The Supposed Virgin Birth

[guno]

You know, the biggest problem I find with the Birth of Christ story is

Who is telling us this story?

It can't be first hand accounting of the Disciples--none of them meet Jesus until he is like 30.

So that seems to leave Mary or Joseph. Well, we can count Joseph out because he seems to disappear from the story when Jesus comes of age.

So is the accounting of the Virgin Birth the story of Mary? Is there a Gospel of Mary out there that we don't know about?



Come to think about it, almost the first third of the book of Matthew could not be first hand accounting of the disciples either, because it reference them and how he met/chose them after some part of that Gospel has been written.


Pretty weird stuff, huh? We do not know who were the witness for these events. But we can deduce easily that it was not the Disciples.

Nearly half of the New Testament is a forgery, according to a provocative new book that charges the Apostle Paul authored only a fraction of the letters attributed to him and the Apostle Peter wrote nothing.

Written by Bart Ehrman, a former evangelical Christian and now agnostic professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, the book claims to unveil "one of the most unsettling ironies of the early Christian tradition": the use of deception to promote the truth.

"The Bible not only contains untruths of accidental mistakes. It also contains what almost anyone today would call lies," Ehrman writes in "Forged: Writing in the Name of God — Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are."

Forgeries in the Bible s New Testament Discovery News

 

[guno]

You know, the biggest problem I find with the Birth of Christ story is

Who is telling us this story?

It can't be first hand accounting of the Disciples--none of them meet Jesus until he is like 30.

So that seems to leave Mary or Joseph. Well, we can count Joseph out because he seems to disappear from the story when Jesus comes of age.

So is the accounting of the Virgin Birth the story of Mary? Is there a Gospel of Mary out there that we don't know about?



Come to think about it, almost the first third of the book of Matthew could not be first hand accounting of the disciples either, because it reference them and how he met/chose them after some part of that Gospel has been written.


Pretty weird stuff, huh? We do not know who were the witness for these events. But we can deduce easily that it was not the Disciples.

Nearly half of the New Testament is a forgery, according to a provocative new book that charges the Apostle Paul authored only a fraction of the letters attributed to him and the Apostle Peter wrote nothing.

Written by Bart Ehrman, a former evangelical Christian and now agnostic professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, the book claims to unveil "one of the most unsettling ironies of the early Christian tradition": the use of deception to promote the truth.

"The Bible not only contains untruths of accidental mistakes. It also contains what almost anyone today would call lies," Ehrman writes in "Forged: Writing in the Name of God — Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are."

Forgeries in the Bible s New Testament Discovery News

"Ehrman doesn’t confine his critique to Paul’s letters. He challenges the authenticity of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John. He says that none were written by Jesus' disciplies, citing two reasons.

He says none of the earliest gospels revealed the names of its authors, and that their current names were later added by scribes.

Ehrman also says that two of Jesus’ original disciples, John and Peter, could not have written the books attributed to them in the New Testament because they were illiterate.

“According to Acts 4:13, both Peter and his companion John, also a fisherman, wereagrammatoi, a Greek word that literally means ‘unlettered,’ that is, ‘illiterate,’ ’’ he writes.

Will the real Paul stand up?

Ehrman reserves most of his scrutiny for the writings of Paul, which make up the bulk of the New Testament. He says that only about half of the New Testament letters attributed to Paul – 7 of 13 - were actually written by him.

Paul's remaining books are forgeries, Ehrman says. His proof: inconsistencies in the language, choice of words and blatant contradiction in doctrine."

Half of New Testament forged Bible scholar says 8211 CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

 

[BreezeWood]

So that seems to leave Mary or Joseph. Well, we can count Joseph out because he seems to disappear from the story when Jesus comes of age.

one way or another, Joseph knew the truth as were he told by her she was both pregnant and a virgin. the deciples never asked J for verification - unusual for the times to say the least.

.

 

[guno]

So that seems to leave Mary or Joseph. Well, we can count Joseph out because he seems to disappear from the story when Jesus comes of age.

one way or another, Joseph knew the truth as were he told by her she was both pregnant and a virgin. the deciples never asked J for verification - unusual for the times to say the least.

.

and what kind o sign was a virgin birth, did she carr around a sign?

 

[guno]

So that seems to leave Mary or Joseph. Well, we can count Joseph out because he seems to disappear from the story when Jesus comes of age.

one way or another, Joseph knew the truth as were he told by her she was both pregnant and a virgin. the deciples never asked J for verification - unusual for the times to say the least.

.

and what kind o sign was a virgin birth, did she carr around a sign?

 

[BreezeWood]

So that seems to leave Mary or Joseph. Well, we can count Joseph out because he seems to disappear from the story when Jesus comes of age.

one way or another, Joseph knew the truth as were he told by her she was both pregnant and a virgin. the deciples never asked J for verification - unusual for the times to say the least.

.

and what kind o sign was a virgin birth, did she carr around a sign?

not sure what you mean ??? ... I believe they were married, if she said she was pregnant and a virgin she could have "proven" the point to Joseph ... or - "oh, were you not to drunk to have noticed", that works too - ( when maybe things were "not" quite right - as she poured the vintage ).

