The right to choose

[alien21010]

Nevertheless, I’ve never said abortion in the case of rape and/or incest should be illegal, I’ve said it is wrong. However, abortion because “oops I got pregnant” should definitely be illegal.

I agree except in cases where contraception fails. Safe sex is only safe if the condoms work, a 1/100 error rate is still, way too high. Until contraceptions are either free, or almost flawless, abortion needs to be a method of birth control. I hate to say that, because it is a shame to terminate any life, be it human or otherwise.

Proving that you used contraception could be iffy-at-best and would causing a bunch of issues too.

 

[Thornton]

Look there's a big difference between adults choosing to go to war, adults killing and getting the death penalty for it and a innocent baby getting killed for being conceived at the wrong time. Big difference.

People who kill other people and get the death penalty are paying for the crime of murder. What did those little unborn babies do to deserve the death penalty? :shocked:

It always surprises me how people like you try to justify killing a innocent baby with war and the death penalty.

 

[KarlMarx]

ISo......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution"

You are half right. We do have freedom of religion. The First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. The initial intent of this clause was that Congress would not set up a state church as was done in England. At one time, English citizens were required by law to be members of the Church of England and to pay taxes to support it. The Founding Fathers did not want that here. Notice, that this has nothing to do with “the separation of Church and State”, which is actually a legal fiction brought about by the 1963 Supreme Court decision to throw prayer out of public schools. It is odd that the Left is so obsessed with the “establishment” clause and what it is supposed to mean that they totally ignore the rest of the text i.e. “prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. In fact the Left seems to be working overtime to prohibit the free exercise of religion in this country (especially Christianity) by trying to get God out of just about everything.

What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god.

There is a difference between abortion, capital punishment and war. First off, the Constitution spells out very clearly that the government has the power to wage war and outlines a process for doing so. The president declares war with the consent of Congress. Similarly, capital punishment is meted out only after due process of law has been exercised. That is, you have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and that you have been found to be guilty of a crime deserving death (usually involving a second trial). Abortion on the other hand, takes a life without due process of law and the person who is killed committed no crime deserving of death, jail time or even a spanking. In a majority of cases, the person who is killed in an abortion is merely a nuisance for being alive.

It is interesting that the same arguments given by the “pro-choice” advocates are strikingly similar to the arguments given during the Supreme Court’s decision of the Dred-Scott case, which the court declared the 1820 Missouri Compromise unconstitutional, thus permitting slavery in all of the country's territories. Justice Taney -- a staunch supporter of slavery and intent on protecting southerners from northern aggression -- wrote in the Court's majority opinion that, because Scott was black, he was not a citizen and therefore "had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the Negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever profit could be made by it."

Referring to the language in the Declaration of Independence that includes the phrase, "all men are created equal," Taney reasoned that "it is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration. . . ."

Sounds too much like the arguments for abortion. First, the fetus is not a person, but a “blob of tissue” with no legal rights and could be dispensed with because of the “woman’s” ( parallels with “the owner’s” in Dred Scott) “right to choose” (parallels with the right to be buy and sell someone else because they are nothing more than property in Dred Scott). Second, the Roe vs. Wade decision did not make abortion legal. The decision took away the States’ right to ban abortion and thus required abortion to be legal in all states (before Roe vs. Wade, abortion was legal in New York State, for instance). This is much like the Dred Scott decision which required states to treat slaves as property regardless of whether those states had legalized slavery or not.

It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe".

