The rights of many vs the rights of one, what to do?

[syrenn]

The fact that Norway's maximum penalty for any crime is 21 years in prison is facing rising criticism in the wake of the twin attacks that killed 93 people, with many deeming the penalty too lax.

Ever since Norwegian media named 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik as the prime suspect, calls have been growing for the maximum penalty under the Norwegian penal code to be extended.

If found guilty, Behring Breivik's 21 years in prison would equal a penalty of 82 days per killing.
Norwegians protest shooter's lax penalty - World - NZ Herald News

The man who bombed Norway's capital and gunned down Labour Party youths on an island, killing at least 93, told police he intended to target former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland, Oslo newspaper Aftenposten said.

Norway shooting: killer 'confirms Gro Harlem Brundtland was main target' - Telegraph

Then they should try him for each murder..... 93 murders x 21 years.... that should put him away for a nice long time.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Torture, both physical or psychological, is a very effective way of getting people to say whatever it is they think you want them to say.

Ask just about most husbands!

Or...if you happen to be interogating YOUR husband, just tell him what you want him to say.

He'll agree to pretty much anything you say if it will get you to shut up and let him watch the game.

You know how many times I've given in just so the bitch would STFU?

Ok, I'm kidding... sorta.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's just been reported that the Oslo terrorist is boasting about two other "cells" in his terrorist group. That poses a serious threat to life and liberty for many people.

Now we come full circle in the torture debate.

Read him his rights and risk the deaths of dozens more children or pull his fingernails to get the info and save untold deaths?

The guy is delusional, and smart. Claiming there are others keeps him relevant.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's just been reported that the Oslo terrorist is boasting about two other "cells" in his terrorist group. That poses a serious threat to life and liberty for many people.

Now we come full circle in the torture debate.

Read him his rights and risk the deaths of dozens more children or pull his fingernails to get the info and save untold deaths?

Do you believe Jack Bauer tactics work? Have you ever interrogated a prisoner? Bauer tactics and Good Cop, Bad Cop tactics don't work. Especially with a narcissist/sociopath (new term, Character Disordered) person the best course is to develop a relationship, echo his words and use active listening skills. Watch the eyes for deception and keep interviews short and isolation periods long.

The interrogator when possible should look like the perp, appear to be from the same socio-economic class and mirror his/her language skills, even using the same words and phrases. The idea is to connect, being adversarial is the stuff of fiction.

If torture did not work no one would use it. The simple truth is people have been using it for thousands of years, and it always gets people talking. I do not understand why some people insist on clinging to delusions.

As for the good cop bad cop, that also works. Just go down to the police station and ask.

They will not get any information about other cells from this guy because the other cells do not exist. Anyone that has read what he wrote knows that, he was alone the whole time. He bragged about that part.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't see how anyone can justify torture - or the death penalty - and claim to be in favor of a "smaller" government.

If the government can't do anything right, why would you trust them with these decisions? Why would you support the government having the power to kill or torture?

I think torture is justified, as long as it is not the government doing it. If a family member had gotten hold of this guy and tortured him for a few weeks it would not bother me in the least. Now that he is actually in custody, the government cannot violate his rights.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The burden is on proponents of torture to show that it works. You know all those procedural rights people have? They aren't given as a reward for good citizenship. They're as much provided to force the police to do good police work as they are to protect citizens.

Evidence that is the product of torture is tainted. It is unreliable. Torture most people enough and they, too, will admit to having done the Norwegian bombings.

It does work, you admitted it yourself.

The burden on proponents of torture is to show why they trust the government with the power to torture. Anyone that does that is a complete fool.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This is always, in my opinion, a very stupid question.

If you wish to torture someone, go right ahead and do it. And then throw yourself on the mercy of the court. If your actions are justifiable then you will probably become a hero. If not you will serve your time in prison.

There is no reason to legalize torture.

That seems like a reasonable response. What would you do or "ignore" if lives could be saved in this case?

There will never be one instance in humankind history where we know torture and torture alone will lead to saving lives.

Really? Never, in all of history? Past, present, and future? Would you care to bet on that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I wonder if they have the "death penalty" in Norway.

Well, if they don't now, I suspect they will soon.

I suspect you are wrong.

Not having any principles yourself you have no idea how they work in a person. Norway has principles, and one of them is that the state killing people is wrong. Personally, I agree with them, and there is nothing anyone could do to make me toss my principle that the state should not have the power to take a person's life.