.

 

[PostmodernProph]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

Jeremiah owns guru and rents him out on weekends.....

 

[Indeependent]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

 

[PostmodernProph]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

 

[Indeependent]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[PostmodernProph]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Also the scriptures clearly allude to conjugal relations between his parents, during which evil spirits try to prevent his conception.[1] But according to later tradition, Zoroaster's mother, Dughdova, was a virgin when she conceived Zoroaster by a shaft of light.

Miraculous births - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

how much later was this "tradition" of virgin birth?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Also the scriptures clearly allude to conjugal relations between his parents, during which evil spirits try to prevent his conception.[1] But according to later tradition, Zoroaster's mother, Dughdova, was a virgin when she conceived Zoroaster by a shaft of light.

Miraculous births - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

how much later was this "tradition" of virgin birth?.....

apparently the claim of virgin birth by a shaft of light is the translation of this text....

The Avesta refers to a “kingly glory” that was inherited by Zoroaster through is mother, but it is hard to see this as equivalent to a virgin birth. - See more at: Does Zoroastrianism predate Christianity and is the idea that Christianity borrowed the resurrection of Jesus from the religion believable Evidence for Christianity

 

[SmedlyButler]

This Melchizedek fellow was a bit of a mystery man. Luckily
Herbert W. Armstrong of "The Church of the Great God" cleared up this ages-old mystery in 1972. With undeniable Christian logic and a Scholarly dedication to pristine biblical exegesis and hermeneutics he has proven Melchizedek and Christ are one and the same entity! Read on as he explains Hebrews 7 once and for all. LINK



"For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace" (Hebrews 7:1-2).

Since God names individuals what they are, that, then is what this man is.. "King of Righteousness."

Think of it! King of Righteousness.

Jesus Himself said: "There is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17). Human self-righteousness is, before God, as filthy rags. None can be righteous but God—or one made righteous by God's power—Christ in a person! And certainly none but One of the Godhead the divine Kingdom of God would be King of Righteousness. Such an expression, applied to any but God, would be blasphemous. Why?

Righteousness is obedience to God's Law. Since God made all laws (James 4:12), He is Supreme Ruler or King. He determines what righteousness is. "All thy commandments are righteousness" (Psalm 119:172). When speaking of one of the points of that Law, Jesus placed Himself superior to it. He is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). No man is Lord or King over God's Law. Only God could be! All human beings have sinned and broken that Law of righteousness (Romans 3:23).

To continue with Hebrews 7. Note, too, that this man was King of peace. "Salem" from which Jerusalem was named means "peace." And remember, Jesus is called the Prince of peace! No human being could be King of Peace. Men know not the way of peace. Read Romans 3:10and 17: "There is none righteous, no, not one.... And the way of peace have they not known."

Observe further: Melchizedek was "without mother, without father, without descent," or as the Phillips translation renders it: "He had no father or mother and no family tree." He was not born as human beings are. He was without father and mother. This does not mean that Melchizedek's records of birth were lost. Without such records human priests could not serve (Ezra 2:62). But here Melchizedek had no genealogy. He must not have been an ordinary mortal. He had no descent or pedigree from another, but was self-existent. Notice Paul's own inspired interpretation of this fact: "Having neither beginning of days, nor end of life" (Hebrews 7:3). Therefore He has always existed from eternity! He was not even created, like angels. But He is now eternally self-existing. And that is true only of GOD deity, not humanity!

Not the Father Nor the Holy Spirit

Yet Melchizedek cannot be God the Father. He was the "priest of that Most High God." Scripture says no man has ever seen the Father (John 1:18, 5:37), but Abraham saw Melchizedek. He cannot be God the Father, but rather, "made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually" (Hebrews 7:3).

And there it is! In the days of Abraham, He was not the Son of God, for He had not yet been born of the virgin Mary but He was made like unto the Son of God in His manifestation to the ancients.

Notice again: Melchizedek, this scripture reveals, abides that is, remains permanently, continually, a priest. God the Father is not the Priest of God, but Christ the Son is! Yet, in the days when the Apostle Paul lived and wrote, shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven as High Priest, the scripture states that even then Melchizedek "abideth "—which means does now abide—"a priest continually." The Moffatt translation states it: "continues to be priest permanently" even while Jesus Christ is High Priest!

And notice that the order of Christ's Priesthood is named after Melchizedek. It is the High Priest's name that is placed upon an order just as Aaron's name was upon the Aaronic priesthood. Thus Melchizedek was then High Priest, in Paul's day, and even now, and He will rule forever! And at the same time Christ was, is today, and shall be forever High Priest!

Are there two High Priests'? No! Impossible! The conclusion is inescapable. Contrary to many cherished man-thought-out ideas, Melchizedek and Christ are one and the same!
​

 

[SmedlyButler]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

This story of Buddhas birth from About.com sounds a lot like Virgin Birth. Why do you say it isn't?;

"One day during a midsummer festival, his wife Queen Maya retired to her quarters to rest, and she fell asleep and dreamed a vivid dream. Four angels carried her high into white mountain peaks and clothed her in flowers. A magnificent white bull elephant bearing a white lotus in its trunk approached Maya and walked around her three times. Then the elephant struck her on the right side with its trunk and vanished into her.