It is interesting that the Left accuses the Right of trying to impose its beliefs on people. Try this on for size. Because of the beliefs of the Left, I am required to pay extra taxes to support social programs which further the Left’s agenda and have been shown to be abysmal failures. Because of the beliefs of the Left, here in New York, I am required to pay taxes to support housing programs for gays and lesbians, even though my Catholicism (or more accurately, my Christianity) teaches that it is a grave sin. The Left has no qualms about using tax dollars to further the practice of abortion, even though I and others object to it. This sounds like taxation without representation to me. Furthermore, because of the Left, certain legal precedents have been established that clearly violate my first amendment rights. One can go on and on how certain laws on the books have created an environment that is hostile to the free exercise of religion. One can go further and point to certain laws, especially sexual harassment laws, that violate the my legal right to be thought “innocent before proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt”. Yes, the Left seems to be good at accusing the right of being judgmental, but it is the Left who routinely hurls out labels of “racist”, “homophobe”, “bigot”, “Nazi” and other epithets against those who disagree (and have the right to disagree and have the right to express those beliefs). Furthermore, the Left seems to want to shut down freedom of political speech (which the Constitution clearly protects) but pushes the routine dissemination of obscene materials e.g. pornography, ostensibly, to protect free speech. Finally, the Left's favorite trick is to get a court to over turn voter mandated laws. The ACLU is famous for that. The most famous example of this eggregious behavior is the Massachussets Supreme Courts decision demanding that the Legislature of that State pass laws to allow gay marriage, even though most people in that state are opposed to it.

 

[Trigg]

I have to disagree. It isn't just the Left that wants to push it's beliefs. Hospitals ran by the Catholic church wont even tie a womans tubes or perform any type of sterilization procedure. This is the church pushing their beliefs on a large group of people who aren't even catholic, but their insurance makes them go to that hosp.

Pro-life believes that life begines at conseption.

pro-choice people don't believe this.

If you or yours don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please, don't try to push YOUR ideas on me or mine.

As far as having to pay for social programs, that you or I, don't agree with and will never use. It's part of living in this country, get over it!!

 

[Thornton]

I have to disagree. It isn't just the Left that wants to push it's beliefs. Hospitals ran by the Catholic church wont even tie a womans tubes or perform any type of sterilization procedure. This is the church pushing their beliefs on a large group of people who aren't even catholic, but their insurance makes them go to that hosp.

Pro-life believes that life begines at conseption.

pro-choice people don't believe this.

If you or yours don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please, don't try to push YOUR ideas on me or mine.

As far as having to pay for social programs, that you or I, don't agree with and will never use. It's part of living in this country, get over it!!

My beliefs aren't based on religion. There based on defending the innocent. They are based on believing that innocent babies should not be slaughtered for being conceived at the wrong time. Sorry, but if you were abusing your born child in any way, I'd push my belief that it's wrong by caling the police.
As long as killing unborns is legal then I'll voice my opinion that it's wrong.

 

[KarlMarx]

I have to disagree. It isn't just the Left that wants to push it's beliefs. Hospitals ran by the Catholic church wont even tie a womans tubes or perform any type of sterilization procedure. This is the church pushing their beliefs on a large group of people who aren't even catholic, but their insurance makes them go to that hosp.

Pro-life believes that life begines at conseption.

pro-choice people don't believe this.

If you or yours don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please, don't try to push YOUR ideas on me or mine.

As far as having to pay for social programs, that you or I, don't agree with and will never use. It's part of living in this country, get over it!!

Hey Einstein....the Catholic Church can refuse to perform abortions, and sterilization in those hospitals if it wants to. It owns those hospitals, and does not receive funding from public sources. That's like me asking people who want to smoke to step outside of my house. It's private property, they're not violating the law, they have the right to do it.

That's not pushing their ideas on anyone, That is called property rights and freedom of religion....is that too difficult of a concept for you?

Or do you think we live in the People's Republic of China where the government dictates what churches can preach and does not respect the right of private property for its citizens?

Get over it....sounds like what the Right has been saying to the Left since 2000, but that's another issue, isn't it?

I'm not trying to push MY ideas on anyone. But your side has been pushing its ideas down my throat for quite some time. It has gotten to the point now that
1. I can't vote for a president without having to withstand countless lawsuits.
2. I can't express my political beliefs at work or elsewhere without getting labelled a fascist or getting called into my manager's office.
3. I can't have a bumper sticker that supports Bush/Cheney without taking the risk of having my car keyed or being threatened by some of you kooks.
4. I can be accused of sexually harrassing someone without evidence, simply by "feelings" in direct disregard to my right to be considered innocent before being proven guilty.
5. I get someone's sexuality stuck in my face whenever I'm at a stop light. Frankly, I don't care, but I really don't want to know. How's that for pushing your beliefs on me?
6. I have to listen to insults and attacks on the Catholic Church by the Surgeon General of the United States and by the media.
7. Whenever anyone on the right brings up cold hard evidence that refutes the Left's claims, they are automatically branded a Nazi, fascist or worse.
8. Diversity training is now required at work. That means tolerance of lifestyles that many of us believe in being immoral.


