good point Cecilie.....
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The reason why we have the most expensive healthcare in the world
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
good point Cecilie.....
- Moderator
- #62
You can read about this kind of stuff on an almost daily basis in the UK.
No you don't.
Yeah, you do, because I do. Oh look, here's another one.
Labour hid ugly truth about National Health Service (NHS) - Times Online
- Thread starter
- #63
now i am not putting the UK's system down....im sure they have good points as well as bad.....but if the UK has ins for everyone .....why is it necessary to have a benefit concert for ex Iron Maiden Drummer Clive Burr who suffers from MS....the cost of his disease has put him in tremendous debt....i thought this kind of shit only happens here?.....Anyone?.....maybe the expert Chris can tell me....
There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
The French have the best system. It is a hybrid of private and national health insurance.
- Moderator
- #64
There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
Single payer is socialized medicine.
- Thread starter
- #65
There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
Single payer is socialized medicine.
No it isn't.
The doctors still own their own practices.
Do a little reading.
- Thread starter
- #66
1. Canada's health care system is "socialized medicine."
False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.
The proper term for this is "single-payer insurance." In talking to Americans about it, the better phrase is "Medicare for all."
2. Doctors are hurt financially by single-payer health care.
True and False. Doctors in Canada do make less than their US counterparts. But they also have lower overhead, and usually much better working conditions. A few reasons for this:
First, as noted, they don't have to charge higher fees to cover the salary of a full-time staffer to deal with over a hundred different insurers, all of whom are bent on denying care whenever possible. In fact, most Canadian doctors get by quite nicely with just one assistant, who cheerfully handles the phones, mail, scheduling, patient reception, stocking, filing, and billing all by herself in the course of a standard workday.
Second, they don't have to spend several hours every day on the phone cajoling insurance company bean counters into doing the right thing by their patients. My doctor in California worked a 70-hour week: 35 hours seeing patients, and another 35 hours on the phone arguing with insurance companies. My Canadian doctor, on the other hand, works a 35-hour week, period. She files her invoices online, and the vast majority are simply paid -- quietly, quickly, and without hassle. There is no runaround. There are no fights. Appointments aren't interrupted by vexing phone calls. Care is seldom denied (because everybody knows the rules). She gets her checks on time, sees her patients on schedule, takes Thursdays off, and gets home in time for dinner.
One unsurprising side effect of all this is that the doctors I see here are, to a person, more focused, more relaxed, more generous with their time, more up-to-date in their specialties, and overall much less distracted from the real work of doctoring. You don't realize how much stress the American doctor-insurer fights put on the day-to-day quality of care until you see doctors who don't operate under that stress, because they never have to fight those battles at all. Amazingly: they seem to enjoy their jobs.
Third: The average American medical student graduates $140,000 in hock. The average Canadian doctor's debt is roughly half that.
Finally, Canadian doctors pay lower malpractice insurance fees. When paying for health care constitutes a one of a family's major expenses, expectations tend to run very high. A doctor's mistake not only damages the body; it may very well throw a middle-class family permanently into the ranks of the working poor, and render the victim uninsurable for life. With so much at stake, it's no wonder people are quick to rush to court for redress.
Canadians are far less likely to sue in the first place, since they're not having to absorb devastating financial losses in addition to any physical losses when something goes awry. The cost of the damaging treatment will be covered. So will the cost of fixing it. And, no matter what happens, the victim will remain insured for life. When lawsuits do occur, the awards don't have to include coverage for future medical costs, which reduces the insurance company's liability.
Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org
False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.
The proper term for this is "single-payer insurance." In talking to Americans about it, the better phrase is "Medicare for all."
2. Doctors are hurt financially by single-payer health care.
True and False. Doctors in Canada do make less than their US counterparts. But they also have lower overhead, and usually much better working conditions. A few reasons for this:
First, as noted, they don't have to charge higher fees to cover the salary of a full-time staffer to deal with over a hundred different insurers, all of whom are bent on denying care whenever possible. In fact, most Canadian doctors get by quite nicely with just one assistant, who cheerfully handles the phones, mail, scheduling, patient reception, stocking, filing, and billing all by herself in the course of a standard workday.
