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Christian doctrine renders the parables of Jesus impossible to understand. They are obvious in significance to any mystic, though -- or most of them are, anyway.
Here are three clues to understanding them.
1) They are NEVER about personal morality in the ordinary world.
2) They are NEVER about life after death.
3) They are ALWAYS about the transformation of the self, and what in other religious contexts is sometimes called enlightenment.
Here is an example, from Luke 17:20-36.
20 Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the kingdom of God come?"
Jesus answered, "God's kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you will be able to see with your eyes. 21 People will not say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' because God's kingdom is within you."
22 Then Jesus said to his followers, "The time will come when you will want very much to see one of the days of the Son of Man. But you will not see it. 23 People will say to you, 'Look, there he is!' or, 'Look, here he is!' Stay where you are; don't go away and search.
24 "When the Son of Man comes again, he will shine like lightning, which flashes across the sky and lights it up from one side to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by the people of this time.26 When the Son of Man comes again, it will be as it was when Noah lived.27 People were eating, drinking, marrying, and giving their children to be married until the day Noah entered the boat. Then the flood came and killed them all.28 It will be the same as during the time of Lot. People were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, and building.29 But the day Lot left Sodom,[c] fire and sulfur rained down from the sky and killed them all. 30 This is how it will be when the Son of Man comes again.
31 "On that day, a person who is on the roof and whose belongings are in the house should not go inside to get them. A person who is in the field should not go back home. 32 Remember Lot's wife.[d] 33 Those who try to keep their lives will lose them. But those who give up their lives will save them.34 I tell you, on that night two people will be sleeping in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken, and the other will be left. [ 36 Two people will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left.]"
The first part of this is very straightforward and means just what it says: the Kingdom of God is within you -- a transformation of your own spirit. Don't look for it in any place you can see; look for it on the inside. The rest is more cryptic.
The coming of the Son of Man transforms everything. It burns down the old and makes the world entirely new. But this is a transformation of experience and perspective, not of the material reality of the world itself; it is not an event contained in time, like a revolution, but rather something that happens within each person who undergoes it.
The bit about the Son of Man first having to suffer is usually interpreted by Christians to refer to Jesus' own coming torture and crucifixion, and it is conceivable that is what he meant, in an unpleasant bit of time-free awareness. But it can also refer to the suffering and painful transformation that each person undergoes in awakening, and given the context this seems the more likely interpretation. (Or of course he could have meant both.)
Those who try to keep their lives will lose them, those who give them up will save them. Holding onto one's normal mind-set and normal consciousness binds a person into mortality. Giving these up, allowing the awareness of the real Self to flow through, one becomes aware of the unity between God and oneself, and that as such one is immortal, but not in one's limited personality.
Two people in one bed; two women grinding grain -- these are both two people in one body. The real self, the real consciousness, the true identity, arises and the old self is left behind.
In the light of spiritual experience, the cryptic sayings of Jesus become comprehensible and his parables make sense. Without that perspective, they are opaque. Properly understood, they fly in the face of a lot of Christian doctrine. In fact, I become increasingly convinced that the whole point of Christian doctrine is to obscure the teachings of Jesus, like a protective coating applied to a dangerous and corrosive substance.
Whoever has an ear, let him hear.
May I please ask you, if you don't mind.....
Do you believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?
May I please ask you, if you don't mind.....
Do you believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?
If you mean, do I think he was a human being, yes. I know that we have no proof positive that he ever really existed, but I consider his real existence to be the most economical explanation for the existence of Christianity and so on the whole I believe he did exist.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?
I believe that everyone and everything is God. Moreover, so did he. That of course includes him.
I think that probably clarifies what you are looking for. I do not see Jesus the way he is seen in Christian doctrine. As I said earlier in this thread, I believe that Christian doctrine exists for the purpose of obscuring the teachings of Jesus, with which they are incompatible.
Revelation 19:13 - And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
Yet you quote scripture and "teach" on it even though you do not believe HE alone is God, and King of kings, and Lord of lords? I don't understand, feel free to explain further.
Yet you quote scripture and "teach" on it even though you do not believe HE alone is God, and King of kings, and Lord of lords? I don't understand, feel free to explain further.
With regard to the Bible, I do not accept an "all or nothing" argument, or the idea that I must either accept the (frankly absurd) traditional Christian ideas about it or else reject it altogether. The idea that the Bible is completely false is no more logical nor likely to be true, than the idea that it is completely true or the "word of God" as Christians think of it.
With respect to Jesus, as I said above I accept that he was a real person. I accept that there was an oral tradition about his teachings among those who claimed to be his followers, and that the Gospels are more-or-less accurate recordings of that oral tradition. I think it likely that most of what the Gospels depict Jesus as having taught, he really did teach. I think that's especially likely because so much of it has a mystical meaning that I seriously doubt the authors of the Gospels understood well. And I quote scripture in discussing the teachings of Jesus because the Bible is the only source we have for those teachings. If I had another source I would quote that as well.
Cammpbell: None of what you posted relates in any way to the thread topic. Please set aside any and all claims to Biblical infallibility, which do not belong on this thread -- do not discuss them, do not refute them, do not argue with them, or if you must, do it elsewhere.
A completely human and fallible Bible nevertheless records certain teachings by a Roman-era Jewish mystic who was executed for treason centuries ago. It is those reported teachings that are under discussion here. If you have something to say about them, by all means participate, but contradictions found among the Gospels and other books of the New Testament are completely off-topic.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Do you believe we as people should listen to you teach on the Word of God and how it should be interpreted, instead of reading it ourselves and asking God Himself to help us understand?