My previous point was that the way you lefties got your way with abortion parallels closely with how the pro-slavery side got their way with Dred-Scott. To you a fetus is not a person, does not deserver legal protections, and I say it does. Furthermore, you went so far as to take the States' right to determine whether abortion was legal or not, just like Dred Scott did with slavery. Furthermore, the government passes funding for all sorts of programs and whenever there is a decision to reduce spending (or more accurately, reduce the amount of an increase) in any one of them, the Left has a fit, and starts a slime campaign.

Finally, when the people do vote to ban gay marriage, or what not. The Left simply takes the case to court, (since most judges are pretty liberal, they don't have to look very hard for a sympathetic ear), and get the will of millions of people overturned. There goes my right to vote...what good does it do when a Left Wing judge can over turn it in an instant?

Furthermore, the Left shows just how much it respects law by the San Francisco/New Paltz marriage license fiascos which were done in clear violation of the laws of both the states of California and New York. Yet, no one went to jail over that! So when the law agrees with the Left's agenda, you wear that like a badge, but when the law does not agree with the Left's agenda, it is acceptable to break it. That's the Left for you... respect for the law, so long as it agrees with you, otherwise, you're the first to break it (and without consequence, I might add!).

 

[Trigg]

kARLMARX

The Catholic church runs the hospitals yes. But it isn't private property, it's a hospital. Non-catholics have to go to these hosp. for insurance reasons.

Insurance carriers require that people go to these hosp. they won't pay the bills if people go to another hosp. So yes, Einstein, they do force their beliefs on anyone who wants their tubes tied or a vasectomy and is refused.


Also surprise, surprise, I'm not liberal. I'm a conservative republican!!!!!!!!!!

I think women deserve to choose whether to carry a pregnancy caused by rape or incest. I also think people should be able to go to the hosp. (that their insurance carrier required) and have a sterilization procedure done.

 

[LowcountryQueen]

As for Abortion and Capital punishment. Im amazed that you cant tell the difference between mudering an innocent child because of the sins of his/her parents and executing a serial killer. One is an act of injustice. the other is justice.

yes it seems that we should be the ones to decide what is murder and what is not. Not the Almighty. Killing is killing. What makes it justice to kill a serial killer but an injustice when it is an unborn child. It amazes me when people can not see a sin is a sin regardless of your reasoning behind it.

 

[Trigg]

1. I can't vote for a president without having to withstand countless lawsuits.

I voted for Bush and will again. Gore filled suit and lost

2. I can't express my political beliefs at work or elsewhere without getting labelled a fascist or getting called into my manager's office.

politices don't belong at work, regardless of which side your on

03. I can't have a bumper sticker that supports Bush/Cheney without taking the risk of having my car keyed or being threatened by some of you kooks.

I voted Bush

4. I can be accused of sexually harrassing someone without evidence, simply by "feelings" in direct disregard to my right to be considered innocent before being proven guilty.
5. I get someone's sexuality stuck in my face whenever I'm at a stop light. Frankly, I don't care, but I really don't want to know. How's that for pushing your beliefs on me?

What?

6. I have to listen to insults and attacks on the Catholic Church by the Surgeon General of the United States and by the media.

Nothing wrong with the church. I have a problem with their policies at hospitals, that I am forced to go to because of insurance

7. Whenever anyone on the right brings up cold hard evidence that refutes the Left's claims, they are automatically branded a Nazi, fascist or worse.
8. Diversity training is now required at work. That means tolerance of lifestyles that many of us believe in being immoral.

