The term "liberty" is NOT undefinable and vague.

[Liberty]

A recent idiot liberal acquaintance of mine has told me that the word "liberty" (which is my favorite word ever, incase you haven't noticed) is based on perception of someone's circumstance and can be defined multiple ways. No it can't. Liberty can be defined and I am going to make it really easy for you people to understand what liberty MEANS!

Liberty is based on the principle of Self-Ownership.
You own your life. To deny this is to imply that another person has a higher claim on your life than you do. No other person, or group of persons, owns your life.
You exist in time: Past, present, and future. To lose your life, is to lose your future. To lose your liberty is to lose your present. and to lose the product of your life and liberty is to lose that portion of you past that produced it.

A product of your life and your liberty IS YOUR PROPERTY.
Property is the fruit of your labor and the product of your time, energy, and talents.
This property can then be used for bartering, etc with other people if both parties CONSENT.

That what it means to be free and liberated. So don't be one of those douchebags that says "liberty can't be defined!!" because we wouldn't want you looking like an ignoramus would we?

 

[Tank]

 

[Hister]

Sorry Lib, but there's no liberty in a merikka. You have the biggest army, the most prisoners, the IRS, ... and you're only 1 party better than china. In other words, no liberty of vote, you have only choice A and choice A1 (both the same choice).
So the word "liberty" in the US is meaningless, no one is free, and nothing is free either.

 

[Liberty]

Sorry Lib, but there's no liberty in a merikka. You have the biggest army, the most prisoners, the IRS, ... and you're only 1 party better than china. In other words, no liberty of vote, you have only choice A and choice A1 (both the same choice).
So the word "liberty" in the US is meaningless, no one is free, and nothing is free either.

way to miss the point entirely. the point is liberty is what everyone should be striving for. not a socialist utopia where everyone is the same and no one is free to bloom their own talents.

 

[uscitizen]

Liberty is a concept that is unworkable in our current societies of the world.

 

[Greenbeard]

Liberty is based on the principle of Self-Ownership.
You own your life. To deny this is to imply that another person has a higher claim on your life than you do. No other person, or group of persons, owns your life.

Short of literal slavery, what would constitute an infringement upon liberty as defined here?

 

[Hister]

Sorry Lib, but there's no liberty in a merikka. You have the biggest army, the most prisoners, the IRS, ... and you're only 1 party better than china. In other words, no liberty of vote, you have only choice A and choice A1 (both the same choice).
So the word "liberty" in the US is meaningless, no one is free, and nothing is free either.

way to miss the point entirely. the point is liberty is what everyone should be striving for. not a socialist utopia where everyone is the same and no one is free to bloom their own talents.

That's good, because you missed my point as well. You think you're striving for liberty, when all you're striving for is what the man wants to give you.
Just ask yourself: are you free to live in a country that does attack the rest of the world constantly? Are you free to vote for a party that will pull all its troops out of every corner of the world and let those people live in peace? ...

 

[Liberty]

Liberty is based on the principle of Self-Ownership.
You own your life. To deny this is to imply that another person has a higher claim on your life than you do. No other person, or group of persons, owns your life.

Short of literal slavery, what would constitute an infringement upon liberty as defined here?

i had to define the word "life" to lead into my point on past, present, and future.

 

[Liberty]

Sorry Lib, but there's no liberty in a merikka. You have the biggest army, the most prisoners, the IRS, ... and you're only 1 party better than china. In other words, no liberty of vote, you have only choice A and choice A1 (both the same choice).
So the word "liberty" in the US is meaningless, no one is free, and nothing is free either.

way to miss the point entirely. the point is liberty is what everyone should be striving for. not a socialist utopia where everyone is the same and no one is free to bloom their own talents.

That's good, because you missed my point as well. You think you're striving for liberty, when all you're striving for is what the man wants to give you.
Just ask yourself: are you free to live in a country that does attack the rest of the world constantly? Are you free to vote for a party that will pull all its troops out of every corner of the world and let those people live in peace? ...

what the fuck? I am talking about liberty as in john locke's philosophy. I am not trying to make this about modern americans or american issues. This is a philosophical board so im talking philosophy. liberty as defined is not practiced in the united states,mostly due to a rogue government and lack of quality and accurate historical education of our kids.

I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature. It doesn't matter what country you are in or what actions your government take, you as an individual do have natural rights, and those rights are what government digs its fingers into and then punishes those who exercise said rights, such as keeping the fruits of one's labor. This is of course, more severe in some countries than others, but philosophically every human being has this right. The urge to control the liberty of others is seen by dictators and tyrants all through history, and that is why liberty has to be fought for, if desired.

A government of a society does have a role to play, and that role boils down to a system of security, justice and a rule of law for any citizen that violates the liberty of another citizen. Such as theft or murder. Theft takes away property, and murder takes away life, thus those two should be punishable offenses because they damage the liberty of another. The method of punishment is of course, up to the people, however the government is put in place BY people to protect the liberty of people. A concept that is lost in both America and every other society today. John Locke was a brilliant man.

