The Slavery Shakedown

[Merlin1047]

Nobody is going to pay anybody reparations, don't get worked up over it.

Don't be too darn sure about that. If Billary is elected in '08 there's no telling what kind of crap will hit the fan.

Personally, my view is we've been paying reparations in the form of welfare, public housing and preferential quotas for quite a long time.

 

[Merlin1047]

African Americans: Yes, for a few more decades, but the white children being born right now should be spared this, and only the older generation should pay this price.

Native Americans: Yes, similar to African Americans but maybe a few more decades attached.

Hispanic or Latin Americans: No and definitely No after all how many are decedents from those that came to the US after 1965. How many are decedents of illegal immigrant. I don’t think we owe this group anything.

Asian American: For the most part they are like White American, and most have come since the civil right movements of the 1960’s. They really don’t need any special help or deserve it. So just leave this group alone.

The "older generation"? Who the hell is that? I'm 57, so I suppose in your view I qualify. I've never owned a slave, I've never mistreated a black person, matter of fact I was probably on the cutting edge of equal opportunity since I grew up as an Army brat and then entered the service myself. Furthermore sonny, I can't think of anyone of us "oldsters" who owned slaves, imported slaves, or sold or purchased a slave. So careful to whom you assign the task of paying for your misplaced, and unsupportable sympathies.

We've been throwing money at poor black people and organizations for decades and where has it gotten us? Seems to me that the "reparations" some are squawking about have been paid over and over again. It's time to stop feeling guilty for what went on two hundred years ago. I WASN'T RESPONSIBLE for slavery. If reparations advocates want justice, let them exhume the bodies of known slave traders and owners and check the coffins for any loose change - that's a reparation they'd be welcome to as far as I'm concerned. Today, the only thing we "owe" black people is a level playing field.

We trampled over native Americans in our zeal to tame the nation. The fact that they were here first was an inconvenient detail which our didn't seem to bother the consciences of our forefathers. We owe American Indians a debt not only from an ethical view but also legally since there are treaties involved. But even here, the ethics of the situation are diminishing with time and the only legitimate claim native Americans have to any kind of reparation is the result of treaty obligations.

I'm not sure why you even mention Hispanics or Asians. Not a single one of these people came here involuntarily. Were some the victims of discrimination? You betcha. So what? Yes, that's unfortunate, but there is no requirement within our laws to pay people because others didn't like them very much.

So be a little more careful to whom you assign responsibility for paying a debt which we never owed to begin with. Either we all owe it, or none of us currently living owes anything. And if you refer to me as the "older generation" again, I'll whack your ass with my walker.

 

[Nienna]

I once made this argument...

My traced ancestors came to this country in the late 1800s, after slavery was outlawed. As far as we can tell, they never owned slaves.

Most African-Americans are not "black," but brown. They have had "white" ancestors in the past. It's known that many white slave owners took advantage of their black female slaves and fathered children by them.

Therefore, it could be that some of the "black" people today have more likelihood of having a slave-owning ancestor than I did. They should pay themselves reparation, and that would be the end of that!

 

[Annie]

Lots of links and horrible pics of abused slaves at site:

http://www.instapunk.com/archives/InstaPunkArchiveV2.php3?a=549#

[...much] Jacoby concludes by suggesting that reparations are a Pandora's Box which will do little good to open and may do much harm, including the exacerbation of national wounds that should be permitted to heal:

America long ago paid the price for slavery: a horrific Civil War that killed 620,000 soldiers, more than half of them from the North. It is as vile to insist that white Americans today owe a debt for slavery as it would be to insist that black Americans owe a debt for freedom. What the reparations extremists are demanding would make a mockery of historical truth and inflame racial strife. Their cynicism is toxic, and corporate America had better find the courage to say so. [emphasis added]

His article is worth reading in full (registration required), but his appeal to reason, forgiveness, and institutional guts seems unlikely to stem the tide that is now building to flood force. Therefore, I am going to take the argument precisely in the direction decried by the sentence boldfaced above -- not for the purpose of transforming the descendants of slaves into debtors, but to illuminate the only rational basis on which reparations could be calculated in dollars and cents. I know that it's risky to apply cold logic to an issue so fueled by emotion, but I ask readers to follow my logic to its conclusion before exploding in righteous fury.