Their are many lifestyles I disagree with, I keep them to myself when at work. Stop being such a bigmouth at work

Finally, when the people do vote to ban gay marriage, or what not. The Left simply takes the case to court, (since most judges are pretty liberal, they don't have to look very hard for a sympathetic ear), and get the will of millions of people overturned. There goes my right to vote...what good does it do when a Left Wing judge can over turn it in an instant?

Furthermore, the Left shows just how much it respects law by the San Francisco/New Paltz marriage license fiascos which were done in clear violation of the laws of both the states of California and New York. Yet, no one went to jail over that! So when the law agrees with the Left's agenda, you wear that like a badge, but when the law does not agree with the Left's agenda, it is acceptable to break it. That's the Left for you... respect for the law, so long as it agrees with you, otherwise, you're the first to break it (and without consequence, I might add!).

Finally I disagree with gay marriage. Some kind of cival union, if they adoped kids? I don't want it called marriage.

 

[LowcountryQueen]

kARLMARX


I think women deserve to choose whether to carry a pregnancy caused by rape or incest. I also think people should be able to go to the hosp. (that their insurance carrier required) and have a sterilization procedure done.

Right on! What people do not realize is that making abortion illegal will not stop abortion. Making it legal did not cause abortion. A legal abortion just makes it safe for the mother. Women died and suffered for years prior to Roe vs. Wade.
Regardless, if we think it is right or wrong, we should make it safe for women.

 

[Trinity]

I have to disagree. It isn't just the Left that wants to push it's beliefs. Hospitals ran by the Catholic church wont even tie a womans tubes or perform any type of sterilization procedure. This is the church pushing their beliefs on a large group of people who aren't even catholic, but their insurance makes them go to that hosp.

That's not entirely true, I had my 2 youngest children at Christ Hospital in Cincinnati, OH which is a Catholic Hospital, and I had my tubes tied right after my youngest was born in that hospital 6 years ago, so I think it depends more on the Doctor who is performing the surgery then the hospital it's self.

 

[Bonnie]

alien,

I do not know why it is so hard for many pro-choice people to grasp the difficulty of this concept. I am pro-choice, so please read what I am saying and try to comprehend it.

What the pro-life movements argument revolves around is not enfringing on the choice of the woman...but on the life of the child.

According to the most basic premise of the pro-life movement: A woman has the right to tatoo her entire body, pierce her clitoris, sleep with every single person, man or woman, in her city. She can shave her head, grow her nails so long they curl under, wear blue lipstick to church, take birth control to avoid getting pregnant or have as many children as her body would allow.

But once pregnant, she does not have the right to kill the person who is growing inside her.

Why?

Because the person growing inside her is NOT HER. NOT HER BODY. It is an entity entirely of itself, it has an entirely seperate heart, spinal cord, and start of a brain at 18 days or so...it will grow into a completely different person. Its only link to the womans body is that it is feeding off of it and growing within it. It is NOT that woman's body...it is a temporary tenant.

Pro-life people do not see it as a woman's choice...because they see it not as a choice, but a child. You do not have the right to shoot someone who is annoying you at work...you do not have the right to run over in the parking lot the man who took 25 items into the Express Lane in front of you at the grocery store....you do not have the right to kill your 18 year old because she wants to go to Harvard and you wanted to retire early...you don't get to kill your youngest child because you realize that you would be able to go to Bermuda this year if you had two kids not three...

You do not get to kill humans because they annoy you or because they are an ecomonic burden....but, according to the pro-choice movement (in the eyes of the pro-life movement) you do get to kill a human if they annoy you or are economically troubling and are unfortunate enough not to be born yet.

You can scream about it being a choice all you want...but what you are neglecting to realize is that half the US doesn't see it as a choice...they see it as a baby, or a fetus that will become a baby...

Just like you would (I hope!) call the police if you saw someone stabbing a man on the street corner, these people feel that abortion is murder and needs to be stopped.

The pro-life/pro-choice movements will never reach any semblance of consensus until the pro-choice movement recognizes this difference in thought and addresses how they will handle it.

