The right to choose

[Bonnie]

Then how do we as a civilized society decide when a baby actually becomes a baby??? A week, a month, 2 months 4 months, at the moment it's born???? What is the ruler we measure this by?? do we take morality completly out of the equation, is it just science that decides??

 

[dmp]

You're reaching, D. Joz's question dealt with aborting a very early term pregnancy. Chris advocates against the use of a morning after pill. I'm sure you're sufficiently up on your biology to know that the cells aborted the morning after have no skull in which anyone can stick a needle.

I wasn't 'reaching' - I was using a gross example to illustrate a point; a time-tested, cliche of sorts...punishing the child for the fears/crimes of the parents.

 

[dmp]

Well then I guess we can shut down all the foster care familys and the orphanages now. No use for them anymore with all the long lines.

That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Mr. P]

That just doesn't make sense.

No shit!

 

[Merlin1047]

Then how do we as a civilized society decide when a baby actually becomes a baby??? A week, a month, 2 months 4 months, at the moment it's born???? What is the ruler we measure this by?? do we take morality completly out of the equation, is it just science that decides??

Bonnie I think that is probably the best, if not only long term solution to this dilemma. If we can somehow arrive at a point of development and say "from here on it is murder to kill this fetus unless the life of the mother is in jepoardy", then I believe that we would have at least a minimum standard to balance the protection of the unborn and the rights of women.

Don't ask me where that point should be. That's waaay beyond my capabilities. The only things I'm sure of in my own mind is that a fertilized egg is not a baby and that in most cases partial birth abortion is murder.

This is a question that we as a people will have to work out. Hopefully the discussion can be as rational as most of that in this thread. But there will be preachers and politicians involved. Never a good mix.

 

[Mr. P]

Then how do we as a civilized society decide when a baby actually becomes a baby??? A week, a month, 2 months 4 months, at the moment it's born???? What is the ruler we measure this by?? do we take morality completly out of the equation, is it just science that decides??

I think it must be both Bonnie.
Personally I think partial birth abortion is murder. I don't think the morning after pill is murder.

 

[Mr. P]

Merlin... we do have that limit now. I can't remember exactly, I think it's within the first trimester (Not sure).
After that standard "abortions" are no longer available.

 

[ChrisH]

I am young, and maybe my views will change at some point. But I do not see myself ever supporting abortion.

Let me clarify some things, and make a little more sense out of my views;

I believe abortion is wrong. I do understand that extenuating circumstances do exist, however. If I were President, I would make abortion illegal, except in these extenuating circumstances. This would involve issues where the health and life of the woman were threatened. BUT, I believe it should be required for circumstances like this to be proven and documented. I believe a doctor, other than the doctor who would perform the abortion must determine that the woman's health and life are at risk and that every other possible option that could save both the woman and baby have been looked at. I also think that the woman should see a counseler of some kind to go over some of the possible psychological affects some women feel after an abortion and make sure that the decision is something that they truly want to do. I don't believe it should be as simple as finding out you are pregnant and then just going and getting an abortion.

One reason I do not agree with abortion and morning after pills is because I think it is just another excuse for young people, like myself, who are not married to have sex and then not have to bother with consequences of that action. It is for this reason I believe the above mentioned circumstance is the only situation I would allow abortion.

As far as a married couple who has done everything they can to prevent having children, or more children, including permanent methods, and still becomes pregnant; I would not support abortion unless the above circumstance, regarding health and life issues applied. These type of circumstances are extremely rare, and I would hope that after the initial shock, the couple would realize that they have to raise this child, planned or not.

 

[Trigg]

No I do not support the 'morning after pill'. If you do not believe you can have sex in a protecful manner, in an effort to prevent yourself from getting pregnant, then you shouldn't be having sex at all!

An innocent baby should not be killed, I don't care if it was conceived the night before, because you make a mistake, that could have been prevented in the first place!

What about rape? what about incest? These people arn't having "sex in a protectfull manner", they were forced!!! Some poor 13 year old shouldn't be forced to have her fathers child instead of given a morning after pill?

I happen to be against abortion for birth controll. But many women can't handle the thought of carrying a rapists child. These women deserve to be given a choice, since the choice wasn't given to them at the time to prevent the pregnancy.

This issue isn't black and white as some people would like to pretend. There are many shades of gray.

 

[Trigg]

Merlin... we do have that limit now. I can't remember exactly, I think it's within the first trimester (Not sure).
After that standard "abortions" are no longer available.

1. Abortion is legal during the first trimester as the womans choice.

2. Abortion during the second trimester has to have a severely malformed fetus that will not survive outside the womb.

3. Abortion during the third trimester is only to save the mothers life.

Partial birth abortions make up less than 1% of the abortions performed. They are only to save the mothers life. However these have become politicized and people have been made to believe they are done on a womans whim.