The first step is to acknowledge that any claim of reparations pursued through the courts now is on behalf of people who have not themselves been slaves. The specific pain and suffering illustrated by the photograph(s) above was committed by people who are now dead against victims who are now dead. All possibility of reparations as a moral expiation of guilt is moot because all parties to the immoral acts involved have been deceased for about a century. For this reason, the question of what reparations might be owed to the descendants of slaves must be a purely financial one, computed in terms of opportunity cost; that is, what financial losses are still being experienced by African-Americans that they wouldn't be experiencing if slavery had never existed in this country.

It is easy to see that the only valid comparisons we can make in this regard are between contemporary African-Americans and contemporary sub-Saharan Africans. The latter are the control population -- that population which was NOT captured, chained, sold to slave traders, and carried to American states for resale to slave owners. It is equally easy to see that the only statistic which matters is the lifetime financial expectations of African-Americans versus those of sub-Saharan Africans.

Lifetime financial expectations can be estimated based on two variables: per capita income and years of life expectancy. A contemporary African-American must accept the premise that without slavery in the U.S., his lifetime financial expectations would be those of an average contemporary sub-Saharan African, which can be calculated according to the following formula: Number of years of life expectancy multiplied by average annual per capita income.

Granted, these numbers are hard to acquire with a high degree of accuracy, but we can make approximate estimates based on surveys and studies which have been performed in recent years. For example, with respect to life expectancy, a 2000 report from the World Health Organization provides a worldwide summary, including this:

All of the bottom 10 countries were in sub-Saharan Africa, where the HIV-AIDS epidemic is rampant. In ascending order... those countries were Sierra Leona, 25.9 years of healthy life for babies born in 1999; Niger, 29.1; Malawi, 29.4; Zambia, 30.3; Botswana, 32.3; Uganda, 32.7; Rwanda, 32.8; Zimbabwe, 32.9; Mali, 33.1; and Ethiopia, 33.5.

The overall life expectancy in sub-Saharan Africa has dropped precipitously over the past 10 years, mostly because of the AIDS epidemic, the WHO says. Life expectancy dropped for female babies from 51.1 years to 46.3 years. For males, the level dropped from 47.3 years to 44.8 years.

To be conservative, we should round the figure upward; call it 50 years, on average. And what of per capita income? The figures that are available to us come from sources like the World Bank. A written summary of the year 2003 states:

In marked contrast to East and South Asia, poverty actually rose in Sub-Saharan Africa. Since 1981, a 13-percent contraction in GDP per capita in Sub-Saharan Africa resulted in a near-doubling of the number of people living on less than $1 a day, from 164 million to 314 million, a rise from 42 to 47 percent of the region's population.

Close to half of sub-Saharan Africans make less than $365 per year. For them, lifetime financial expectations are less than $18,250. Obviously, the 53 percent who make more than that may make considerably more than that, and fortunately the World Bank does break out figures for individual countries. Here's a link to a spreadsheet that captures the World Bank figures for Sub-Saharan African nations (2003) and also captures population data from another source. The result is a computation of per capita income for all of Sub-Saharan Africa: $509.

This gives us an easy way for anyone to guesstimate his lifetime financial expectations if he happened to live in Sub-Saharan Africa. We can call it the "50-500 Formula": (50 years ) x ($500) = $25,000.

If this number turns out to be greater than the lifetime financial expectations of an average African-American, the descendants of American slaves can sue for the difference.

What do we know about per-capita income for African Americans? Here's an indication, drawn from a Tennessee source that cites national census data:

African-Americans moved closer to per capita income parity between 2000 and 2002. In the former year, African-American real (inflation-adjusted) per capita income was $15,451. Although that number decreased $10 over the following two years to $15,441, overall per capita income fell even more, declining $541. As a result, African-American per capita income increased from 66.2 percent of per capita income for the general population in 2000 to 67.7 percent in 2002.