Thank You for that intelligent and gracious response. I agree 100%. It's no longer a choice when one body becomes 2. I have no dersire to impose any of my beliefs on anyone, I don't care if people are religious or not, the bottom line is in this case we are talking about murdering an innocent helpless human being because they happen to be an inconvenience. If murder is illegal, then lets not be hypocritical and say well some muder is okay as long as we don't call it murder, we'll just call it choice, makes it sound nicer, more acceptable. How many doctors, scientists and teachers have we killed now as a society? Maybe even one who could have found the cure for Cancer or Aids by now, we'll never know??

 

[Bonnie]

I have to disagree. It isn't just the Left that wants to push it's beliefs. Hospitals ran by the Catholic church wont even tie a womans tubes or perform any type of sterilization procedure. This is the church pushing their beliefs on a large group of people who aren't even catholic, but their insurance makes them go to that hosp.

Pro-life believes that life begines at conseption.

pro-choice people don't believe this.

If you or yours don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please, don't try to push YOUR ideas on me or mine.

As far as having to pay for social programs, that you or I, don't agree with and will never use. It's part of living in this country, get over it!!

'

And so now you would have Catholic hospitals performing abortions even though it goes against the whole embodyment of their faith?????????

How about all of us who beleive it's murder, but still are forced by the government to pay for others to have abortions????? How is that not infringing on our rights??

 

[alien21010]

It is interesting that the same arguments given by the “pro-choice” advocates are strikingly similar to the arguments given during the Supreme Court’s decision of the Dred-Scott case, which the court declared the 1820 Missouri Compromise unconstitutional, thus permitting slavery in all of the country's territories. Justice Taney -- a staunch supporter of slavery and intent on protecting southerners from northern aggression -- wrote in the Court's majority opinion that, because Scott was black, he was not a citizen and therefore "had no rights which the white man was bound to respect; and that the Negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit. He was bought and sold and treated as an ordinary article of merchandise and traffic, whenever profit could be made by it."

Referring to the language in the Declaration of Independence that includes the phrase, "all men are created equal," Taney reasoned that "it is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration. . . ."

Sounds too much like the arguments for abortion. First, the fetus is not a person, but a “blob of tissue” with no legal rights and could be dispensed with because of the “woman’s” ( parallels with “the owner’s” in Dred Scott) “right to choose” (parallels with the right to be buy and sell someone else because they are nothing more than property in Dred Scott). Second, the Roe vs. Wade decision did not make abortion legal. The decision took away the States’ right to ban abortion and thus required abortion to be legal in all states (before Roe vs. Wade, abortion was legal in New York State, for instance). This is much like the Dred Scott decision which required states to treat slaves as property regardless of whether those states had legalized slavery or not.

A few points here:

The fetus is "a blob of tissue" until it begins to resemble a human with a heart and brain, and brain activity. Up until that point, all it shares in common with the average human is it's genetic make up.

Secondly, abortion in no way parallels the spread of slavery throughout the states. Why? It is not demanding that one self-aware human be demonized and subverted to ownership by another self-aware human. Abortion recognizes that the child is a dependent organism that could not survive without the mother. With that status, legally, the organism has less rights pertaining to it (just as the mentally handicapped do). If you are incapable of making a decision then someone else makes it for you? No? Is that not a legal precedent in this country?

Thirdly, it is not even semi-remeniscent of the Dredd Scott case, because Roe V Wade overturned an unconstitutional law. Can I defend the logic behind the Dredd Scott case? No. I think anyone here would be hard pressed to do so, because there is no logic behind it. Only hatred and misunderstanding. As much as you may hate Roe V Wade, it does affirm the right to choose. A fundamental right as stated by the declaration of human rights by the UN, and by the SCotUS.

Try this on for size. Because of the beliefs of the Left, I am required to pay extra taxes to support social programs which further the Left’s agenda and have been shown to be abysmal failures. Because of the beliefs of the Left, here in New York, I am required to pay taxes to support housing programs for gays and lesbians, even though my Catholicism (or more accurately, my Christianity) teaches that it is a grave sin.

Yet does Christianity not also teach you to love thy neighbor, as you would love yourself?

