The Stereotyping of Vietnam Combat Veterans

[MikeK]

Don't blame the draft. Most of those who fought in WW-II were drafted and there are extremely few reported instances of Americans behaving barbarically toward captured Germans or Japanese soldiers, or any civilians, regardless of who or where.

I think I'd have to disagree with that statement, especially concerning the Pacific war.

Please feel free to document your disagreement. I'd be interested in learning what you know which conflicts with what I've been led to believe, mainly by my own father who served in the Pacific and had many tales to tell. I'm aware there were isolated instances of cruelty in the combat zones, but for the most part instances of organized and systematic brutality, such as the Bataan Death March and the treatment of prisoners in Japanese camps, are reflective of the kind of cultural cruelty attributed to U.S. troops in Vietnam and in Iraq.

While I'm aware the actions of some do not define the character of all, which applies to the Japanese and the Germans as well as Americans, but the fact remains that impressions have been cast and they endure. The fact is American troops in WW-II were never associated with the kind of violations of Geneva Conventions standards our more contemporary military has become infamously known for.

But the only point I tried to make is my belief that the reason for the difference in behavior is the stark difference in the sense of purpose. Our WW-II troops had good and noble cause to engage in that carnage but the same cannot be said for those who were and are being misused in Vietnam and the Middle East. The American troops in WW-II were defending their Country. Those who served in Vietnam and the Middle East served and are serving the government. And even though many are not aware of that, or prefer not to be aware of it, the truth resides in the atmosphere and cannot be ignored.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You wrote, "The fact is American troops in WW-II were never associated with the kind of violations of Geneva Conventions standards our more contemporary military has become infamously known for."

Systematic and organized disregard for Geneva was practiced far more by our enemies.

But if you do not think the Pacific War by 1944 had not degenerated into a blood bath by both sides, or many of our guys in Vietnam did not engage in trophy hunting and 'wasting', your objectivity is non-existent.

 

[usmcstinger]

How the hell would I know? You can't see the Delta from I-Corps.




You were fortunate. Of course, the DMZ was only unpopulated because the civilians had been forcibly "resettled," which was an American euphemism for putting them into barbed wire camps. That's what anyone else would call a jail.



Never? What'd you do? Sleep through your tour?



Aw, shit. Here we go with the BS again. Yeah, yeah...we all know the Marines are just superior human beings. :roll eyes:

Of course, it WAS a Marine patrol Morley Safer filmed burning a village, which set off a shit storm here at home. Remember that?

ps: Ever hear of Son Thang? Look it up.

Morley Safer never told the whole story.On August 3, 1965, a reinforced marine rifle company was sent on a search and destroy operation against a complex of six hamlets named Cam Ne 4, south-southwest of the Danang air base. The area around Cam Ne 4 had long been controlled and occupied by the NLF, and spread throughout the villages were trenches, fighting holes, tactical caves and tunnels. Almost impenetrable thorny hedgerows around the villages and hamlets were often mined and booby-trapped.
Approaching the village , the third platoon on the right flank drew sustained sniper and automatic weapons fire. After a short time, the NLF, estimated at about 30, withdrew, but progress in penetrating the hamlet , checking civilians and huts, and in searching for booby traps and mines was nevertheless slow. Some houses were burned as a result of being hit by infantry weapons in reply to enemy fire. Others, after the villagers had been called together –outside- the dwellings, were set afire or blown up in order to ensure that the firing positions and tunnels around the houses would not again become military installations. In one of the huts, fired upon when the NLF had taken cover in it, was a dead Vietnamese boy of about 10 years of age. Several other civilians were wounded and so were four marines.
Zippo raids

Yeah, I heard about it
Son Thang-4 Five Marines killed five women and eleven children.
5 Marines out of the 293,000 that served in Vietnam.

The letter reads: "‘A battalion [sic] would kill maybe 15 to 20 [civilians] a day. With 4 batalions in the brigade that would be maybe 40 to 50 a day or 1,200 to 1,500 a month, easy. If I am only 10% right, and believe me it’s lots more, then I am trying to tell you about 120-150 murders, or a My Lay [sic] each month for over a year.’"
The Vietnam War
My point that Marines were more disciplined and had better leadership is correct

Generals Krulak and Walt thought the Communist leaders wanted to draw the Marines out of the populated I Corps coastal area into a campaign of attrition in the underpopulated areas of northern Quang Tri province.
If you knew anything about the the area, you would know it was not a area that the Vietnamese would want to live in. Any movement of civilians was conducted by the South Vietnamese Army.

moral of the story... don't read garbage in the rightwingnut blogosphere so you can revise history.

Dimwit this has all been documented. Read " U.S. Marines in Vietnam-Fighting The North Vietnamese Army 1967.

The only thing you know about Vietnam is that you were never there. If it possible stick to something you know about.

 

[Jroc]

I was separated from the U.S. Army with an honorable discharge late in 1971

Went back to my home town and married my high schol sweetheart.

No one ever asked me where I had been; and I never brought the subject up in conversation.

Enrolled in college on the G.I. Bill and worked several jobs until I graduated.

