The Swiss have had Obama care for 20 years

[Chris]

The centerpiece of the case against Obamacare is the requirement that everyone buy some kind of health insurance or face stiff penalties--the so-called individual mandate. It is a way of moving toward universal coverage without a government-run or single-payer system. It might surprise Americans to learn that another advanced industrial country, one with a totally private health care system, made precisely the same choice nearly 20 years ago: Switzerland. The lessons from Switzerland and other countries can't resolve the constitutional issues, but they suggest the inevitability of some version of Obamacare.

Switzerland is not your typical European welfare-state society. It is extremely business-friendly and has always gone its own way, shunning the euro and charting its own course on health care. The country ranks higher than the U.S. on the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom.

Twenty years ago, Switzerland had a system very similar to America's--private insurers, private providers--with very similar problems. People didn't buy insurance but ended up in emergency rooms, insurers screened out people with pre-existing conditions, and costs were rising fast. The country came to the conclusion that to make health care work, everyone had to buy insurance. So the Swiss passed an individual mandate and reformed their system along lines very similar to Obamacare. The reform law passed by referendum, narrowly. The result two decades later: quality of care remains very high, everyone has access, and costs have moderated. Switzerland spends 11% of its GDP on health care, compared with 17% in the U.S. Its 8 million people have health care that is not tied to their employers, they can choose among many plans, and they can switch plans every year. Overall satisfaction with the system is high.

TIME: Fareed Zakaria

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Isn't Switzerland the Conservative Utopia of Europe?

 

[Political Junky]

It seems to be working very well in Switzerland.

 

[Saigon]

Basically every civilised country in the world has had Obama care for the past 50 years.

It just amazes me how Americans have been conned into thinking countries can not provide universal healthcare, when it's not an issue at all in most countries. And at lower cost per capita than the US spends currently.

Finland has mixed public/private as well, and although it isn't perfect, it does mean anyone can see a doctor anytime, and without worrying too much about whether they can afford it.

 

[Clementine]

Did the Swiss government give themselves real time access to the people's bank accounts? Did the Swiss government use their health care bill to transfer power from the people to themselves? Do Swiss have to give a large percent to the government when they sell their homes? Does a panel of bureaucrats decide that elderly people are not worth the cost of treatment and offer pain pills instead? Do they offer free coverage to Muslims and illegal aliens? Muslims consider insurance gambling and will likely be able to opt out of the individual mandate, but will still be covered.

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

 

[Lakhota]

Did the Swiss government give themselves real time access to the people's bank accounts? Did the Swiss government use their health care bill to transfer power from the people to themselves? Do Swiss have to give a large percent to the government when they sell their homes? Does a panel of bureaucrats decide that elderly people are not worth the cost of treatment and offer pain pills instead? Do they offer free coverage to Muslims and illegal aliens? Muslims consider insurance gambling and will likely be able to opt out of the individual mandate, but will still be covered.

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

Whoa, that's some real crazy talk.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Did the Swiss government give themselves real time access to the people's bank accounts?

No. Neither does "Obamacare",

Did the Swiss government use their health care bill to transfer power from the people to themselves?

No. Neither does "Obamacare".

Do Swiss have to give a large percent to the government when they sell their homes?

Huh?

Does a panel of bureaucrats decide that elderly people are not worth the cost of treatment and offer pain pills instead?

No, and neither does "Obamacare".

Do they offer free coverage to Muslims and illegal aliens? Muslims consider insurance gambling and will likely be able to opt out of the individual mandate, but will still be covered.

What clause in "Obamacare" gives free healthcare to "illegals"? Or "Muslims"?

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

What about "Obamacare" involves "sharing costs"?

 

[Political Junky]

Did the Swiss government give themselves real time access to the people's bank accounts? Did the Swiss government use their health care bill to transfer power from the people to themselves? Do Swiss have to give a large percent to the government when they sell their homes? Does a panel of bureaucrats decide that elderly people are not worth the cost of treatment and offer pain pills instead? Do they offer free coverage to Muslims and illegal aliens? Muslims consider insurance gambling and will likely be able to opt out of the individual mandate, but will still be covered.

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

Whoa, that's some real crazy talk.

Just the same old Con talking points to protect their friends/donors in the private insurance business.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Did the Swiss government give themselves real time access to the people's bank accounts? Did the Swiss government use their health care bill to transfer power from the people to themselves? Do Swiss have to give a large percent to the government when they sell their homes? Does a panel of bureaucrats decide that elderly people are not worth the cost of treatment and offer pain pills instead? Do they offer free coverage to Muslims and illegal aliens? Muslims consider insurance gambling and will likely be able to opt out of the individual mandate, but will still be covered.

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

Whoa, that's some real crazy talk.

Just the same old Con talking points to protect their friends/donors in the private insurance business.

"Obamacare" was the best thing that ever happened to the private insurance business.

It should be. They wrote the damn bill.