 

[Ernie S.]

It's just been reported that the Oslo terrorist is boasting about two other "cells" in his terrorist group. That poses a serious threat to life and liberty for many people.

Now we come full circle in the torture debate.

Read him his rights and risk the deaths of dozens more children or pull his fingernails to get the info and save untold deaths?

If we were worried about untol death on women and children we would have tortured Bush a long time ago.

Bush, even if you insist on blaming him for casualties of war, has nothing on Margaret Sanger and her baby killing followers.

 

[Wry Catcher]

It's just been reported that the Oslo terrorist is boasting about two other "cells" in his terrorist group. That poses a serious threat to life and liberty for many people.

Now we come full circle in the torture debate.

Read him his rights and risk the deaths of dozens more children or pull his fingernails to get the info and save untold deaths?

Do you believe Jack Bauer tactics work? Have you ever interrogated a prisoner? Bauer tactics and Good Cop, Bad Cop tactics don't work. Especially with a narcissist/sociopath (new term, Character Disordered) person the best course is to develop a relationship, echo his words and use active listening skills. Watch the eyes for deception and keep interviews short and isolation periods long.

The interrogator when possible should look like the perp, appear to be from the same socio-economic class and mirror his/her language skills, even using the same words and phrases. The idea is to connect, being adversarial is the stuff of fiction.

If torture did not work no one would use it. The simple truth is people have been using it for thousands of years, and it always gets people talking. I do not understand why some people insist on clinging to delusions.

As for the good cop bad cop, that also works. Just go down to the police station and ask.

They will not get any information about other cells from this guy because the other cells do not exist. Anyone that has read what he wrote knows that, he was alone the whole time. He bragged about that part.

I spent a little over 32 years as a LEO, a deputy, supervisor and manager. I interrogated suspects arrested for crimes and officers accused of wrong-doing. Hundreds and hundreds of interviews over many years and can tell you without equivocation establishing rapport and making a connection with the offender elicits a good deal more information than being a hard ass.

Of course I never used torture and the only reason good cop back cop works is because of the good cop - adding the bad cop makes gathering information slow and unreliable.

I have no empathy for mass killers, bullies, wife beaters or chilld abusers but I respect the system. It's up to the judge to pronounce punishment within the confines of the law. Those who choose vigilante justice are criminals too.

 

[Steelplate]

That's all cozy and warm. I say this animal deserves to be treated like an animal if it might save other lives. And don't give me that it won't work bs. He's not some pain defying James Bond trained in the art of defying torture.

So you've never interrogated a prisoner and all you base your opinion on are movies and TV shows. Is that correct?
Your animal analogy is also wrong. Feed and water, brush, walk and play with a dog and he'll do whatever you want, beat him and he'll do one of two things. Cower and piss himself or tear your throat out; neither is a postive result.

Stop with the tabloid accusations. Torture has been continually used throughout human history. Practices that don't produce results don't last for centuries.

Besides this topic isn't about weather it works its about what one man's rights are when lives are in the balance.

Yeah.... by Ruthless empires... let's see... Vlad the Impaler, Medieval Castles, Inquisition, Crusades.... Modern era? Nazis, Koreans, Vietnamese... Funny... most of them in the modern era... were the BAD GUYS.

Amazing that no one brings up the idea that perhaps the information that the guy gives out after pulling his fingernails out... might be ANYONE... wrong information... purposely on the part of the guilty... Just random names to make the pain stop on the innocent.

BTW... how Christian of you righties to propose torture. Jesus would be so proud. You sure you guys aren't closet Muslims? That seems to be more their style... at least the way you guys tend to describe them.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question.... You are with a group of people hiding from imminent death from an enemy. In your group, there's a woman with a baby.... the baby starts crying and will give you away any second. Do you kill the baby to save the group?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

So you've never interrogated a prisoner and all you base your opinion on are movies and TV shows. Is that correct?
Your animal analogy is also wrong. Feed and water, brush, walk and play with a dog and he'll do whatever you want, beat him and he'll do one of two things. Cower and piss himself or tear your throat out; neither is a postive result.

Stop with the tabloid accusations. Torture has been continually used throughout human history. Practices that don't produce results don't last for centuries.

Besides this topic isn't about weather it works its about what one man's rights are when lives are in the balance.