When Maya awoke, she told her husband about the dream. The King summoned 64 Brahmans to come and interpret it. Queen Maya would give birth to a son, the Brahmans said, and if the son did not leave the household he would become a world conqueror. However, if he were to leave the household he would become a Buddha.

When the time for the birth grew near, Queen Maya wished to travel from Kapilavatthu, the King’s capital, to her childhood home, Devadaha, to give birth. With the King’s blessings she left Kapilavatthu on a palanquin carried by a thousand courtiers.

On the way to Devadaha, the procession passed Lumbini Grove, which was full of blossoming trees. Entranced, the Queen asked her courtiers to stop, and she left the palanquin and entered the grove. As she reached up to touch the blossoms, her son was born.

Then the Queen and her son were showered with perfumed blossoms, and two streams of sparkling water poured from the sky to bathe them. And the infant stood, and took seven steps, and proclaimed “I alone am the World-Honored One!”

 

[THE LIGHT]

Isaiah 7:14 – A Virgin Birth?

Jews For Judaism Isaiah 7 14 8211 A Virgin Birth

Why do Christians try to convert Jews to a pagan religion?

Christians don't try to convert Jews to a pagan religion but from a pagan religion just as the prophet Jeremiah did.

As for your OP, Yahsua was fully God and fully man, therefore, John did not mention the virgin birth because he chose to focus his genealogy on the eternal nature of Yashua, thus you have "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

 

[BillyP]

I bet Joseph jumped Mary right after they were married. They always portray him as a dirty old man.

 

[BillyP]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

In other words, he has no proof.

 

[PostmodernProph]

All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years

hey guru, remember the last time you made this claim and I proved you were lying but you ran away and never responded?.......I do.......

Out of curiosity, what is your proof?

the actual mythologies of those who the atheists claim had virgin births....so far, in every one claimed, the stories surrounding the deity didn't actually mention a virgin birth until some atheist posted it on his website.....
so far we've covered the "virginity" of Isis who impregnated herself with a golden dildo made from her dead husband's penis, the virgin birth of Buddha who was the seventh son of his parents and seven or eight others......if you think you have one we missed I will be glad to prove you wrong.....

This story of Buddhas birth from About.com sounds a lot like Virgin Birth. Why do you say it isn't?;

/boggle......the six sons she already had argue against it......

 

[Delta4Embassy]

"The Virgin Birth is a fundamental tenet of most forms of Christianity. Yet it is very odd that none of the earlier Christian books mention it. The book of Mark, probably the first written, makes no mention of it at all. One would think that it would be worth at least one sentence, if not the amount spent on it by the book of Matthew. It is evident that Mark had never heard of the Virgin Birth. The book of John does not mention it either.

The reason that the virgin birth concept was added to Christianity was because the first Christians were very unsuccessful at converting Jews. Most Jews knew they had something better, so they would not leave Judaism for Christianity. Remember: at the beginning it was nothing more than a very small messianic movement within Judaism, and after their "messiah" died, it was rather hard to convert Jews to their movement.

So the Christians had to do something different. They had to develop appeal. So, they began to assume beliefs that pagan people found attractive. That was how they came up with the concepts of the trinity, transubstantiation, the need to "save" everyone through the resurrection of a messiah, virgin birth, and all the other wacky ideas of Christianity. All these were lifted straight from other religions, some of which preceded Christianity by 700 years, Pagans just lapped up things like demigods, gods having intercourse with humans, virgins giving birth. Such claims meant something to pagans, and they were already familiar with such beliefs from their own cultures. So leaving a pagan religion to join Christianity was not much of a stretch, especially after Paul declared that the pagans did not need to keep the Commandments of the Torah."

The Supposed Virgin Birth

Interestingly, not all of Christianity agrees on the virgin birth idea. Guess some are relatively educated.

Really good, if long, thing here about a Jewish challenge sent to the Vatican concerning the whole Jesus is Messiah thing,
The Catholic Church s Response to Our Critique of Christian Credibility - Lawrence Kelemen Permission To Receive

" (3) The genealogical line linking Jesus and King David seems to pass through Jesus’ father. But since Jesus was the product of a virgin conception, then he does not share in his father’s Davidic ancestry. How is Jesus a descendent of David?"

Another sorta general mythology/religious challenge about it here,
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth Pagan Origins virgin birth

" Was Christianity new? Was Christianity unique? It's talk about virgin birth.

According to one story, the Roman Emperor Augustus's mother was worshipping in the temple of Apollo when she fell asleep and was impregnated by the god [Suetonius Lives of the Caesars: Augustus 94]
Other examples of virgin born Gods
Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki
Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele.
Buddha too was born of a virgin,
The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son.
Scandinavian Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin and bore Balder, the healer and savior of mankind..."

So religions which predate Christianity had virign birth central figures too. Makes Christianity seem at best, classical, but at worst, unoriginal and plagiaristic.