The science against climate change

[westwall]

Are you denying that North America was covered with an ice sheet a few thousand years ago?

We're pointing out how cowardly and stupid you look for trotting out that pathetic evasion every time you get spanked by reality. It's an amazingly stupid basic logic failure on your part. The present is not required to act like the past, especially when conditions in the present are wildly different from conditions in the past.

In the manner of patiently explaining things to a slow child, this has been explained to you, over and over. Since you refuse to grasp the obvious, it means you're either an imbecile or a cult liar. Either way, that means the correct response to your 'effed-up logic is to point and laugh, which would be why the entire planet is doing so.

And that statement shows just how scientifically crippled you are. The AGW cultists have made a extraordinary claim that man is the root cause of all the weather happening today. We have stated that it is all natural cycles and variability. We have millions of years of history on our side. You don't.

It is up to you to prove your statement. So far, you have failed, and failed so miserably that your side has resorted to extreme unethical behavior and outright fraud to perpetuate your claims.

Occams Razor is on OUR side.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Are you denying that North America was covered with an ice sheet a few thousand years ago?

We're pointing out how cowardly and stupid you look for trotting out that pathetic evasion every time you get spanked by reality. It's an amazingly stupid basic logic failure on your part. The present is not required to act like the past, especially when conditions in the present are wildly different from conditions in the past.

In the manner of patiently explaining things to a slow child, this has been explained to you, over and over. Since you refuse to grasp the obvious, it means you're either an imbecile or a cult liar. Either way, that means the correct response to your 'effed-up logic is to point and laugh, which would be why the entire planet is doing so.

Personal insults take the place of scientific experiments.

What's so different now than a short 14,000 years ago? That's a lot of ice that had to melt over that time to deglaciate the US and Canada, no?

 

[mamooth]

Personal insults take the place of scientific experiments.

I suggest you stop relying so much on personal insults.

What's so different now than a short 14,000 years ago?

The orbit of the earth.

Come on, these are the basic basics. Make some effort to learn, will ya?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Personal insults take the place of scientific experiments.

I suggest you stop relying so much on personal insults.

What's so different now than a short 14,000 years ago?

The orbit of the earth.

Come on, these are the basic basics. Make some effort to learn, will ya?

Did someone hack your account?

I don't understand your "earth orbit" comment

Are you saying that we changed orbits recently

Can you expand on that startling remark

 

[mamooth]

We have stated that it is all natural cycles and variability. We have millions of years of history on our side. You don't.

Sure, you've stated it, and then failed to ever demonstrate any evidence for it. We have millions of years on our side, showing no significant natural cycles are operating now. Millions of years of history say the AGW side is correct.

I'll ask again, what specific natural cycles are forcing the climate now, and what evidence do you have to back that up? You can't just vaguely wave your hands, invoke the magic natural cycles fairy, and declare that settles it.

It is up to you to prove your statement.

The whole world agrees it's been proven, due to the evidence proving it. A handful of senseless protests from right-wing cultists about how it offends their cult dogma doesn't change that.

So far, you have failed, and failed so miserably that your side has resorted to extreme unethical behavior and outright fraud to perpetuate your claims.

Until you can admit to the rank fraud that your denialist buddies were caught trying to perpetrate there, your side will remain permanently banished to the kiddie table. No one is going to waste time talking to unrepenetant liars.

Occams Razor is on OUR side.

No. Your theory fails hard in accounting for the observed data. The AGW theory does account for all observed data, and is the simplest theory that does, therefore Occams supports it.

 

[mamooth]

Are you saying that we changed orbits recently

Look up Milankovitch cycles.

Over the span of thousands of years, Earth wobbles like a spinning top (precession). And the shape of the orbit changes, due to influences from Jupiter and Saturn (eccentricity). And the amount of axial tilt changes (obliquity). This changes the amount of sunlight hitting the earth, and whether it hits land or sea, being that most of the land is in the northern hemisphere. And that brings about or ends ice ages.

From such orbital factors, we're supposed to be in a cooling trend for the next 25,000 years or so. So that can't be the "natural cause" causing warming.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Are you saying that we changed orbits recently

Look up Milankovitch cycles.

Over the span of thousands of years, Earth wobbles like a spinning top (precession). And the shape of the orbit changes, due to influences from Jupiter and Saturn (eccentricity). And the amount of axial tilt changes (obliquity). This changes the amount of sunlight hitting the earth, and whether it hits land or sea, being that most of the land is in the northern hemisphere. And that brings about or ends ice ages.

From such orbital factors, we're supposed to be in a cooling trend for the next 25,000 years or so. So that can't be the "natural cause" causing warming.

When did the warming trend that caused north America and Canada to deglaciate end?

 

[Saigon]

If you were living in NY 14,000 years ago, you'd be decrying the retreat of the glaciers due to campfires

So all this ice melted, then it stopped, but because we're burning "Fossil fuels" it's melting again?

If you had been following earlier threads, you would know that is not what anyone has been saying.

Everyone on these thread knows there have been ice ages and melting cycles before - though why each melting period would necessarily be caused by the same factors I have no idea.