Yeah.... by Ruthless empires... let's see... Vlad the Impaler, Medieval Castles, Inquisition, Crusades.... Modern era? Nazis, Koreans, Vietnamese... Funny... most of them in the modern era... were the BAD GUYS.

Amazing that no one brings up the idea that perhaps the information that the guy gives out after pulling his fingernails out... might be ANYONE... wrong information... purposely on the part of the guilty... Just random names to make the pain stop on the innocent.

BTW... how Christian of you righties to propose torture. Jesus would be so proud. You sure you guys aren't closet Muslims? That seems to be more their style... at least the way you guyso describe them.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question.... You are with a group of people hiding from imminent death from an enemy. In your group, there's a woman with a baby.... the baby starts crying and willond. Do you kill the baby to save the group?

First of all Jesus has nothing to do with this argument. To assume every republican is a Christian would be as dumb as me assuming every leftie was an athiest.

Secondly your comparing killing an innocent child to causing pain to a killer? Come on get real. I will tell you this, if someone was holding my family with the threat of death I would kill the perps to save my family. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a damn liar or a cowardly pos.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do you believe Jack Bauer tactics work? Have you ever interrogated a prisoner? Bauer tactics and Good Cop, Bad Cop tactics don't work. Especially with a narcissist/sociopath (new term, Character Disordered) person the best course is to develop a relationship, echo his words and use active listening skills. Watch the eyes for deception and keep interviews short and isolation periods long.

The interrogator when possible should look like the perp, appear to be from the same socio-economic class and mirror his/her language skills, even using the same words and phrases. The idea is to connect, being adversarial is the stuff of fiction.

If torture did not work no one would use it. The simple truth is people have been using it for thousands of years, and it always gets people talking. I do not understand why some people insist on clinging to delusions.

As for the good cop bad cop, that also works. Just go down to the police station and ask.

They will not get any information about other cells from this guy because the other cells do not exist. Anyone that has read what he wrote knows that, he was alone the whole time. He bragged about that part.

I spent a little over 32 years as a LEO, a deputy, supervisor and manager. I interrogated suspects arrested for crimes and officers accused of wrong-doing. Hundreds and hundreds of interviews over many years and can tell you without equivocation establishing rapport and making a connection with the offender elicits a good deal more information than being a hard ass.

Of course I never used torture and the only reason good cop back cop works is because of the good cop - adding the bad cop makes gathering information slow and unreliable.

I have no empathy for mass killers, bullies, wife beaters or chilld abusers but I respect the system. It's up to the judge to pronounce punishment within the confines of the law. Those who choose vigilante justice are criminals too.

They might me lawbreakers, but that does not make them criminals.

 

[Steelplate]

Stop with the tabloid accusations. Torture has been continually used throughout human history. Practices that don't produce results don't last for centuries.

Besides this topic isn't about weather it works its about what one man's rights are when lives are in the balance.

Yeah.... by Ruthless empires... let's see... Vlad the Impaler, Medieval Castles, Inquisition, Crusades.... Modern era? Nazis, Koreans, Vietnamese... Funny... most of them in the modern era... were the BAD GUYS.

Amazing that no one brings up the idea that perhaps the information that the guy gives out after pulling his fingernails out... might be ANYONE... wrong information... purposely on the part of the guilty... Just random names to make the pain stop on the innocent.

BTW... how Christian of you righties to propose torture. Jesus would be so proud. You sure you guys aren't closet Muslims? That seems to be more their style... at least the way you guyso describe them.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question.... You are with a group of people hiding from imminent death from an enemy. In your group, there's a woman with a baby.... the baby starts crying and willond. Do you kill the baby to save the group?

First of all Jesus has nothing to do with this argument. To assume every republican is a Christian would be as dumb as me assuming every leftie was an athiest.

Secondly your comparing killing an innocent child to causing pain to a killer? Come on get real. I will tell you this, if someone was holding my family with the threat of death I would kill the perps to save my family. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a damn liar or a cowardly pos.

No... I offered you the exact same scenario that was asked in the OP header. I just changed the parameters. What does someone holding your family with the threat of death have to do with this. Are there Norwegians that are being held captive that I don't know about?

sure... i would protect my family... no doubt about it. But that has nothing to do with this.

Finally... Christian morals have a lot to do with this. The right wants this country to be a Christian Country... but doesn't want to subscribe to Christian Philosophy. They want to expound upon "other people's sins" and verbally damn them to hell for them... but don't want to hear about turning the other cheek, rendering no man evil for evil, Letting those without sin casting the first stone....