 

[rmdoyle]

I have to a few things to say about the right to choose. We live in a wonderful country that has its basis in freedom. I hope we all agree that since we are living together in a social enviornment we must have rules to keep social order, otherwise it would be total anarchy. So......a common misconception is that we have freedom "of religion" when in fact we are promised freedom "from religious persecution" What you believe.....and I hear it time and time again is the "I believe "abortion is wrong, "I believe" abortion is murder......"I believe abortion is immoral ". What you believe in becomes a truth for you. It is even hard at times within a structured truth or belief to be absolute....A person who believes abortion is murder might still favor capital punishment or support going to war and killing an enemy, sometimes even in the name of god. Belief has to do with religion, or faith and it often comes more from an emotional need rather than a rational or factual foundation. I have absolutely no problem with a need to believe. It is your right to believe....it is my right to believe ... in whatever we choose. But it is not your right to impose your beliefs on me. We ALL have opinions and beliefs, and I think the more secure we feel with our own concepts the less we feel the need to impose them on others. We are more tolerant, less judgmental, and a free society when we honor and respect the right of each other to live as they believe, not as "I believe". I want to exercise my right to make decisions about my body and my life. I want the right to make those decisions in a manner that is safe, without having to seek the permission of someone that I dont agree with. This then would be my good reason for the right to choose. It keeps you and your belief system out of my life.

This is a subject in which, I still don't have a definite opinion on. I truly think that a fetus has to be developed for a certain amount of time in order for one to actually say it is alive. There isn't a real big time frame on it. I also look at the current situation, when measuring this issue. I think that if a woman is rapped, than it should be necessary for them to have an abortion, if they feel the need (which is most cases). A woman can't necessarily help getting rapped, therefore should be entitled to some power within the situation.

 

[Bonnie]

What about rape? what about incest? These people arn't having "sex in a protectfull manner", they were forced!!! Some poor 13 year old shouldn't be forced to have her fathers child instead of given a morning after pill?

I happen to be against abortion for birth controll. But many women can't handle the thought of carrying a rapists child. These women deserve to be given a choice, since the choice wasn't given to them at the time to prevent the pregnancy.

This issue isn't black and white as some people would like to pretend. There are many shades of gray.

Is it the baby's fault then??? Why should the baby be killed for a sin someone else committed when they chose to rape? Many things do have shades of gray, life and death does not, deciding as a CIVILIZED society not to kill anything helpless or innocent is not the same as the government telling women they have to wear the color red, or they have to clean the house. Yes rape is Horrible! But there is still no reason to kill the baby over it!!!!!!!!! There is adoption!!

 

[drowe]

This is a subject in which, I still don't have a definite opinion on. I truly think that a fetus has to be developed for a certain amount of time in order for one to actually say it is alive. There isn't a real big time frame on it. I also look at the current situation, when measuring this issue. I think that if a woman is rapped, than it should be necessary for them to have an abortion, if they feel the need (which is most cases). A woman can't necessarily help getting rapped, therefore should be entitled to some power within the situation.

We were all once a small cluster of cells that form an embryo. There is no person on this planet that was never an embryo. Henceforth, destroying these cells, at in any point in development, is prohibiting further development ie. KILLING.

Should it be legal then to prohibit a 2 year-old child from developing further?

In cases of rape and incest, Bonnie is right, the unborn child should not be given a death penalty for someone else's crime.

 

[MissileMan]

We were all once a small cluster of cells that form an embryo. There is no person on this planet that was never an embryo. Henceforth, destroying these cells, at in any point in development, is prohibiting further development ie. KILLING.

Should it be legal then to prohibit a 2 year-old child from developing further?

In cases of rape and incest, Bonnie is right, the unborn child should not be given a death penalty for someone else's crime.

I'm sure that argument works very well for you, unless you happen to be the young woman being told she has to give birth to her own sibling. I think there needs to be a line drawn, where most everyone can agree a human being begins. A clump of a few cells without a brain isn't a human being, although it has the potential to become one.

Also, I think you meant "Therefore", not "Henceforth", unless someone crowned you "King Drowe" and didn't tell the rest of us.

 

[Trigg]

Is it the baby's fault then??? Why should the baby be killed for a sin someone else committed when they chose to rape? Many things do have shades of gray, life and death does not. Yes rape is Horrible! But there is still no reason to kill the baby over it!!!!!!!!! There is adoption!!

It's not the woman or girls faught either! I don't think it's right to force a young girl to carry a pregnancy from a rapist!