Second, they don't have to spend several hours every day on the phone cajoling insurance company bean counters into doing the right thing by their patients. My doctor in California worked a 70-hour week: 35 hours seeing patients, and another 35 hours on the phone arguing with insurance companies. My Canadian doctor, on the other hand, works a 35-hour week, period. She files her invoices online, and the vast majority are simply paid -- quietly, quickly, and without hassle. There is no runaround. There are no fights. Appointments aren't interrupted by vexing phone calls. Care is seldom denied (because everybody knows the rules). She gets her checks on time, sees her patients on schedule, takes Thursdays off, and gets home in time for dinner.
One unsurprising side effect of all this is that the doctors I see here are, to a person, more focused, more relaxed, more generous with their time, more up-to-date in their specialties, and overall much less distracted from the real work of doctoring. You don't realize how much stress the American doctor-insurer fights put on the day-to-day quality of care until you see doctors who don't operate under that stress, because they never have to fight those battles at all. Amazingly: they seem to enjoy their jobs.
Third: The average American medical student graduates $140,000 in hock. The average Canadian doctor's debt is roughly half that.
Finally, Canadian doctors pay lower malpractice insurance fees. When paying for health care constitutes a one of a family's major expenses, expectations tend to run very high. A doctor's mistake not only damages the body; it may very well throw a middle-class family permanently into the ranks of the working poor, and render the victim uninsurable for life. With so much at stake, it's no wonder people are quick to rush to court for redress.
Canadians are far less likely to sue in the first place, since they're not having to absorb devastating financial losses in addition to any physical losses when something goes awry. The cost of the damaging treatment will be covered. So will the cost of fixing it. And, no matter what happens, the victim will remain insured for life. When lawsuits do occur, the awards don't have to include coverage for future medical costs, which reduces the insurance company's liability.
Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I | OurFuture.org
- Banned
- #67
Yeah....Doctors "own" their medical practices just like Willy Messerschmitt "owned" his German airplane factories.There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
Single payer is socialized medicine.
No it isn't.
The doctors still own their own practices.
Do a little reading.
Do a little reading indeed.
- Sep 15, 2008
- 25,881
- 4,471
- 0
- Banned
- #68
Yeah....Doctors "own" their medical practices just like Willy Messerschmitt "owned" his German airplane factories.Single payer is socialized medicine.
No it isn't.
The doctors still own their own practices.
Do a little reading.
Do a little reading indeed.
he's read audacity of hope 100 times.
jreeves
Senior Member
- Feb 12, 2008
- 6,588
- 319
- 48
I thought Obama was the one who was going to get rid of Lobbyists..
Turns out that legally, he can't.
The framers designed congress to be responsible for cleaning their own house. All the President can do is continue suggesting reform. Please write your congresscritter.
Of course Obama didn't realize he couldn't rid lobbyist single-handily. Him being Mr. law review and all.....
- Feb 12, 2007
- 59,384
- 24,018
- 2,290
The reasons we have the most expensive health care in the world are many. A few:
- We have a high ratio of advanced medical techonolgies for the population (MRIs, Cat Scans) resulting in far lower waiting times than in other countries
- High cost of defensive medicine due to torts and malpractice insurance
- Lack of interstate competition
- Government mandates for insurance to cover things that are not in wide demand, forcing people to pay for coverage they do not way
- The bureaucratic mess of health insurance instead of paying for services directly which resulted from the tax code changes in the 1930s (health insurance offered as a benefit to by pass wage controls)
The first one is something we shouldn't change - the others should be addressed by reform. ObamaCare doesn't do this - and will cause a lower supply of the desirable ratio in the first point.
- We have a high ratio of advanced medical techonolgies for the population (MRIs, Cat Scans) resulting in far lower waiting times than in other countries
- High cost of defensive medicine due to torts and malpractice insurance
- Lack of interstate competition
- Government mandates for insurance to cover things that are not in wide demand, forcing people to pay for coverage they do not way
- The bureaucratic mess of health insurance instead of paying for services directly which resulted from the tax code changes in the 1930s (health insurance offered as a benefit to by pass wage controls)
The first one is something we shouldn't change - the others should be addressed by reform. ObamaCare doesn't do this - and will cause a lower supply of the desirable ratio in the first point.