Oops. It begins to look as if any African-American who lives at least two years is going to enjoy a higher lifetime income than a Sub-Saharan African. What can we determine about life expectancy?

Racial disparities in life expectancy have declined since 1960. However, the pace of the decline is slower than what occurred in earlier years. For both blacks and whites, improvements in the life expectancy are relatively very small. From 1960 to 1990 the life expectancy for whites increased from 70.6 to 76.1 years, and for blacks the life expectancy increased from 63.2 to 69.1 years.

Oops again. Using round numbers, we can easily calculate an average lifetime financial expectation for African-Americans: (70 years) x ($15,000) = $1,050,000. Approximately $1 million.

Finally, we can compute our average per capita reparations owed to African-Americans: $25,000 minus $1,000,000 = ($975,000). Of course, the brackets and red type indicate that it's a negative number, meaning no reparations owed. End of legal case. Period.[...much]

 

[Markainion]

The "older generation"? Who the hell is that? I'm 57, so I suppose in your view I qualify. I've never owned a slave, I've never mistreated a black person, matter of fact I was probably on the cutting edge of equal opportunity since I grew up as an Army brat and then entered the service myself. Furthermore sonny, I can't think of anyone of us "oldsters" who owned slaves, imported slaves, or sold or purchased a slave. So careful to whom you assign the task of paying for your misplaced, and unsupportable sympathies.

We've been throwing money at poor black people and organizations for decades and where has it gotten us? Seems to me that the "reparations" some are squawking about have been paid over and over again. It's time to stop feeling guilty for what went on two hundred years ago. I WASN'T RESPONSIBLE for slavery. If reparations advocates want justice, let them exhume the bodies of known slave traders and owners and check the coffins for any loose change - that's a reparation they'd be welcome to as far as I'm concerned. Today, the only thing we "owe" black people is a level playing field.

We trampled over native Americans in our zeal to tame the nation. The fact that they were here first was an inconvenient detail which our didn't seem to bother the consciences of our forefathers. We owe American Indians a debt not only from an ethical view but also legally since there are treaties involved. But even here, the ethics of the situation are diminishing with time and the only legitimate claim native Americans have to any kind of reparation is the result of treaty obligations.

I'm not sure why you even mention Hispanics or Asians. Not a single one of these people came here involuntarily. Were some the victims of discrimination? You betcha. So what? Yes, that's unfortunate, but there is no requirement within our laws to pay people because others didn't like them very much.

So be a little more careful to whom you assign responsibility for paying a debt which we never owed to begin with. Either we all owe it, or none of us currently living owes anything. And if you refer to me as the "older generation" again, I'll whack your ass with my walker.

First of all you obviously didn’t read OCA post, it is the 3rd post in this string. All I posted was the beginning of it. I should have posted the whole thing, that my fault, I need to remember this. His entire post below

You guys make the mistake of mixing reparations(which I vehemently disagree with any payments in that area) with simply acknowledging that yeah America has fucked over many minorities in its tarnished history in this area. Think i'm wrong? Lets get away from Blacks and ask Indians, what will they say?

I think its funny that we think the emotional debt has been paid, this country is still to this day dealing with repercussions from its violent racist past. Heck we try to cover it up and say we are "tolerant" now, bullshit. Look around, listen to everyday conversations, we are a racist country and that goes for both sides of the coin, White and Black.

Hell all the policies that conservatives argue against now we're instituted by the White man, affirmative action, quotas, federal housing etc. etc. etc., why did we institute this crap in the first place?

Personally I agree with you Merline, more than OCA, but I was trying to say that we should only have to pay for a few more decades emotion debt to African Americans, and Native Americans, and that we don’t owe Asian or Hispanic Americans nothing.

As for you complaining about this at 57, you’re my parent’s generation. I have to except this bullshit double standard. Then your generation defiantly should. As for what I meant by saying we need to spare the children born today, I was being generous. My generation being born a decade after the Civil Rights Movement, should be spared this, simply because of the fact we weren’t even around during the supposed white racist era.