If your even raped you can CHOOSE to carry the child. Some people aren't strong enough to do this and they deserve to have a choice also.

 

[alien21010]

This debate is pointless:

A woman deserves the right to choose what happens to her body, regardless of who or what happens to her. The right to choose is a fundamental right of mankind, a basic premise upon which this country was founded. The moment we start legislating morality is the moment that we become a Theocracy.

Unfortunately, that may not sit well with some of you.

Tough.

Let the woman who will ultimately be responsible for the child, be it dead or alive, deal with the consequences. We do not need to go around imposing punishments for medical procedures.

 

[drowe]

I'm sure that argument works very well for you, unless you happen to be the young woman being told she has to give birth to her own sibling. I think there needs to be a line drawn, where most everyone can agree a human being begins. A clump of a few cells without a brain isn't a human being, although it has the potential to become one.

Also, I think you meant "Therefore", not "Henceforth", unless someone crowned you "King Drowe" and didn't tell the rest of us.

I happen to be the son of a rape victim (not incest rape), my brother has never said he wishes he was not alive. So yes the argument works very well for me.

I was unaware the word "henceforth" was reserved only for royalty.

henceforth -
\Hence`forth"\, adv. From this time forward; henceforward.

example - "I never from thy side henceforth to stray." --Milton.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

 

[Gem]

alien,

I do not know why it is so hard for many pro-choice people to grasp the difficulty of this concept. I am pro-choice, so please read what I am saying and try to comprehend it.

What the pro-life movements argument revolves around is not enfringing on the choice of the woman...but on the life of the child.

According to the most basic premise of the pro-life movement: A woman has the right to tatoo her entire body, pierce her clitoris, sleep with every single person, man or woman, in her city. She can shave her head, grow her nails so long they curl under, wear blue lipstick to church, take birth control to avoid getting pregnant or have as many children as her body would allow.

But once pregnant, she does not have the right to kill the person who is growing inside her.

Why?

Because the person growing inside her is NOT HER. NOT HER BODY. It is an entity entirely of itself, it has an entirely seperate heart, spinal cord, and start of a brain at 18 days or so...it will grow into a completely different person. Its only link to the womans body is that it is feeding off of it and growing within it. It is NOT that woman's body...it is a temporary tenant.

Pro-life people do not see it as a woman's choice...because they see it not as a choice, but a child. You do not have the right to shoot someone who is annoying you at work...you do not have the right to run over in the parking lot the man who took 25 items into the Express Lane in front of you at the grocery store....you do not have the right to kill your 18 year old because she wants to go to Harvard and you wanted to retire early...you don't get to kill your youngest child because you realize that you would be able to go to Bermuda this year if you had two kids not three...

You do not get to kill humans because they annoy you or because they are an ecomonic burden....but, according to the pro-choice movement (in the eyes of the pro-life movement) you do get to kill a human if they annoy you or are economically troubling and are unfortunate enough not to be born yet.

You can scream about it being a choice all you want...but what you are neglecting to realize is that half the US doesn't see it as a choice...they see it as a baby, or a fetus that will become a baby...

Just like you would (I hope!) call the police if you saw someone stabbing a man on the street corner, these people feel that abortion is murder and needs to be stopped.

The pro-life/pro-choice movements will never reach any semblance of consensus until the pro-choice movement recognizes this difference in thought and addresses how they will handle it.

 

[MissileMan]

I happen to be the son of a rape victim (not incest rape), my brother has never said he wishes he was not alive. So yes the argument works very well for me.

I was unaware the word "henceforth" was reserved only for royalty.

henceforth -
\Hence`forth"\, adv. From this time forward; henceforward.

example - "I never from thy side henceforth to stray." --Milton.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

The way you worded it, was like dictating law..."Henceforth, life begins at fertilization, because I say so"

Your mother made the choice to give birth to the progeny of her attacker, that doesn't mean that the same decision must be forced on all rape victims.

 

[drowe]

The way you worded it, was like dictating law..."Henceforth, life begins at fertilization, because I say so"

Your mother made the choice to give birth to the progeny of her attacker, that doesn't mean that the same decision must be forced on all rape victims.

After reading my post I can see how the tone could be interpreted that way. I will refrain from any further “Elizabethan posts” as they may evoke an authoritative intention.

I do not view my position on this issue as a necessary effort to force my opinion or belief on anyone. I simply view abortion as wrong. My Mother did not choose either she understood her responsibility. My brother, as it may interest you, was given up for adoption and we met for the first time three years ago and have discussed this very topic on more than one occasion.

Nevertheless, I’ve never said abortion in the case of rape and/or incest should be illegal, I’ve said it is wrong. However, abortion because “oops I got pregnant” should definitely be illegal.