 

[Hister]

way to miss the point entirely. the point is liberty is what everyone should be striving for. not a socialist utopia where everyone is the same and no one is free to bloom their own talents.

That's good, because you missed my point as well. You think you're striving for liberty, when all you're striving for is what the man wants to give you.
Just ask yourself: are you free to live in a country that does attack the rest of the world constantly? Are you free to vote for a party that will pull all its troops out of every corner of the world and let those people live in peace? ...

what the fuck? I am talking about liberty as in john locke's philosophy. I am not trying to make this about modern americans or american issues. This is a philosophical board so im talking philosophy. liberty as defined is not practiced in the united states,mostly due to a rogue government and lack of quality and accurate historical education of our kids.

And on a side note, I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature. It doesn't matter what country you are in or what actions your government take, you as an individual do have natural rights, and those rights are what government digs its fingers into and then punishes those who exercise said rights, such as keeping the fruits of one's labor. This is of course, more severe in some countries than others, but philosophically every human being has this right. The urge to control the liberty of others is seen by dictators and tyrants all through history, and that is why liberty has to be fought for, if desired.

Your liberty is being controlled by the man, and by your need to buy things. If you really want to be free, go live off the land somewhere, no job, no money...
You just don't want to pay taxes, that's your liberty

 

[uscitizen]

That's good, because you missed my point as well. You think you're striving for liberty, when all you're striving for is what the man wants to give you.
Just ask yourself: are you free to live in a country that does attack the rest of the world constantly? Are you free to vote for a party that will pull all its troops out of every corner of the world and let those people live in peace? ...

what the fuck? I am talking about liberty as in john locke's philosophy. I am not trying to make this about modern americans or american issues. This is a philosophical board so im talking philosophy. liberty as defined is not practiced in the united states,mostly due to a rogue government and lack of quality and accurate historical education of our kids.

And on a side note, I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature. It doesn't matter what country you are in or what actions your government take, you as an individual do have natural rights, and those rights are what government digs its fingers into and then punishes those who exercise said rights, such as keeping the fruits of one's labor. This is of course, more severe in some countries than others, but philosophically every human being has this right. The urge to control the liberty of others is seen by dictators and tyrants all through history, and that is why liberty has to be fought for, if desired.

Your liberty is being controlled by the man, and by your need to buy things. If you really want to be free, go live off the land somewhere, no job, no money...
You just don't want to pay taxes, that's your liberty

Very true, one cannot have true liberty while living in current US soiciety.

 

[Liberty]

That's good, because you missed my point as well. You think you're striving for liberty, when all you're striving for is what the man wants to give you.
Just ask yourself: are you free to live in a country that does attack the rest of the world constantly? Are you free to vote for a party that will pull all its troops out of every corner of the world and let those people live in peace? ...

what the fuck? I am talking about liberty as in john locke's philosophy. I am not trying to make this about modern americans or american issues. This is a philosophical board so im talking philosophy. liberty as defined is not practiced in the united states,mostly due to a rogue government and lack of quality and accurate historical education of our kids.

And on a side note, I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature. It doesn't matter what country you are in or what actions your government take, you as an individual do have natural rights, and those rights are what government digs its fingers into and then punishes those who exercise said rights, such as keeping the fruits of one's labor. This is of course, more severe in some countries than others, but philosophically every human being has this right. The urge to control the liberty of others is seen by dictators and tyrants all through history, and that is why liberty has to be fought for, if desired.

Your liberty is being controlled by the man, and by your need to buy things. If you really want to be free, go live off the land somewhere, no job, no money...
You just don't want to pay taxes, that's your liberty

Man you are a dumb as a rock. I am talking PHILOSOPHY. jesus, if i open a thread on what was the point of plato's cave allegory, youd say something like "yes but you are in the cave because america sucks!" grow up or get the fuck out, please.

this thread is supposed to be about the concept of liberty as a whole, NOT how it applies today.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Back in my old Navy days, "Liberty" was what we called it when we got to leave the ship and go ashore to drink beer and play with the winches...

 

[Liberty]

Back in my old Navy days, "Liberty" was what we called it when we got to leave the ship and go ashore to drink beer and play with the winches...

i'd toast to that.

 

[Hister]

what the fuck? I am talking about liberty as in john locke's philosophy. I am not trying to make this about modern americans or american issues. This is a philosophical board so im talking philosophy. liberty as defined is not practiced in the united states,mostly due to a rogue government and lack of quality and accurate historical education of our kids.

And on a side note, I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature. It doesn't matter what country you are in or what actions your government take, you as an individual do have natural rights, and those rights are what government digs its fingers into and then punishes those who exercise said rights, such as keeping the fruits of one's labor. This is of course, more severe in some countries than others, but philosophically every human being has this right. The urge to control the liberty of others is seen by dictators and tyrants all through history, and that is why liberty has to be fought for, if desired.