Started a career, bought a home, and raised 6 children.

Never knew I was supposed to be a drug addicted and homeless psychopathic loner Vietnam Vet with homicidal tendencies until I saw how we were portrayed in movies like Rambo and on TV.

Where did I go wrong??

How about the part where you became a racist and a muslim?

Not a racist; but yes, I am a muslim...........

If this guy is actually a Veitnam vet They should disown him he's an embarresment

My solution to the Jewish problem.

Would be to round them up world wide and find and island to quarantine them on.

There are several islands in the world that could easily contain the 13 million Jews that currently reside in various nations and Israel.

This way the Jews could build the ultimate Hebrew society they have always dreamed of.

Several gun boats would patrol the waters around the island to prevent any Jews from trying to escape.

This way the Jews could be protected from harm; and the world could finally have peace and security.

Thus a Win = Win for both Jews and Gentiles

 

[Sunni Man]

If this guy is actually a Veitnam vet: They should disown him he's an embarresment

What exactly have I done that I should be disowned or makes me an embarrassment?

 

[MikeK]

You wrote, "The fact is American troops in WW-II were never associated with the kind of violations of Geneva Conventions standards our more contemporary military has become infamously known for."

Systematic and organized disregard for Geneva was practiced far more by our enemies.

But if you do not think the Pacific War by 1944 had not degenerated into a blood bath by both sides, or many of our guys in Vietnam did not engage in trophy hunting and 'wasting', your objectivity is non-existent.

Can you supply some examples? Or at least cite your sources? Am I correct in assuming you were not personally involved in WW-II.

 

[JakeStarkey]

My sources are my dad (infantry) and my step-father (marines) for the Philippines, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. I have talked with 7 or 8 of their comrades who served with them. All of them were19, 20, 21 at the time of the war. Any history book of the Okinawa campaign will carry the civilian casualty (estimated) numbers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your solution concerning the Jews is offensive to Allah by Islam's scripture and moral codes. For shame on you.

If this guy is actually a Veitnam vet: They should disown him he's an embarresment

What exactly have I done that I should be disowned or makes me an embarrassment?

 

[MikeK]

My German-born grandfather lived near Shanks Village, NY, which was less than a mile from an Army base, Camp Shanks, in upstate New York. During WW-II the Army had set up a POW camp there which housed hundreds of captured German soldiers along with some Italians. When it snowed the Army brought out gangs of POWs to shovel and clear the roads. My grandfather would go out and talk with some of the German prisoners and it was commonly known they wouldn't have escaped even if there weren't any guards. They were perfectly content to sit out the remainder of the War in that place, where they ate well and were quite comfortable.

I've even read about some POW camps in Germany where British and American prisoners were treated in strict accordance with the Geneva Conventions and were never mistreated. Compare that with some of the Japanese POW camps. And compare it with Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. That's what I'm talking about -- not the kind of madness that takes place on the battlefield. To categorize the difference I'll call one type of barbarism spontaneous cruelty, which is prompted by the raw insanity of armed combat, while the other type is organized, systematic cruelty, which reflects the character of a given culture.

I suppose the bottom line of what I'm saying is the character of American culture seems to have changed substantially since the 1940s.

 

[Unkotare]

And compare it with Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. That's what I'm talking about --

What are you talking about? Abu Ghraib was a crime, whose perpetrators were persecuted and punished by law. At Guantanamo, enemy combatants are treated with remarkable consideration. I guess what you are really talking about is an agenda you are trying too hard to fit history into.

 

[Unkotare]

I suppose the bottom line of what I'm saying is the character of American culture seems to have changed substantially since the 1940s.

It has, if anything, become more humane.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Can't argue with your conclusion.

Yes, the "spontaneous cruelty of the battleground" infected American troops, too.

My friends had almost a dozen German and Italian POW camps in East Texas, and the stories of the interactions between the "enemy" and "the country locals" are very interesting.

I agree with the comment above about Abu Graib and Gitmo.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Mikey:
But the only point I tried to make is my belief that the reason for the difference in behavior is the stark difference in the sense of purpose. Our WW-II troops had good and noble cause to engage in that carnage but the same cannot be said for those who were and are being misused in Vietnam and the Middle East. The American troops in WW-II were defending their Country. Those who served in Vietnam and the Middle East served and are serving the government. And even though many are not aware of that, or prefer not to be aware of it, the truth resides in the atmosphere and cannot be ignored.

Sorry, but that's some seriously silly shit right there.

Our WW-II troops had good and noble cause to engage in that carnage but the same cannot be said for those who were and are being misused in Vietnam and the Middle East.
Bullshit. The cause was neither more nor less good and noble during WWII than any other conflict. And we were no more or less "misused".

Those who served in Vietnam and the Middle East served and are serving the government. And even though many are not aware of that, or prefer not to be aware of it, the truth resides in the atmosphere and cannot be ignored.
Again, bullshit. What makes you think you can make up "Truth" out of pure fansy and have anyone take you seriously. You sound like just one more corrupt politician trying to reshape history to fit his agenda.

Kerry was and is a liar and an asshole.