But I would gladly put aside any complaints on this, if this country would simple pick a decade, I don’t care 80’s, 90’s or 00’s, and make it official, and anytime any person of any race, gender, or sexuality, who is racist or sexiest to a person born after this time. Their group will take the full blame for being the proprietors of the committed the ignorant act. No more they started it first attitude, or justified reverse discrimination. We must save future generation this garbage, by holding all American accountable in this effort to ending it. .

I got a little going on this, just a thought.

 

[Merlin1047]

Lots of links and horrible pics of abused slaves at site:

It is easy to see that the only valid comparisons we can make in this regard are between contemporary African-Americans and contemporary sub-Saharan Africans. The latter are the control population -- that population which was NOT captured, chained, sold to slave traders, and carried to American states for resale to slave owners. It is equally easy to see that the only statistic which matters is the lifetime financial expectations of African-Americans versus those of sub-Saharan Africans.

Bingo! But those pursuing reparations don't want to acknowledge this little fact. Look at most any society on the African continent and you find rampant tribal warfare, corrupt and declining societies and governments, starvation, illiteracy, diseases on epidemic proportions. Where nations once prospered under governments run by European immigrants, there is now a rapid retreat back to the 1800's.

At the risk of sounding racist, I firmly believe that had Africans been left to their own devices, they would still be hunting each other both for use as slaves and as a food source. I know that sounds harsh. I'm more than willing to consider anyone's factual evidence that it's wrong.

 

[Annie]

Bingo! But those pursuing reparations don't want to acknowledge this little fact. Look at most any society on the African continent and you find rampant tribal warfare, corrupt and declining societies and governments, starvation, illiteracy, diseases on epidemic proportions. Where nations once prospered under governments run by European immigrants, there is now a rapid retreat back to the 1800's.

At the risk of sounding racist, I firmly believe that had Africans been left to their own devices, they would still be hunting each other both for use as slaves and as a food source. I know that sounds harsh. I'm more than willing to consider anyone's factual evidence that it's wrong.

Perhaps Merlin, though I'm not so convinced that without European encroachments, the African tribal system would not have stood. We'll never know.

 

[Merlin1047]

Personally I agree with you Merline, more than OCA, but I was trying to say that we should only have to pay for a few more decades emotion debt to African Americans, and Native Americans, and that we don’t owe Asian or Hispanic Americans nothing.

Frankly I have no idea what an "emotion debt" would be. Will I be fined every time I hurt someone's delicate little feelings? The basis for reparations stated by most of those who pursue it has to do with slavery, not with racial discrimination. No one living today is entitled to collect anything on the basis of slavery, which ended in 1865 - 140 years ago.

The federal government has made a concerted effort to end discrimination and to assure that the vestiges of racial discrimination are blunted, if not erased. There have been literally hundreds of assistance programs aimed at enabling black people to compete in society.

And here's another point you're missing. Try adopting a more skeptical view of the statements of some like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. These people care nothing for justice, they care for self-aggrandizement. In my view, they care very little for the people they allege to represent. Jackson and Sharpton use black people much the same as the Democratic party - simply as a means to their own selfish ends. The call for reparations is simply a change in tactics. The NAACP, Jackson, Sharpton etc have for decades sucked money out of politicians who can't say no. Politicians who seek to purchase black votes by squandering your tax dollars on phoney programs and false guilt. Now there is an ever increasing percentage of Americans, including black Americans, who see these programs for what they really are and they're saying "enough, already". So reparations are simply a smoke screen which seeks to disguise the efforts of some to continue the discredited handout programs of the past thirty five years.

And if I follow your logic, I should be paying reparations to some slacker simply because I am guilty of breathing the air in this country during a time when it was still popular to discriminate because of race. Sorry - I ain't buying that one either.