Your liberty is being controlled by the man, and by your need to buy things. If you really want to be free, go live off the land somewhere, no job, no money...
You just don't want to pay taxes, that's your liberty

Man you are a dumb as a rock. I am talking PHILOSOPHY. jesus, if i open a thread on what was the point of plato's cave allegory, youd say something like "yes but you are in the cave because america sucks!" grow up or get the fuck out, please.

this thread is supposed to be about the concept of liberty as a whole, NOT how it applies today.

So am I. Can you really have liberty in the man's jail? I think not. So you're looking for HOW MUCH liberty the man will let you take, not absolute liberty, which is unattainable in a society that sucks as much as a merruka.

 

[Liberty]

Your liberty is being controlled by the man, and by your need to buy things. If you really want to be free, go live off the land somewhere, no job, no money...
You just don't want to pay taxes, that's your liberty

Man you are a dumb as a rock. I am talking PHILOSOPHY. jesus, if i open a thread on what was the point of plato's cave allegory, youd say something like "yes but you are in the cave because america sucks!" grow up or get the fuck out, please.

this thread is supposed to be about the concept of liberty as a whole, NOT how it applies today.

So am I. Can you really have liberty in the man's jail? I think not. So you're looking for HOW MUCH liberty the man will let you take, not absolute liberty, which is unattainable in a society that sucks as much as a merruka.

I AM NOT ARGUING WHETHER IT IS ATTAINABLE OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh my fucking god youre so fucking stupid.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Your liberty is being controlled by the man, and by your need to buy things. If you really want to be free, go live off the land somewhere, no job, no money...
You just don't want to pay taxes, that's your liberty

Man you are a dumb as a rock. I am talking PHILOSOPHY. jesus, if i open a thread on what was the point of plato's cave allegory, youd say something like "yes but you are in the cave because america sucks!" grow up or get the fuck out, please.

this thread is supposed to be about the concept of liberty as a whole, NOT how it applies today.

So am I. Can you really have liberty in the man's jail? I think not. So you're looking for HOW MUCH liberty the man will let you take, not absolute liberty, which is unattainable in a society that sucks as much as a merruka.

If America sucks so much why are you posting on US Message Boards?

Go start your own board about wherever the fuck you're from.

Liberty used to be revered here but lately those of us who argue for it are demonized as anti government anarchists.

And you yourself in another thread were all for the government taxing people who didn't have kids at a higher rate than those who do. Seems to me that your position on liberty is that no one should have it or that some should have it at the expense of others.

 

[Hister]

Man you are a dumb as a rock. I am talking PHILOSOPHY. jesus, if i open a thread on what was the point of plato's cave allegory, youd say something like "yes but you are in the cave because america sucks!" grow up or get the fuck out, please.

this thread is supposed to be about the concept of liberty as a whole, NOT how it applies today.

So am I. Can you really have liberty in the man's jail? I think not. So you're looking for HOW MUCH liberty the man will let you take, not absolute liberty, which is unattainable in a society that sucks as much as a merruka.

I AM NOT ARGUING WHETHER IT IS ATTAINABLE OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh my fucking god youre so fucking stupid.

So make a valid argument then.

 

[Greenbeard]

I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature.

I'm not sure how true that is, since individual liberty (as generally understood in these discussions) is virtually always reliant on social institutions. That is to say, those things your recognize as essential individual liberties--"natural rights"--are meaningless without social recognition. So in that sense, "liberty" exists at the societal, not the individual level: dismantle society and its institutions and enter some sort of Hobbesian state of nature in which the individual truly is supreme and you won't have anything resembling your conception of liberty.

So it sounds more like "liberty" here refers to carving out and retaining a certain role for the individual within society. Obviously defining that role is a never-ending process and one of the primary sources of political/social tension in our society. In that sense, your "idiot liberal acquaintance" was correct that the exact meaning or interpretation of "liberty"--the role societies preserve for the individual--is malleable. The definition you provided in the OP is very open-ended, in that one can imagine a broad range of possible societies satisfying it, all while disagreeing with each other about the exact relationship of the individual to the society.

 

[Liberty]

I am striving for liberty because liberty is individualistic in nature.

I'm not sure how true that is, since individual liberty (as generally understood in these discussions) is virtually always reliant on social institutions. That is to say, those things your recognize as essential individual liberties--"natural rights"--are meaningless without social recognition. So in that sense, "liberty" exists at the societal, not the individual level: dismantle society and its institutions and enter some sort of Hobbesian state of nature in which the individual truly is supreme and you won't have anything resembling your conception of liberty.

So it sounds more like "liberty" here refers to carving out and retaining a certain role for the individual within society. Obviously defining that role is a never-ending process and one of the primary sources of political/social tension in our society. In that sense, your "idiot liberal acquaintance" was correct that the exact meaning or interpretation of "liberty"--the role societies preserve for the individual--is malleable. The definition you provided in the OP is very open-ended, in that one can imagine a broad range of possible societies satisfying it, all while disagreeing with each other about the exact relationship of the individual to the society.

well, shit. well said, although I disagree as i believe the society as it is today is overvalued and placed in a "national" view, where my definition of liberty would flourish in small communities rather than gigantic nations. Locke took a lot from Hobbes and shook it up a bit for his definition of liberty.