The Stimulus, The DOE, and Solar Power

[Quantum Windbag]

Well lookie here...solar panels are making our troops safer you fucking morons.

Solar Updates Marines' Arsenal

and look what the Brits are up to...

‘Solar Soldier’ Project Creating Power-Harvesting Uniforms for British Infantry

Oh, hot damn...here's China goddamn beating us AGAIN...(I'm a little tired of it, personally)

China's 'Solar City'

How does that justify the federal government trying to put solar panels on roofs across the country?

 

[Mustang]

Well lookie here...solar panels are making our troops safer you fucking morons.

Solar Updates Marines' Arsenal

and look what the Brits are up to...

‘Solar Soldier’ Project Creating Power-Harvesting Uniforms for British Infantry

Oh, hot damn...here's China goddamn beating us AGAIN...(I'm a little tired of it, personally)

China's 'Solar City'

How does that justify the federal government trying to put solar panels on roofs across the country?

The Federal Gov't is not putting solar panels on roofs. They're not federal workers.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Solar and wind energy are supplemental at best. It would be nice to employ that technology when building new house and such...when it's affordable. As far as a remedy to our energy needs, it's just not happening. They're not concentrated.

Gee, so if it only supplies 30% of our nations power needs we shouldn't do it?

Keep throwing money away on that finite fuel source, oil? That makes SO much more sense...

In order to build a solar array that supplies 30% of the nation's power needs we would need to build a plant that covers about 63 million square miles if we use the current high yield process of focusing mirrors on a central tower. That is almost the size of Wisconsin.

Do you think we can do that and not have a negative impact on the environment, global warming, and everything else you are trying to avoid? Why isn't anyone who is talking about solar power mentioning the fact that if takes up so much land that it is completely impractical? Could it be because the government is trying to promote something, and no one wants to argue with the free money they are being given?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Having 30% of our energy needs met by solar is a very achievable goal.

No it isn't. It only sounds achievable if you do not understand all the factors involved.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well lookie here...solar panels are making our troops safer you fucking morons.

Solar Updates Marines' Arsenal

and look what the Brits are up to...

‘Solar Soldier’ Project Creating Power-Harvesting Uniforms for British Infantry

Oh, hot damn...here's China goddamn beating us AGAIN...(I'm a little tired of it, personally)

China's 'Solar City'

How does that justify the federal government trying to put solar panels on roofs across the country?

The Federal Gov't is not putting solar panels on roofs. They're not federal workers.

The DOE is not the federal government?

When did that happen?

 

[Mustang]

How does that justify the federal government trying to put solar panels on roofs across the country?

The Federal Gov't is not putting solar panels on roofs. They're not federal workers.

The DOE is not the federal government?

When did that happen?

Did you even read the article?

 

[martybegan]

Solar and wind energy are supplemental at best. It would be nice to employ that technology when building new house and such...when it's affordable. As far as a remedy to our energy needs, it's just not happening. They're not concentrated.

Gee, so if it only supplies 30% of our nations power needs we shouldn't do it?

Keep throwing money away on that finite fuel source, oil? That makes SO much more sense...

In order to build a solar array that supplies 30% of the nation's power needs we would need to build a plant that covers about 63 million square miles if we use the current high yield process of focusing mirrors on a central tower. That is almost the size of Wisconsin.

Do you think we can do that and not have a negative impact on the environment, global warming, and everything else you are trying to avoid? Why isn't anyone who is talking about solar power mentioning the fact that if takes up so much land that it is completely impractical? Could it be because the government is trying to promote something, and no one wants to argue with the free money they are being given?

One could get around the size limitations with a more efficient photovolactic, but those arent ready for industrial use yet.

Wisconsin? Really? Is that for electrical generation only? Because if you include vehicular energy use in the 30% that would be unfair. What would 30% of electrical use only cover in SQ miles? I will try to look up.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Federal Gov't is not putting solar panels on roofs. They're not federal workers.

The DOE is not the federal government?

When did that happen?

Did you even read the article?

The U.S. Department of Energy said on Wednesday it's offering a partial guarantee for a $1.4 billion loan that will fund Project Amp, which will erect solar panels on hundreds of rooftops around the country. The project is the largest rooftop solar plan in the country.

Again, is the DOE part of the federal government?

I have no problem with solar energy, in theory, I just object to federal tax dollars being spent to fund it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gee, so if it only supplies 30% of our nations power needs we shouldn't do it?

Keep throwing money away on that finite fuel source, oil? That makes SO much more sense...

In order to build a solar array that supplies 30% of the nation's power needs we would need to build a plant that covers about 63 million square miles if we use the current high yield process of focusing mirrors on a central tower. That is almost the size of Wisconsin.

Do you think we can do that and not have a negative impact on the environment, global warming, and everything else you are trying to avoid? Why isn't anyone who is talking about solar power mentioning the fact that if takes up so much land that it is completely impractical? Could it be because the government is trying to promote something, and no one wants to argue with the free money they are being given?

One could get around the size limitations with a more efficient photovolactic, but those arent ready for industrial use yet.