 

[Chris]

The Swiss also legalized drugs.

The Swiss are very smart.

 

[Saigon]

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

And yet countries like France, Germany and the UK seem to manage fine....have you checked their unemployment rates recently?

 

[Chris]

Did the Swiss government give themselves real time access to the people's bank accounts? Did the Swiss government use their health care bill to transfer power from the people to themselves? Do Swiss have to give a large percent to the government when they sell their homes? Does a panel of bureaucrats decide that elderly people are not worth the cost of treatment and offer pain pills instead? Do they offer free coverage to Muslims and illegal aliens? Muslims consider insurance gambling and will likely be able to opt out of the individual mandate, but will still be covered.

We are a bigger country and have an inordinate amount of people on the doles. It won't be an equal sharing of costs, but an equal sharing of misery caused by waiting lists and lower quality of care. As with all taxes, the middle class will bear the brunt.

Republicans get people to hate the poor, to distract them from the fact that the rich are stealing all the money.

 

[Euroconservativ]

Even if their health care is universal and based on private insurance mandate, Switzerland has not a national/centralized Social Security system. If asked, they overwhelmingly reject it (70% voted against in 2007).

Second, Swiss immigration rules are tough and demanding. No birthright citizenship, no ius solis preference over ius sanguinis, 12 years of legal residence to become a citizen, etc

And third, we are talking about a country that recently voted against a tax hike for the rich: 59% voted against a top federal income tax rate of 22% for those earning more than 250,000 francs/year:

Swiss Voters Reject Proposal to Impose Higher Tax for Top Salary Earners - Bloomberg

And against longer holidays:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17335444

 

[Euroconservativ]

Ironically, according to the OECD (not a libertarian right-wing organization), Switzerland enjoys a better distribution of wealth than USA and the rest of Europe.

No Country Leans on Upper-Income Households as Much as U.S. | Tax Foundation

Share of market income owned by the richest 10% in Switzerland: only 23.5%

Share of taxes paid by the richest 10% in Switzerland: only 20.9%

 

[Saigon]

Ironically, according to the OECD (not a libertarian right-wing organization), Switzerland enjoys a better distribution of wealth than USA and the rest of Europe.

Not so surprising there - the only countries which compete with the US on consoldiating wealth into the hands of the few are Brazil, Mexico and China.

The US is, it seems, the only western democracy on the planet which no longer expects the American Dream to be possible for the majority of people.

 

[Saigon]

, Switzerland has not a national/centralized Social Security system. If asked, they overwhelmingly reject it (70% voted against in 2007).

That is true - but only because welfare is handled by the cantons (regions), and not by the federal state.




Switzerland


Health and welfare

Public welfare services in Switzerland have evolved in a way typical of federalism, developing first in the communes, then in the cantons, and later in the confederation. Social welfare support is primarily a communal task, sometimes in cooperation with the cantons. Social insurance, which had existed in some communes, was introduced at the federal level by a series of constitutional amendments, the most important of which was compulsory social-security insurance (introduced in 1948).

Switzerland : Health and welfare -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

 

[Euroconservativ]

, Switzerland has not a national/centralized Social Security system. If asked, they overwhelmingly reject it (70% voted against in 2007).

That is true - but only because welfare is handled by the cantons (regions), and not by the federal state.

Welfare has not the same size in every canton/state. Low federal taxes allow competition at local level, which leads to higher efficiency and responsability.

 

[Euroconservativ]

Not so surprising there - the only countries which compete with the US on consoldiating wealth into the hands of the few are Brazil, Mexico and China.

The US is, it seems, the only western democracy on the planet which no longer expects the American Dream to be possible for the majority of people.

1) Share of taxes paid by the richest 10%: USA 45.1%; Switzerland 20.9%; Average OECD 31.6%

2) Share of market income held by the richest 10%: USA 33.5%; Switzerland 23.5%; Average OECD 28.4%

3) Ratio (1/2): USA 1.35; Switzerland 0.89; Average OECD 1.11

The swedish ratio is 1.00. Meaning that their rich pay their fair share... considering that they have a VAT of 25% and higher payroll taxes

The US tax system is more progressive because, among other reasons, there is not a national VAT or Sales Tax

 

[Saigon]

EuroC -

That may be true, but let's not pretend Switzerland is either a paradise, or a suitable model for the US.

It is a tiny country, and certainly a remarkably successful, but with only 8 million people and being the home of companies like Roche, Nestle, Credit Suisse and Zurich Financial it is also somewhat of a freak. It is impossible to emulate.

I think the US has more to learn from countries like Germany, the UK nd France, that deal with more of the challenges that the US faces (mass immigration, unemployment, the economy) at a not hugely dissimilar level.

There are things the US could learn from Switzerland, but probably not economic policy.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Chris I know you have been told before and it's probably been mentioned here.

I f you want that Swiss healthcare move there no one is stopping you.