any resolution that doesn't force segregation of the Israelis and the Palestinians with clear defined and agreeable borders.

    -TSO
     
  7. P F Tinmore
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    The partition, or two state solution as it is called now, has been attempted since 1937. We are farther away from that solution now than we were over 70 years ago.
     
  8. al Haq
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    There is so much in the OP to respond to, I scarcely know where to begin. So I guess I might as well start at the beginning.

    This line of reasoning gets repeated a lot by seemingly reputable "experts," so I am not blaming you for reciting it. However, this timeline is missing quite a bit.

    Anyways, no, the Jewish people were certainly not the original inhabitants of the land according to the history books (not even by Biblical accounts.)

    The earliest inhabitants of Palestine were Canaanites, and the region was known as the Land of Canaan. Archeaological evidence of the Canaanite city-states has been excavated in Jerusalem, Gaza, Jericho and other sites, and dates back to about 3000 BC.

    The region was already under Egyptian rule by the time the Hebrews arrived in about 1250 BC.

    I can't post URLs yet, but there is a very nice animated map at w w w dot Maps of War dot com that shows the parade of conquering empires that came and went over 40 centuries - go to the main page and click "Imperial History of the Middle East."
     
  9. al Haq
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    This is true. Also, Jordan formally ceded its claims to the West Bank to the Palestinians more than 20 years ago.
     
  10. P F Tinmore
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    Here are a few.

    The Canaanites (c. 2000 BC- 1468 BC)

    THE EGYPTIANS(C. 1468- 1200 BC)

    THE PHILISTINES* (c. 1200-975 BC)

    The Israelites The Kingdom of David(c.975- 925 BC)

    THE CANAANITE PHOENICIANS* (C.925-700 BC)

    http://www.jerusalemites.org/history_of_palestine/12.htm
     

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