Wisconsin? Really? Is that for electrical generation only? Because if you include vehicular energy use in the 30% that would be unfair. What would 30% of electrical use only cover in SQ miles? I will try to look up.

That is electricity use only, based on 2008 figures and the new, high efficiency plants being built in the Mojave. If we use 2011 figures I am sure the land are will increase. Probably not enough to push the numbers past Wisconsin though because there is about 2 million square miles of Wisconsin that still need to be converted before we have to annex another state.

I also uses a multiplying fudge factor for clouds and the fact that solar panels only produce electricity during the day. That factor is open for debate, but even without it solar generation is impractical at the current tech level.

 

[martybegan]

In order to build a solar array that supplies 30% of the nation's power needs we would need to build a plant that covers about 63 million square miles if we use the current high yield process of focusing mirrors on a central tower. That is almost the size of Wisconsin.

Do you think we can do that and not have a negative impact on the environment, global warming, and everything else you are trying to avoid? Why isn't anyone who is talking about solar power mentioning the fact that if takes up so much land that it is completely impractical? Could it be because the government is trying to promote something, and no one wants to argue with the free money they are being given?

One could get around the size limitations with a more efficient photovolactic, but those arent ready for industrial use yet.

Wisconsin? Really? Is that for electrical generation only? Because if you include vehicular energy use in the 30% that would be unfair. What would 30% of electrical use only cover in SQ miles? I will try to look up.

That is electricity use only, based on 2008 figures and the new, high efficiency plants being built in the Mojave. If we use 2011 figures I am sure the land are will increase. Probably not enough to push the numbers past Wisconsin though because there is about 2 million square miles of Wisconsin that still need to be converted before we have to annex another state.

I also uses a multiplying fudge factor for clouds and the fact that solar panels only produce electricity during the day. That factor is open for debate, but even without it solar generation is impractical at the current tech level.

This is where natural gas plants come into play. As they are quick on/quick off they would be great compliments to solar facilties. Of course building a dual facility like this is more capital cost, but I would assume it would be viable, as you would reduce your fuel consumption when the solar is up and running, and have instant grid viable backup when its night/cloudy.

 

[asterism]

Well lookie here...solar panels are making our troops safer you fucking morons.

Solar Updates Marines' Arsenal

and look what the Brits are up to...

‘Solar Soldier’ Project Creating Power-Harvesting Uniforms for British Infantry

Oh, hot damn...here's China goddamn beating us AGAIN...(I'm a little tired of it, personally)

China's 'Solar City'

There is a big difference between tiny solar applications, and solar arrays poweful enough to either provide electricity for a house, or for a part of the grid. Something you just dont seem to get.

You mean like the solar city or the arrays that are powering our troops bases in Afghanistan? Like those? (which is making them SAFER)

Show me where solar is powering bases in Afghanistan? They are powering low wattage radios.

The cleaning thing is also an issue, one you seem to ignore.

Again, you can't get something from nothing.

Nobody is saying you can, but we aren't even taking baby steps to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. The US, the "innovators" are WAY behind other countries in the use of renewable energy.

Cleaning? Really? That's your big hangup, cleaning?

Dirty solar panels don't power anything. Where does a combat team get water in the desert?

 

[asterism]

There are no arrays powering our bases in Afghanistan. Read your link. The arrays are designed to recharge the batteries of the troops' personal gear. They're not powering tent city.

yeah, they are

Marines Prove Energy Efficiencies in Afghanistan

Today, at least two forward operating bases in Afghanistan are powered entirely by solar energy, and several others get at least 90 percent of their energy from the sun. Marine Corps leaders are so pleased with the outcome that they’ve written renewable energy into training plans and doctrine -- something Charette said he hopes will become joint practice with other services.

Wow...looks like they ARE powering tent cities aren't they?

I stand corrected. That's cool.

Perhaps you should have posted that link earlier when you made the claim...?

Check the details, Dave. She's claiming "bases" and "tent cities." This is a truck based team using the equivalent of a 7000 watt generator. Good for radios, but that's it.

 

[DontBeStupid]

I thought that people might like to know how some of the stimulus money is being spent. You know...winning the future?

I get the impression you think this is a bad use of funds, simply because you don't like the choice it was spent on. That's not very scientific. How could this money have been put to better use for the country? In your opinion.

 

[asterism]

You mean like the solar city or the arrays that are powering our troops bases in Afghanistan? Like those? (which is making them SAFER)

There are no arrays powering our bases in Afghanistan. Read your link. The arrays are designed to recharge the batteries of the troops' personal gear. They're not powering tent city.

yeah, they are

Marines Prove Energy Efficiencies in Afghanistan

Today, at least two forward operating bases in Afghanistan are powered entirely by solar energy, and several others get at least 90 percent of their energy from the sun. Marine Corps leaders are so pleased with the outcome that they’ve written renewable energy into training plans and doctrine -- something Charette said he hopes will become joint practice with other services.

Wow...looks like they ARE powering tent cities aren't they?

You don't seem to know what a "tent city" or a "base" is. A "forward operating base" is the equivalent of a small house. That solar array pictured wouldn't even run a whole house air conditioner.