The reasons we have the most expensive health care in the world are many. A few:
- We have a high ratio of advanced medical techonolgies for the population (MRIs, Cat Scans) resulting in far lower waiting times than in other countries
- High cost of defensive medicine due to torts and malpractice insurance
- Lack of interstate competition
- Government mandates for insurance to cover things that are not in wide demand, forcing people to pay for coverage they do not way
- The bureaucratic mess of health insurance instead of paying for services directly which resulted from the tax code changes in the 1930s (health insurance offered as a benefit to by pass wage controls)
The first one is something we shouldn't change - the others should be addressed by reform. ObamaCare doesn't do this - and will cause a lower supply of the desirable ratio in the first point.
Good points and I also agree all except #1 need to be changed big time.
We should probably add all the medical care received by illegals in this country as well. I also wonder about Medicare that only pays about 60% of cost per patient. The rest gets passed onto those with insurance so premiums are always going up.
and you never talk about their problems they are having Chris.....whenever someone shows you some of the problems they are having .....you just ignore the post.....France has no problems to you....France has many pluses,but they are having a hard time paying for this system,since nothing is free,someone has to pay to keep the wheels turning.....this article talks about the good AND the high cost of Frances system.....now i am not putting the UK's system down....im sure they have good points as well as bad.....but if the UK has ins for everyone .....why is it necessary to have a benefit concert for ex Iron Maiden Drummer Clive Burr who suffers from MS....the cost of his disease has put him in tremendous debt....i thought this kind of shit only happens here?.....Anyone?.....maybe the expert Chris can tell me....
There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
The French have the best system. It is a hybrid of private and national health insurance.
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com
- Sep 15, 2008
- 25,881
- 4,471
- 0
- Banned
- #73
and you never talk about their problems they are having Chris.....whenever someone shows you some of the problems they are having .....you just ignore the post.....France has no problems to you....France has many pluses,but they are having a hard time paying for this system,since nothing is free,someone has to pay to keep the wheels turning.....this article talks about the good AND the high cost of Frances system.....now i am not putting the UK's system down....im sure they have good points as well as bad.....but if the UK has ins for everyone .....why is it necessary to have a benefit concert for ex Iron Maiden Drummer Clive Burr who suffers from MS....the cost of his disease has put him in tremendous debt....i thought this kind of shit only happens here?.....Anyone?.....maybe the expert Chris can tell me....
There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
The French have the best system. It is a hybrid of private and national health insurance.
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com
I keep waiting for chris to move to france and stop leeching off this system, but like herpes, he never goes away.
and you never talk about their problems they are having Chris.....whenever someone shows you some of the problems they are having .....you just ignore the post.....France has no problems to you....France has many pluses,but they are having a hard time paying for this system,since nothing is free,someone has to pay to keep the wheels turning.....this article talks about the good AND the high cost of Frances system.....There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
The French have the best system. It is a hybrid of private and national health insurance.
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com
I keep waiting for chris to move to france and stop leeching off this system, but like herpes, he never goes away.
and if France had 300 million people their system would have crumbled a long time ago...
- Thread starter
- #75
and you never talk about their problems they are having Chris.....whenever someone shows you some of the problems they are having .....you just ignore the post.....France has no problems to you....France has many pluses,but they are having a hard time paying for this system,since nothing is free,someone has to pay to keep the wheels turning.....this article talks about the good AND the high cost of Frances system.....now i am not putting the UK's system down....im sure they have good points as well as bad.....but if the UK has ins for everyone .....why is it necessary to have a benefit concert for ex Iron Maiden Drummer Clive Burr who suffers from MS....the cost of his disease has put him in tremendous debt....i thought this kind of shit only happens here?.....Anyone?.....maybe the expert Chris can tell me....
There is this thing call google.....
But you never learned to use it.
The UK has socialized medicine which does not work as well as a single payer system or national health insurance.
The French have the best system. It is a hybrid of private and national health insurance.
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com
Every system has problems, and the WSJ is a Republican rag.
You realize you are a puppet for corporate lobbyists that are ripping us off, don't you?
- Thread starter
- #76
and you never talk about their problems they are having Chris.....whenever someone shows you some of the problems they are having .....you just ignore the post.....France has no problems to you....France has many pluses,but they are having a hard time paying for this system,since nothing is free,someone has to pay to keep the wheels turning.....this article talks about the good AND the high cost of Frances system.....