In short, the religious right seem pretty hypocritical to me.

Lastly... it's really none of our(as Americans) business what Norwegians do to procure the information they need. How about this.... you mentioned before(I think it was you) that this guy is not a trained spy who will resist torture... what about Sodium Pentathol? He's not trained to resist that either.

Personally, I don't care for Norway's 21 year max sentence in this case. This guy will probably never be safe for society and should be remanded behind bars for the rest of his life. But once again... that's their business, not ours.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Yeah.... by Ruthless empires... let's see... Vlad the Impaler, Medieval Castles, Inquisition, Crusades.... Modern era? Nazis, Koreans, Vietnamese... Funny... most of them in the modern era... were the BAD GUYS.

Amazing that no one brings up the idea that perhaps the information that the guy gives out after pulling his fingernails out... might be ANYONE... wrong information... purposely on the part of the guilty... Just random names to make the pain stop on the innocent.

BTW... how Christian of you righties to propose torture. Jesus would be so proud. You sure you guys aren't closet Muslims? That seems to be more their style... at least the way you guyso describe them.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question.... You are with a group of people hiding from imminent death from an enemy. In your group, there's a woman with a baby.... the baby starts crying and willond. Do you kill the baby to save the group?

First of all Jesus has nothing to do with this argument. To assume every republican is a Christian would be as dumb as me assuming every leftie was an athiest.

Secondly your comparing killing an innocent child to causing pain to a killer? Come on get real. I will tell you this, if someone was holding my family with the threat of death I would kill the perps to save my family. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a damn liar or a cowardly pos.

No... I offered you the exact same scenario that was asked in the OP header. I just changed the parameters. What does someone holding your family with the threat of death have to do with this. Are there Norwegians that are being held captive that I don't know about?

sure... i would protect my family... no doubt about it. But that has nothing to do with this.

Finally... Christian morals have a lot to do with this. The right wants this country to be a Christian Country... but doesn't want to subscribe to Christian Philosophy. They want to expound upon "other people's sins" and verbally damn them to hell for them... but don't want to hear about turning the other cheek, rendering no man evil for evil, Letting those without sin casting the first stone....

In short, the religious right seem pretty hypocritical to me.

Lastly... it's really none of our(as Americans) business what Norwegians do to procure the information they need. How about this.... you mentioned before(I think it was you) that this guy is not a trained spy who will resist torture... what about Sodium Pentathol? He's not trained to resist that either.

Personally, I don't care for Norway's 21 year max sentence in this case. This guy will probably never be safe for society and should be remanded behind bars for the rest of his life. But once again... that's their business, not ours.

I can agree with the second half of your post including the use of drugs to obtain info. But I take strong differences with your positions on Christianity in our govt. Yes our country was founded on Christian principles but that does not consume everyone on the right. I'm no longer a believer but I am a life long rep. I believe living within or by Christian values can be a good thing. But like anything else it can be twisted. Having said that its not a part of this conversation. This conversation is between you and I. Not you me and god. Your the one inserting religion into this discussion as an excuse to argue against a position based on ideology that I don't hold.
For instance, I'm pro life but not because of any religion but because I believe its life. I chose my moral beliefs based on my life experiences and things I've learned in my years alive. Not from some book or religion or political affiliation.

 

[Steelplate]

First of all Jesus has nothing to do with this argument. To assume every republican is a Christian would be as dumb as me assuming every leftie was an athiest.

Secondly your comparing killing an innocent child to causing pain to a killer? Come on get real. I will tell you this, if someone was holding my family with the threat of death I would kill the perps to save my family. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either a damn liar or a cowardly pos.

No... I offered you the exact same scenario that was asked in the OP header. I just changed the parameters. What does someone holding your family with the threat of death have to do with this. Are there Norwegians that are being held captive that I don't know about?

sure... i would protect my family... no doubt about it. But that has nothing to do with this.

Finally... Christian morals have a lot to do with this. The right wants this country to be a Christian Country... but doesn't want to subscribe to Christian Philosophy. They want to expound upon "other people's sins" and verbally damn them to hell for them... but don't want to hear about turning the other cheek, rendering no man evil for evil, Letting those without sin casting the first stone....

In short, the religious right seem pretty hypocritical to me.

Lastly... it's really none of our(as Americans) business what Norwegians do to procure the information they need. How about this.... you mentioned before(I think it was you) that this guy is not a trained spy who will resist torture... what about Sodium Pentathol? He's not trained to resist that either.