Also you'll note that there is no mention of cost, and that's valid for a warzone. Expensive solar power is better than cheap diesel if transport is risky. That doesn't mean it's a workable solution back home.

 

[Mustang]

I thought that people might like to know how some of the stimulus money is being spent. You know...winning the future?

I get the impression you think this is a bad use of funds, simply because you don't like the choice it was spent on. That's not very scientific. How could this money have been put to better use for the country? In your opinion.

I like it just fine. It's years overdue.

 

[DontBeStupid]

I thought that people might like to know how some of the stimulus money is being spent. You know...winning the future?

I get the impression you think this is a bad use of funds, simply because you don't like the choice it was spent on. That's not very scientific. How could this money have been put to better use for the country? In your opinion.

I like it just fine. It's years overdue.

My bad

 

[daveman]

yeah, they are

Marines Prove Energy Efficiencies in Afghanistan

Today, at least two forward operating bases in Afghanistan are powered entirely by solar energy, and several others get at least 90 percent of their energy from the sun. Marine Corps leaders are so pleased with the outcome that they’ve written renewable energy into training plans and doctrine -- something Charette said he hopes will become joint practice with other services.

Wow...looks like they ARE powering tent cities aren't they?

I stand corrected. That's cool.

Perhaps you should have posted that link earlier when you made the claim...?

Check the details, Dave. She's claiming "bases" and "tent cities." This is a truck based team using the equivalent of a 7000 watt generator. Good for radios, but that's it.

I know -- most FOBs are just a handful of guys. I'd get requests for 60kW diesel generators all the time from Marine and Army FOBs, and they'd be vastly underloaded. But 60kW is the smallest unit we had on the shelf.

 

[daveman]

There are no arrays powering our bases in Afghanistan. Read your link. The arrays are designed to recharge the batteries of the troops' personal gear. They're not powering tent city.

yeah, they are

Marines Prove Energy Efficiencies in Afghanistan

Today, at least two forward operating bases in Afghanistan are powered entirely by solar energy, and several others get at least 90 percent of their energy from the sun. Marine Corps leaders are so pleased with the outcome that they’ve written renewable energy into training plans and doctrine -- something Charette said he hopes will become joint practice with other services.

Wow...looks like they ARE powering tent cities aren't they?

You don't seem to know what a "tent city" or a "base" is. A "forward operating base" is the equivalent of a small house. That solar array pictured wouldn't even run a whole house air conditioner.

Also you'll note that there is no mention of cost, and that's valid for a warzone. Expensive solar power is better than cheap diesel if transport is risky. That doesn't mean it's a workable solution back home.

An 1100-man tent city comes with 4 each 750kW generators, 3 on-line and one maintenance spare. That's 2.25 megawatts.

There aren't enough military solar panels in the entire Middle East to generate that much power.

 

[driveby]

I thought that people might like to know how some of the stimulus money is being spent. You know...winning the future?

The U.S. Department of Energy said on Wednesday it's offering a partial guarantee for a $1.4 billion loan that will fund Project Amp, which will erect solar panels on hundreds of rooftops around the country. The project is the largest rooftop solar plan in the country.

Through a loan guarantee, the government promises to repay the loan if the borrower can't. The DOE didn't specify how much of the $1.4 billion loan for Project Amp it is guaranteeing. The FIPP program allows the DOE to back 80 percent of a loan. FIPP focuses on backing projects that use more mature technologies, and it relies on private investors to secure the loans. In another part of the loan guarantee program, the government will provide the loans as well, through the Federal Financing Bank.
Project Amp will be carried out in phases. NRG Energy is the lead investor in the first phase, which will include a 15.4 MW array in Southern California. Southern California Edison will buy power from phase 1 of the project, which could add solar in as many as 28 states and the District of Columbia. Construction of the 15.4 MW project will begin before Sept. 30 this year.



In addition to the loan guarantee for Project Amp, the DOE has backed large solar farms in other regions of California and other southwestern states. Those projects include a 500 MW solar farm (part of a 1,000 MW project) by Solar Trust Of America, which held a ground breaking ceremony for the project in California last week. Another one under construction is a 392 MW plant in California by BrightSource Energy.

Amp Is Largest Solar Rooftop Project In America

Solar is subsidized out the ass and it still can't compete in the market, get a clue.....

 

[Mustang]

The DOE is not the federal government?

When did that happen?

Did you even read the article?

The U.S. Department of Energy said on Wednesday it's offering a partial guarantee for a $1.4 billion loan that will fund Project Amp, which will erect solar panels on hundreds of rooftops around the country. The project is the largest rooftop solar plan in the country.

Again, is the DOE part of the federal government?

I have no problem with solar energy, in theory, I just object to federal tax dollars being spent to fund it.

My understanding is that federal dollars are partially guaranteeing loans. The money is not directly spent on solar panels.

However, gov't has every reason (and right) to spend federal tax dollars to retrofit gov't bldgs with solar panels just like they're spending federal dollars to better insulate gov't bldgs.

Additonally, I anticipate the the gov't will spend money on the purchase of fleets of cars and trucks that are either hybrids or are powered by means other than just gas or diesel engines.