 

[Annie]

can't rep ya, but agree with this wholeheartedly:

Try adopting a more skeptical view of the statements of some like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. These people care nothing for justice, they care for self-aggrandizement. In my view, they care very little for the people they allege to represent. Jackson and Sharpton use black people much the same as the Democratic party - simply as a means to their own selfish ends. The call for reparations is simply a change in tactics. The NAACP, Jackson, Sharpton etc have for decades sucked money out of politicians who can't say no. Politicians who seek to purchase black votes by squandering your tax dollars on phoney programs and false guilt. Now there is an ever increasing percentage of Americans, including black Americans, who see these programs for what they really are and they're saying "enough, already". So reparations are simply a smoke screen which seeks to disguise the efforts of some to continue the discredited handout programs of the past thirty five years.

 

[KarlMarx]

And if I follow your logic, I should be paying reparations to some slacker simply because I am guilty of breathing the air in this country during a time when it was still popular to discriminate because of race. Sorry - I ain't buying that one either.

Really... enough of the whitey owes the brothers in the 'hood crap.

Reparations are a race based tax. I thought that would be illegal per the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race.

The bloodiest war in American History was the Civil War, hundreds of thousands of people (mostly white) died ending the institution of slavery in this country. To top that off, over 5 trillion dollars has been spent on the "war on poverty" in order to eliminate poverty, of which blacks are amongst the largest sufferers. Again, much of this money came from whites.

Not to mention how many people, black and white, suffered or died for the cause of civil rights.

And to what purpose? So that generations of blacks can be raised up in dependency on the government? Isn't that a form of slavery? So that blacks can continue to have babies out of wedlock? The last count, over 75% of black children are in this condition.

We've had an influx of urban blacks into this area over the past 10-15 years and I can tell you, it hasn't had a good effect on my community. For one thing, the number of drug related crimes has gone up. And it's not like these people are doing anything constructive.... they walk around with their pants down to their knees in their 'hood attire, looking like a bunch of bums! And look at the clowns on MTV and VH1... they can't finish a sentence without saying "Yo" and WTF are they saying? Is that English? Many of the young guys have had children from several women (and not married to a single one), black and white.... so this is what reparations are supposed to fix? No, it's just another excuse to be lazy, shiftless, immoral, drunk, stoned..... it's not like these people are going to take that money and put it in the bank, invest it, start a business or go to school.... they'll use it to buy their next hit, load up on some tacky looking ghetto garb, maybe a ghetto blaster, then bang up their next 'ho, have a baby with her then take off....

THIS is what Martin Luther King and hundreds of thousands of people died for? Hey buddy, this is America, learn the language.... if you want to make something of yourself ditch the ghetto talk, and dress and act like a human being. If you wonder why a lot of people don't like blacks look at the way you act and talk... you don't give them much reason to want to know you, trust you or associate with you. You look and act like a bunch of big, black ugly baboons... straighten up and fly right!

I've know people who came from Vietnam as refugees, suffered under the Communists. They work at jobs, some own businesses, none have babies out of wedlock. And they did it all in the space of less than 15 years. So where's the racial discrimination here? Sure, they speak with an accent, but their kids don't! Maybe the ghetto blacks can learn a few tricks from this bunch... my guess is that they can learn a lot of tricks.....

 

[Johnney]

definatley one of the biggest loads of shit ive heard of in a while. didnt japan or china kind of start the reparations movement though. if i remember correctly one of them gave up a buttload of money to their females because they were forced into sex slavery. shitty thing to do, but there were actually victims still alive on that one. not 200 years in the past.

then they would have to ask how far back (or forward maybe?) do you reparate? i mean, what about the ones that came here on their own accord, say, 50 years ago?
be able to prove your liniage(sp?), and be able to prove who sold your ancestor into slavery....hey it takes two people to buy and sell a slave. might as well make the root of the problem pay as well.