The Left has no qualms about using tax dollars to further the practice of abortion, even though I and others object to it. This sounds like taxation without representation to me.

What are you talking about man? You can vote however you want for your representative or more directly on Referendums directly. If not enough support your view though, then the legislation will pass. This is no way, form, or shape, resembles taxation without representation.

One can go on and on how certain laws on the books have created an environment that is hostile to the free exercise of religion. One can go further and point to certain laws, especially sexual harassment laws, that violate the my legal right to be thought “innocent before proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt”.

The First Amendment only applies to institutions where the government is at play. A private business owner can tell you to do whatever the fuck he wants you to do, and you either play the game or get fired (although most states have laws prohibiting this.)

I agree that sexual harassment laws and Rape laws for that matter have gotten way out of hand. If it's he said, she said, then she will win most likely. It's a very unfair and broken system, which favors the victimization of women.

Finally, the Left's favorite trick is to get a court to over turn voter mandated laws. The ACLU is famous for that. The most famous example of this eggregious behavior is the Massachussets Supreme Courts decision demanding that the Legislature of that State pass laws to allow gay marriage, even though most people in that state are opposed to it.

The only laws that get overturned are laws that are deemed unconstitutional. If you really want to get a law past the State's supreme court then you need to amend the Constitution. When the majority violates the rights of the minority, the courts are there to uphold the rights of the minority.

1. I can't vote for a president without having to withstand countless lawsuits.

I'm sure you mean that your candidate sustains lawsuits? If not can you cite a case, ever, where a citizen was sued for voting for a certain candidate?

2. I can't express my political beliefs at work or elsewhere without getting labelled a fascist or getting called into my manager's office.

You shouldn't be expressing your political beliefs regardless of whom you vote for at work.

3. I can't have a bumper sticker that supports Bush/Cheney without taking the risk of having my car keyed or being threatened by some of you kooks.

The same goes for people who have Kerry/Edwards stickers.

4. I can be accused of sexually harrassing someone without evidence, simply by "feelings" in direct disregard to my right to be considered innocent before being proven guilty.

I agree this is ridiculous.

7. Whenever anyone on the right brings up cold hard evidence that refutes the Left's claims, they are automatically branded a Nazi, fascist or worse.
8. Diversity training is now required at work. That means tolerance of lifestyles that many of us believe in being immoral.

Cold, hard evidence? The Right uses such methods?

Just kidding. If you want to bring evidence to the fight, then be prepared to defend it. When you debate with any side of the political spectrum, you're bound to find people who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the other sides arguments (although I find more people of the Far Right engage in this).

 

[KarlMarx]

A few points here:

The fetus is "a blob of tissue" until it begins to resemble a human with a heart and brain, and brain activity.

In your opinion, you mean.

Secondly, abortion in no way parallels the spread of slavery throughout the states. Why? It is not demanding that one self-aware human be demonized and subverted to ownership by another self-aware human. Abortion recognizes that the child is a dependent organism that could not survive without the mother. With that status, legally, the organism has less rights pertaining to it (just as the mentally handicapped do). If you are incapable of making a decision then someone else makes it for you? No? Is that not a legal precedent in this country?

Thirdly, it is not even semi-remeniscent of the Dredd Scott case, because Roe V Wade overturned an unconstitutional law. Can I defend the logic behind the Dredd Scott case? No. I think anyone here would be hard pressed to do so, because there is no logic behind it. Only hatred and misunderstanding. As much as you may hate Roe V Wade, it does affirm the right to choose. A fundamental right as stated by the declaration of human rights by the UN, and by the SCotUS.

I wasn't comparing Roe vs. Wade to the spread of slavery. I was comparing the logic used to justify Dred Scott with those used to justify abortion. Also, what does the UN's saying what is a right and what isn't have to do with American law?

Yet does Christianity not also teach you to love thy neighbor, as you would love yourself?

So, by your logic, if someone is an alcoholic, I should buy him a drink. Christianity also teaches absolute right and wrong. Homosexual acts are sinful according to Christianity.