Personally, I don't care for Norway's 21 year max sentence in this case. This guy will probably never be safe for society and should be remanded behind bars for the rest of his life. But once again... that's their business, not ours.

I can agree with the second half of your post including the use of drugs to obtain info. But I take strong differences with your positions on Christianity in our govt. Yes our country was founded on Christian principles but that does not consume everyone on the right. I'm no longer a believer but I am a life long rep. I believe living within or by Christian values can be a good thing. But like anything else it can be twisted. Having said that its not a part of this conversation. This conversation is between you and I. Not you me and god. Your the one inserting religion into this discussion as an excuse to argue against a position based on ideology that I don't hold.
For instance, I'm pro life but not because of any religion but because I believe its life. I chose my moral beliefs based on my life experiences and things I've learned in my years alive. Not from some book or religion or political affiliation.

Sorry dude... any time you create a topic such as torture... Morality has a lot to do with it. Just like abortion and the death penalty. When one speaks of morality, religion is naturally part of the subject.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Read him his rights and risk the deaths of dozens more children or pull his fingernails to get the info and save untold deaths?

We’ll never know for a fact torture will save lives, evidence overwhelmingly indicates those tortured will say anything to end the abuse.

We do know for a fact, however, that a government which condones torture is a government outside of the law.

It's time to put political correctness back in our pockets and be proactive rather than reactive

Due process is not ‘political correctness,’ it’s the law.

And yes in "certain" circumstances I believe extreme measures should be used if it provides for the safety of the public at large.

And what are the criteria to identify those ‘certain circumstances? What is your basis in law to justify those ‘certain circumstances'?

McCain gave up intel when he was tortured.
John McCain: Torture Worked on Me

BinLadens couriers name was given under it

In a Republic subject to the rule of law, the ends never justify the means.

The states can get as big as they want and afford, and we can move to another state if we don't like it.

Incorrect.

States are subject to the Constitution per incorporation doctrine; one does not forfeit his civil rights because of the state in which he resides.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

No... I offered you the exact same scenario that was asked in the OP header. I just changed the parameters. What does someone holding your family with the threat of death have to do with this. Are there Norwegians that are being held captive that I don't know about?

sure... i would protect my family... no doubt about it. But that has nothing to do with this.

Finally... Christian morals have a lot to do with this. The right wants this country to be a Christian Country... but doesn't want to subscribe to Christian Philosophy. They want to expound upon "other people's sins" and verbally damn them to hell for them... but don't want to hear about turning the other cheek, rendering no man evil for evil, Letting those without sin casting the first stone....

In short, the religious right seem pretty hypocritical to me.

Lastly... it's really none of our(as Americans) business what Norwegians do to procure the information they need. How about this.... you mentioned before(I think it was you) that this guy is not a trained spy who will resist torture... what about Sodium Pentathol? He's not trained to resist that either.

Personally, I don't care for Norway's 21 year max sentence in this case. This guy will probably never be safe for society and should be remanded behind bars for the rest of his life. But once again... that's their business, not ours.

I can agree with the second half of your post including the use of drugs to obtain info. But I take strong differences with your positions on Christianity in our govt. Yes our country was founded on Christian principles but that does not consume everyone on the right. I'm no longer a believer but I am a life long rep. I believe living within or by Christian values can be a good thing. But like anything else it can be twisted. Having said that its not a part of this conversation. This conversation is between you and I. Not you me and god. Your the one inserting religion into this discussion as an excuse to argue against a position based on ideology that I don't hold.
For instance, I'm pro life but not because of any religion but because I believe its life. I chose my moral beliefs based on my life experiences and things I've learned in my years alive. Not from some book or religion or political affiliation.

Sorry dude... any time you create a topic such as torture... Morality has a lot to do with it. Just like abortion and the death penalty. When one speaks of morality, religion is naturally part of the subject.

Essentially your saying only those that hold religious beliefs are capable of leading a moral life or hold moral values.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I don't see how anyone can justify torture - or the death penalty - and claim to be in favor of a "smaller" government.

If the government can't do anything right, why would you trust them with these decisions? Why would you support the government having the power to kill or torture?

I think torture is justified, as long as it is not the government doing it. If a family member had gotten hold of this guy and tortured him for a few weeks it would not bother me in the least. Now that he is actually in custody, the government cannot violate his rights.

I can agree with this.