 

[KarlMarx]

definatley one of the biggest loads of shit ive heard of in a while. didnt japan or china kind of start the reparations movement though. if i remember correctly one of them gave up a buttload of money to their females because they were forced into sex slavery. shitty thing to do, but there were actually victims still alive on that one. not 200 years in the past.

then they would have to ask how far back (or forward maybe?) do you reparate? i mean, what about the ones that came here on their own accord, say, 50 years ago?
be able to prove your liniage(sp?), and be able to prove who sold your ancestor into slavery....hey it takes two people to buy and sell a slave. might as well make the root of the problem pay as well.

Glad you mentioned reparations as the result of wars.....

Actually, Germany was forced to pay reparations as a result of the Treaty of Versailles that ended World War I in 1918! Long before Japan and China did. And the reparations that Germany was forced to pay helped to devalue their currency to the point that a wheelbarrowload of Reichsmarks was needed to pay for a loaf of bread. One of the reasons given for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis is reparations.....

No one who is for reparations will address the economic effects of such a policy. Most likely, the effect on our economy would be devestating. Since there would be a large injection of money into the economy (either through direct payouts or through increased spending through government spending), there would be a large increase in inflation (as happened in Germany during the 1920s and 1930s). This would also have the effect of helping to chase companies abroad to escape the effects of reparations (don't think that they wouldn't be going after corporations as well!). Not to mention, that other groups would want to get on board with this.... Native American Indians, homosexuals, people of various ethnic minorities that were discriminated against in the past..... I can see the lawyers going to town with this one.... imagine the fees they would be collecting!

And as I said before, reparations would amount to nothing less than a tax based on race ---- which is prohibited by the Civil Rights act of 1964. In order to make such a policy legal, Congress would have to re-write the law.... to make certain groups (e.g. whites) exempt (as if that doesn't happen already except in a non-official form).

BTW... I noticed that you weren't certain of the spelling in your last post. Have you tried the new Google Toolbar? It has a built in spell check so you can post with confidence!

 

[Trigg]

This would also have the effect of helping to chase companies abroad to escape the effects of reparations (don't think that they wouldn't be going after corporations as well!). Not to mention, that other groups would want to get on board with this.... Native American Indians, homosexuals, people of various ethnic minorities that were discriminated against in the past..... I can see the lawyers going to town with this one.... imagine the fees they would be collecting!

And as I said before, reparations would amount to nothing less than a tax based on race ---- which is prohibited by the Civil Rights act of 1964. In order to make such a policy legal, Congress would have to re-write the law.... to make certain groups (e.g. whites) exempt (as if that doesn't happen already except in a non-official form).

I to see this creating more problems than it solves.

Companies are leaving the US right now so it's no jump to assume that they'd be leaving in droves if they were forced to pay reparations.

People would be feverishly searching their ancestry to see if they have an Indian or black in the family in order to cash in.

If people think race relations are bad now, just start reparations.

Slave owners were a very small minority, most whites never had slaves. Also a small minority of slave owners were black, with a few having 150 or more slaves, so they weren't just buying family members.

Finally where to people think this money is going to come from??? Taxes STUPID, which everyone pays, so blacks would be paying themselves.

It's a BAD idea.

 

[Johnney]

BTW... I noticed that you weren't certain of the spelling in your last post. Have you tried the new Google Toolbar? It has a built in spell check so you can post with confidence!

actually i use firefox's dictionary thingy. it was on there wheni checked it again, so obviously i didnt check down far enough on the page when i checked it.

 

[Bonnie]

At some point, I would suggest at least 20 years ago, someone must say, "Enough." Enough apologies, enough excuses. Everyone, on your mark, get set, go....

Most definately, and that would include the debauchery proposed for the Ground Zero memorial.
<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSXXXXXX42US' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_204v.gif' alt='Pulling My Hair Out' border=0></a>

 

[GotZoom]

I will only consider reparations when they decide to force the people who SOLD the slaves to pay it.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

One of the reasons given for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis is reparations.....

And also one of the reasons that could help the rise of a New World Order.

Forget the greedy Jacksons, the greedy welfare losers, the greedy attorneys, the greedy politicians, etc. Reparations would definitely harm America...and anything that harms America is something that the New World Order desires. The only ones who even consider this issue worth discussing are those already listed in this paragraph...need more be said?