The only laws that get overturned are laws that are deemed unconstitutional. If you really want to get a law past the State's supreme court then you need to amend the Constitution. When the majority violates the rights of the minority, the courts are there to uphold the rights of the minority.

Judges aren't as impartial as you would like to think. Many use their own biases when ruling, instead of relying on legal precedent.

I'm sure you mean that your candidate sustains lawsuits? If not can you cite a case, ever, where a citizen was sued for voting for a certain candidate?

You missed my point. Think about what happened in the 2000 elections (i.e. Gore vs. Bush) and what will most likely happen again.

You shouldn't be expressing your political beliefs regardless of whom you vote for at work.

I'm not. But I have seen situations where others was called on it. What makes this so evil sounding is that those with liberals views got a pass.

although I find more people of the Far Right engage in this.

Strange ... I find the opposite.

 

[LowcountryQueen]

I'm not. But I have seen situations where others was called on it. What makes this so evil sounding is that those with liberals views got a pass.

Strange ... I find the opposite.

Liberals have always gotten a pass. Think about it, Liberal views of yesterday are todays norms. No matter how hard you fight it people change, the way we live changes and our attitudes change. Abolishing slavery was a "liberal" issue, women and african americans voting was a liberal issue, women's liberation was a liberal issue, the civil rights act was a liberal issue and educating people equally was a liberal issues. All of these things are now the norm of our society (at least I hope so). So while conservatives continue to put us down we will continue to change the world for the good.
Do you know that before politics was a disgrace in this country. Liberal was a great word. All of the greats were liberals: Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Lyndon Johnson. I am amazed that in today's world people look down on people because they are open-minded. Being a liberal means you think other people views are just as important than yours. And even though you do not agree you are glad there are other views out there. Plus being a liberal allows people to reach there full potential. Think if we did not have Liberals America would never be what America is. We thrive on letting people be individuals (at least that is what this country was built on). I hope one day people will respect other views and other ways to live your life, instead of placing judgement on another view.

 

[Trigg]

'

And so now you would have Catholic hospitals performing abortions even though it goes against the whole embodyment of their faith?????????

How about all of us who beleive it's murder, but still are forced by the government to pay for others to have abortions????? How is that not infringing on our rights??

PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said Catholic Hospitals should not refuse to perform a vasectomy or tubal? I said nothing about Catholic Hosp. performing abortions. Please read my posts before replying to them in the future.

Abortions are performed at clinics payed for by the people who use them. I don't think medicade pays for them, I may be wrong. I don't think medicade should pay for them for reasons of birth controll. I also don't think they opperate with tax payer money. So you arn't paying for them.

 

[KarlMarx]

Liberals have always gotten a pass. Think about it, Liberal views of yesterday are todays norms. No matter how hard you fight it people change, the way we live changes and our attitudes change. Abolishing slavery was a "liberal" issue, women and african americans voting was a liberal issue, women's liberation was a liberal issue, the civil rights act was a liberal issue and educating people equally was a liberal issues. All of these things are now the norm of our society (at least I hope so). So while conservatives continue to put us down we will continue to change the world for the good.
Do you know that before politics was a disgrace in this country. Liberal was a great word. All of the greats were liberals: Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Lyndon Johnson. I am amazed that in today's world people look down on people because they are open-minded. Being a liberal means you think other people views are just as important than yours. And even though you do not agree you are glad there are other views out there. Plus being a liberal allows people to reach there full potential. Think if we did not have Liberals America would never be what America is. We thrive on letting people be individuals (at least that is what this country was built on). I hope one day people will respect other views and other ways to live your life, instead of placing judgement on another view.

Uh-huh. The term "liberal" has changed dramatically since the early 1960s. The term liberal now means a person that would have been described as "radical" or "Socialist". Many of today's liberals are more schooled in the philosophy of Marx than of Jefferson and feel have more in common with Lennin than with Lincoln. I would not go so far as to include Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson or even John F. Kennedy into that term.