Teachings Incomprehensible and I post contradictions You must be shitting me
Teachings Incomprehensible and I post contradictions You must be shitting me
No, I'm not shitting you. The teachings of Jesus are not incomprehensible; it's just that Christian doctrine contains ideas that conflict with them and RENDER them incomprehensible. Also, to understand them requires a certain amount of mystical insight.
Contradictions in the Bible are of value ONLY in refuting the claim of Biblical infallibility. As that claim is not part of the current discussion, pointing them out is of no value here. Contradictions in the Bible do not render it worthless as a source of ideas. They only render it fallible -- which is not in dispute, at least not by me, and I don't want to make this thread about that.
Teachings Incomprehensible and I post contradictions You must be shitting me
No, I'm not shitting you. The teachings of Jesus are not incomprehensible; it's just that Christian doctrine contains ideas that conflict with them and RENDER them incomprehensible. Also, to understand them requires a certain amount of mystical insight.
Contradictions in the Bible are of value ONLY in refuting the claim of Biblical infallibility. As that claim is not part of the current discussion, pointing them out is of no value here. Contradictions in the Bible do not render it worthless as a source of ideas. They only render it fallible -- which is not in dispute, at least not by me, and I don't want to make this thread about that.
Teachings Incomprehensible and I post contradictions You must be shitting me
No, I'm not shitting you. The teachings of Jesus are not incomprehensible; it's just that Christian doctrine contains ideas that conflict with them and RENDER them incomprehensible. Also, to understand them requires a certain amount of mystical insight.
Contradictions in the Bible are of value ONLY in refuting the claim of Biblical infallibility. As that claim is not part of the current discussion, pointing them out is of no value here. Contradictions in the Bible do not render it worthless as a source of ideas. They only render it fallible -- which is not in dispute, at least not by me, and I don't want to make this thread about that.
you don't need "mystical insight" to understand what jesus was saying. you actually need some proficiency in judaism, since most of his teachings were based on judaism. it also wouldn't hurt you to know what an essene is, since yeshua was most likely an essene if the dead sea scrolls offer any insight.
you also need to separate what jesus said from what his disciples said *about* him... and then have to parse through the mess constantine made at the council of nicea... which may not have much relation at all to the actual teachings of jesus.
what we DO know is he believed that what we did for each other was done for G-d.. and what we refuse to do for each other is refused to G-d.
you don't need "mystical insight" to understand what jesus was saying. you actually need some proficiency in judaism, since most of his teachings were based on judaism. it also wouldn't hurt you to know what an essene is, since yeshua was most likely an essene if the dead sea scrolls offer any insight.
you also need to separate what jesus said from what his disciples said *about* him... and then have to parse through the mess constantine made at the council of nicea... which may not have much relation at all to the actual teachings of jesus.
what we DO know is he believed that what we did for each other was done for G-d.. and what we refuse to do for each other is refused to G-d.
If they had told the truth...which is impossible when one is trying to deal with virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, divinity, raising from the dead, healing leprosy by touching, feeding thousands with two fish and five loaves, resurrection etc. they wouldn't have had so much trouble keeping their stories straight. The whole thing is a mess of myths, legends and old wives tales.
Those who do not understand the Bible are lost. Satan clouds the minds of unbelievers. Just because you do not believe the Bible doesn't mean squat.If they had told the truth...which is impossible when one is trying to deal with virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, divinity, raising from the dead, healing leprosy by touching, feeding thousands with two fish and five loaves, resurrection etc. they wouldn't have had so much trouble keeping their stories straight. The whole thing is a mess of myths, legends and old wives tales.
No, it is a collection of very wise, enlightened, and powerful insights EMBEDDED in a mess of old wives' tales and fables.
There are two ways to miss the point by focusing on virgin birth, walking on water, etc. One can insist that these things are true, or one can insist that they are false. Either way, one is putting one's attention where it does not belong, and ignoring what's important.
Those who do not understand the Bible are lost.
Those who do not understand the Bible are lost. Satan clouds the minds of unbelievers. Just because you do not believe the Bible doesn't mean squat.If they had told the truth...which is impossible when one is trying to deal with virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, divinity, raising from the dead, healing leprosy by touching, feeding thousands with two fish and five loaves, resurrection etc. they wouldn't have had so much trouble keeping their stories straight. The whole thing is a mess of myths, legends and old wives tales.
No, it is a collection of very wise, enlightened, and powerful insights EMBEDDED in a mess of old wives' tales and fables.
There are two ways to miss the point by focusing on virgin birth, walking on water, etc. One can insist that these things are true, or one can insist that they are false. Either way, one is putting one's attention where it does not belong, and ignoring what's important.
Jesus was basically a communist.
One of the reasons I am an athetist.
Jesus was basically a communist.
One of the reasons I am an athetist.
Those who do not understand the Bible are lost. Satan clouds the minds of unbelievers. Just because you do not believe the Bible doesn't mean squat.If they had told the truth...which is impossible when one is trying to deal with virgin birth, walking on water, water into wine, divinity, raising from the dead, healing leprosy by touching, feeding thousands with two fish and five loaves, resurrection etc. they wouldn't have had so much trouble keeping their stories straight. The whole thing is a mess of myths, legends and old wives tales.
No, it is a collection of very wise, enlightened, and powerful insights EMBEDDED in a mess of old wives' tales and fables.
There are two ways to miss the point by focusing on virgin birth, walking on water, etc. One can insist that these things are true, or one can insist that they are false. Either way, one is putting one's attention where it does not belong, and ignoring what's important.