Why don't you tell us why YOU think glaciers are melting - then and now - and go from there.

 

[flacaltenn]

Mamooth/Saigon:

Listen up.. Last time I'm gonna answer you guys about "natural cause for the current warming".. I posted the answer before --- you BOTH claim you've never seen a SHRED of evidence or any explanation other than CO2..

Now remember --- NOT sunspots.. Total Solar Irradiance --- THat's the thermostat on the total sun's radiation hitting the earth.. About 1.2W/m2 increase in 300 years AND it's held steadily on BROIL for awhile now...

Remember ---- NEITHER of you can now claim you haven't seen a single alternate NATURAL reason for warming the planet.. That 1.2W/m2 increase in TSI ALONE --- is about 1/2 of the forcing function we're looking for to explain the temp. rise.. And it TAKES a couple decades after you turn up the stove to boil water or melt ice --- doesn't it?

Got it? Good.. I'm done with this for awhile..

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

I've seen a few references to 'natural warming', but I've never really understood what people mean by that.

Can you post a link or something that expands the theory a bit?


And PLEASE do not post chart/graphs without links!

 

[flacaltenn]

I've done more than enough work for you.. Do some yourself. I doubt you even understand what you were just presented with... Do you understand the significance of 1.2W/m2 increase in TSI?

 

[Saigon]

I've done more than enough work for you.. Do some yourself. I doubt you even understand what you were just presented with... Do you understand the significance of 1.2W/m2 increase in TSI?

Let me get his straight - you are refusing to provide links or sources for your material?

 

[flacaltenn]

I've done more than enough work for you.. Do some yourself. I doubt you even understand what you were just presented with... Do you understand the significance of 1.2W/m2 increase in TSI?

Let me get his straight - you are refusing to provide links or sources for your material?

Saigon -- I've posted all that MANY TIMES before in response to your inquiries.. Problem is you IGNORED it... Now that you're interested ---- you want me to make up for your lack of interest?

I'll pull the post and delete it before I do ANYTHING more for you.
It's not that important to me...

Hell -0-- you didn't even ANSWER MY LAST QUESTION DIDYA?
\

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

OK, so you won't provide sources or links for your material.

Great posting - very persuasive.

 

[flacaltenn]

Sorry I was snippy.. Hard day --- and you're not playing fair with ignoring questions...

Start here...

TSI Data

 

[Saigon]

No problem, Flac!

I can't really answer questions until I've seen the material. I'll read it now.

I have understood that solar variations functioned on an eleven year cycle, which would do little to explain current changes in the climate or temperature.

 

[Saigon]

Obviously TSI and sun spot activity can and do influence climate, so in that sense I think it is an area worth considering, but when we look at charts like this:

Solar variation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see a very close link with sunpot activity, at least, and climate change as being likely.

I do think the SORCE project and studies are valid and important, and do contribute to our understanding of climate as a whole.

However, NASA themselves are very clear on their website that:

Earth is currently in a period of warming. Over the last century, Earth's average temperature rose about 1.1°F (0.6°C). In the last two decades, the rate of our world's warming accelerated and scientists predict that the globe will continue to warm over the course of the 21st century. Is this warming trend a reason for concern? After all, our world has witnessed extreme warm periods before, such as during the time of the dinosaurs. Earth has also seen numerous ice ages on roughly 11,000-year cycles for at least the last million years. So, change is perhaps the only constant in Earth's 4.5-billion-year history.

Scientists note that there are two new and different twists to today's changing climate: (1) The globe is warming at a faster rate than it ever has before; and (2) Humans are the main reason Earth is warming. Since the industrial revolution, which began in the mid-1800s, humans have attained the magnitude of a geological force in terms of our ability change Earth's environment and impact its climate system.

How is the global earth system changing? - NASA Science

This page links from NASA's page on SORCE.

 

[Old Rocks]

http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/7/3/034020/pdf/1748-9326_7_3_034020.pdf

5. Conclusions
We have shown that there is an evident causal decoupling between total solar irradiance and global temperature in recent periods. Our work permits us to fix the 1960s as the time of the loss of importance of solar influence on temperature. At the same time greenhouse gases total radiative forcing has shown a strong Granger causal link with temperature since the 1940s up to the present day.

Our results obviously suggest the need for further research to investigate in greater depth the causes of this Sun-temperature decoupling, but, at the same time, they appear as a clear contribution to the debate on the causes of recent global warming.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

If you were living in NY 14,000 years ago, you'd be decrying the retreat of the glaciers due to campfires

So all this ice melted, then it stopped, but because we're burning "Fossil fuels" it's melting again?

If you had been following earlier threads, you would know that is not what anyone has been saying.

Everyone on these thread knows there have been ice ages and melting cycles before - though why each melting period would necessarily be caused by the same factors I have no idea.

Why don't you tell us why YOU think glaciers are melting - then and now - and go from there.

The glaciers have been melting for the past 14,000 years as part of an overall long term warming trend.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

LOL @ Warmers ignoring the Big Yellow Thing in the Sky