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost - WSJ.com
I keep waiting for chris to move to france and stop leeching off this system, but like herpes, he never goes away.
and if France had 300 million people their system would have crumbled a long time ago...
Horseshit.
Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because there are cost savings inherent in such a system. Our system is bloated, unfair, and expensive.
- Sep 15, 2008
- 25,881
- 4,471
- 0
- Banned
- #77
I keep waiting for chris to move to france and stop leeching off this system, but like herpes, he never goes away.
and if France had 300 million people their system would have crumbled a long time ago...
Horseshit.
Every other industrialized nation in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because there are cost savings inherent in such a system. Our system is bloated, unfair, and expensive.
yeah you tell em, comrade. you tell em.
Gatekeeper
Senior Member
We have the most expensive health care system in the word because pious do-gooding little dickweeds like you want free everything for everyone, at the expense of everyone else.
And I am paying 'our dues' for health care for a middle of the road plan for two people we pay over $9000/year and still have high co-pays. Most of our prescriptions now are $25 and $50! We get usually 5 or so per month, minimum each. adding up to another $2500-$3500/year to the cost.
ONE, yes 1 Boniva tablet for the wife, co-pay $50. Apparently the over the counter without insurance cost of this ONE pill is about $348.65!
According to this link:
Boniva - drugstore.com. Low prices, side effects, interactions.
And this is only ONE of many drugs that most of us perceive as outrageous costs, not to mention the all the other costs relating to other services and equipment that medical centers and doctors pass along to the 'consumer'.
There is so much to comment on with this health care issue it would take another 1500 pages with links that would rival the health care Bill in size and scope, so this part of my comment is done.
Three reasons Hc costs are getting beyond this system (or any system's) ability to pay
1. Aging population --most HC dollars are spent in declining years
2. Better, but more expensive HC -- a double whammy...not only does HC for the older cost more, but there's more old people to keep going longer, too.
3. The enormous rise in HC providers profits and incomes in comparison to what the rest of society is making.
There's jackshit we can do about 1 and 2, folks, until we start rationing HC, of course.
#3?
Well we can TRY to convince HC providers to take less money, but they're not going to go into that night gently.
This is NOT a partisan problem, folks, this is a REAL problem coming from reality of the world and it is not stemming from politics.
Blaming the Rs or the Ds for this real world development is just ignorant.
1. Aging population --most HC dollars are spent in declining years
2. Better, but more expensive HC -- a double whammy...not only does HC for the older cost more, but there's more old people to keep going longer, too.
3. The enormous rise in HC providers profits and incomes in comparison to what the rest of society is making.
There's jackshit we can do about 1 and 2, folks, until we start rationing HC, of course.
#3?
Well we can TRY to convince HC providers to take less money, but they're not going to go into that night gently.
This is NOT a partisan problem, folks, this is a REAL problem coming from reality of the world and it is not stemming from politics.
Blaming the Rs or the Ds for this real world development is just ignorant.
Three reasons Hc costs are getting beyond this system (or any system's) ability to pay
1. Aging population --most HC dollars are spent in declining years
2. Better, but more expensive HC -- a double whammy...not only does HC for the older cost more, but there's more old people to keep going longer, too.
3. The enormous rise in HC providers profits and incomes in comparison to what the rest of society is making.
There's jackshit we can do about 1 and 2, folks, until we start rationing HC, of course.
#3?
Well we can TRY to convince HC providers to take less money, but they're not going to go into that night gently.
This is NOT a partisan problem, folks, this is a REAL problem coming from reality of the world and it is not stemming from politics.
Blaming the Rs or the Ds for this real world development is just ignorant.
#3 yes the cost of care is, but I disagree with the reason. One of the biggest myths in this whole debate is premiums are so high because we are padding the wallets of executives. Yet report after report shows that insurance companies typically make profits in the single digits as a percentage. That's pretty low for any industry.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/02/health-insurance-companies-rank-88-by.html
Part of the reason health care costs so much is the nature of the transaction. You, the consumer of the service, have no bargaining power with the people who provide you the service, the doctors and hospitals. They deal with your insurance company on pretty much everything and since they have a bigger pool of money than you do, hospitals can charge more for their services. Part of the solution to this problem needs to be allowing individuals much greater choice an control over how their health care is provided.
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