For one thing, these three people were pro-America. John F. Kennedy was a staunch anti-communist and once said during his innaugural speech "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty." If anyone doubts this, one need only see what JFK was willing to do when he faced off the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Bay of Pigs invasion. If Kennedy were alive today, he'd be for the invasion of Iraq.
In fact, FDR is the president who declared war on Japan and Germany, approved the development of the atom bomb and Truman was the one who dropped the bomb (twice) on Japan. Truman also sent troops into Korea to face off the communists (along with the United Nations).

Of course, not all liberals are bad. I do have respect for Joe Lieberman, I may not agree with him, but he seems to be an honest man and stood by his support for the Iraq war, even though it cost him his presidential bid. Also, Daniel Patrick Moynahan, former Senator from New York was a great man (and sometimes liberal). However, these people are not the typical liberals of today.

These men and their attitude are almost diametrically opposed in outlook to the John Kerry liberals of today. The liberals of today blame America first, no believe that no war is worth fighting, hate individual acheivement.

Liberals do not believe in the individual now. They believe that government is the way to solve all problems. Many won't be happy until we have nothing but a cradle to grave nanny state with all of us dependent on government for everything.

And oh by the way, today's liberals do not think other people's ideas are just as important as theirs. One has only to turn on the radio, watch the news on TV, go to the movies or surf the 'Net to see the hatred and vitriol that the liberals are capable of. The Left brooks no dissent, tolerates no diversity of opinion. In the Liberal elite's mind set, you agree with the party line 100% or you are a pig.

As I said earlier, the liberals of today were yesterday's radicals and Socialists.

 

[Trigg]

I have to disagree. It isn't just the Left that wants to push it's beliefs. Hospitals ran by the Catholic church wont even tie a womans tubes or perform any type of sterilization procedure. This is the church pushing their beliefs on a large group of people who aren't even catholic, but their insurance makes them go to that hosp.

That's not entirely true, I had my 2 youngest children at Christ Hospital in Cincinnati, OH which is a Catholic Hospital, and I had my tubes tied right after my youngest was born in that hospital 6 years ago, so I think it depends more on the Doctor who is performing the surgery then the hospital it's self.

Maybe it differs by state then. The hosp. I was referring to is in Mich. They did refuse to do a tubal after a friends delivery since they're a Catholic Hosp.

I thought this was completely unfair since my friends ins. carrier didn't pay for her to go to the other hosp. in town.

 

[Bonnie]

Liberals have always gotten a pass. Think about it, Liberal views of yesterday are todays norms. No matter how hard you fight it people change, the way we live changes and our attitudes change. Abolishing slavery was a "liberal" issue, women and african americans voting was a liberal issue, women's liberation was a liberal issue, the civil rights act was a liberal issue and educating people equally was a liberal issues. All of these things are now the norm of our society (at least I hope so). So while conservatives continue to put us down we will continue to change the world for the good.
Do you know that before politics was a disgrace in this country. Liberal was a great word. All of the greats were liberals: Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Lyndon Johnson. I am amazed that in today's world people look down on people because they are open-minded. Being a liberal means you think other people views are just as important than yours. And even though you do not agree you are glad there are other views out there. Plus being a liberal allows people to reach there full potential. Think if we did not have Liberals America would never be what America is. We thrive on letting people be individuals (at least that is what this country was built on). I hope one day people will respect other views and other ways to live your life, instead of placing judgement on another view.

Tell that to the Liberals who are constantly labeling others who don't agree with them!! For instance Right wing lunatics!! Right Wing fanatics, becasue they don't want schools pushing a pro-gay agenda on their kids without any parental consent, because they don't think schools should have the right to help their kids get an abortion without parents consent, because they don't want government bleeding them dry with taxes that WEALTHY people like Kerry never come close to paying!, becaue they want One Nation Under God to be left in the Pledge, because they want the freedom to put up a nativity scene along with all the other Christmas ornaments in a public town square, because they are tired of Christian beliefs being denograted and demeaned, and told they have no place in public discussion, when it was in fact Christians who founded this country.!!!!!!! NICE TRY Im not all that impressed with the so called Liberal tolerance, just because it supports gay rights, the public funding of art that places the crucifix into a vat of urine, and abortion on demand for any reason, anywhere, anytime, at any age... Try getting truthful with yourself!