The Real Problem with Immigration

[José]

Originally posted by BrianH
If it were the other way around, and Mexico had the better economy and more stability, you might have Americans immigrating to Mexico.

And fair minded mexicans would not blame America for Mexico’s inability to arrest and deport these illegal americans.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
Our Border Patrol have been attacked by people using Mexican Uniforms, vehicles marked as Mexican Military and using Mexican Military weapons and ammunition. INSIDE the US. ALso from across the border.

Originally posted by BrianH
Exactly...not to mention, Mexican police and military have crossed the borders illegally numerous times (Several miles)...

RGS is mixing apples and oranges, as usual, but I expected better from you, Brian.

The mexican incursions into the US and US border patrol being caught in the crossfire (stray bullets) between mexican authorities and criminals have nothing to do with illegal immigration.

(US Border Patrol spokesman) Salvador Zamora added that although incursions by the Mexican military do occur, they usually have taken place in areas of the border "not marked by monuments or signs." He said U.S. military units also have crossed mistakenly into Mexico.

Mexican military aggressive entrance into U.S. territory

And mexican drug smugglers usually wear military uniforms.

Again, this has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Bringing up this issue here borders on the intelectual dishonesty.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
Mexico SHARES the blame, The Government of Mexico ISSUES material to TEACH people IN Mexico how to slip across the border, how to survive in the desert and how to seek help once in the US.

RGS doesn’t even know what he’s talking about, probably never read the comic book as I did.

The booklet is a survival guide that strongly discourages mexicans from living illegaly in the US. It gives tips on how to cross the desert and the rivers because these are dangerous activities.

I could post dozens of pics of partially decomposed bodies rotting under the desert sun.

But let me show you, RGS, an example of a goverment REALLY helping land grabbers:

A powerful nation strongarming a weaker counterpart to give up more than half of its territory through:

1) - The invasion of Mexico,

2) – Defeat of the mexican army and military occupation of Mexico City,

3) – Forcing the mexican government to sign a treaty “selling” the territories for peanuts.

Now you have some REAL government help to land grabbers, RGS.

"In the murder of Mexicans upon their own soil, or in robbing them of their country, I can take no part either now or here-after. The guilt of these crimes must rest on others. I will not participate in them."
Joshua Giddings

 

[José]

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
We have even found tunnels when followed back into Mexico originated in Mexican Military and Police facilities.

Show me the mexican law that says illegal immigration is one of the duties expected from mexican police and military.

When mexican police/soldiers try to immigrate illegally they are acting as individuals not as representatives of the state.

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
The Mexican Government makes official protests about our enforcing our immigration laws while having draconian laws and enforcement along their own Southern Border. The Mexican Government complained that we cut off easy access for illegals to send money back to Mexico, they did it through diplomatic Channels and the President of Mexico called our President to complain.

Official complaints and diplomatic pressure amounts to two things: JACK and SHIT.

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
The Mexican Government makes official complaints when illegals are convicted of horrible crimes and sentence to long terms or the death penalty. Not because they think they are innocent, but because in Mexico they could get lighter sentences. Bush tried to INTERVENE in Texas affairs on just such a Matter.

Official complaints and diplomatic pressure amounts to two things: JACK and SHIT.

Now show me the mexican troops occupying the White House and preventing a legitimate american government from enforcing its immigration laws.

I don’t want to hear about diplomatic bullshit anymore.

You’re not debating with mentally retarded people here so you’re not fooling anyone with this “official complaints” pseudo argument.

JUST SHOW ME THE MEXICAN TROOPS OCCUPYING WASHINGTON D.C. OR BE QUIET AND STOP BLAMING AN INNOCENT COUNTRY.

 

[José]

Originally posted by RetiredGySgt
Mexico and it's people and Government are part of the problem. Pretending otherwise may make you feel good, but it is a bald faced lie.

Part of the problem is a certain sergeant of the US army I know.

Although he has too much time on his hands, he’s too lazy to get his ass off the chair and go to Washington D.C.to demmand that the us government do what it is paid to do.

How easier it is to blame a foreign country.

The same foreign country that lost more than half of its territory to the nation that now uses it as a scape goat to hide their own government’s SCANDALOUS dereliction of duty.

 

[editec]

Mexico is a nation with huge differences between the superweathy and the rest of the people.

America is becoming the same thanks to the class traitors who support people who are sellling out our nation for their own benefit.

America contrary to the myth, is NOT an especially weathy nation if you look at how most Americans live in comparison to other industrialized nations.

 

[Care4all]

oh, and your Palestine example is fucking retarded. We already established the difference between the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT ALLOWING THE GRINGOS versus THE WEST CARVING OUT ISRAEL DESPITE THE PALS.

Remember? history probably didn't change since the last thread.

One has to wonder if the Palestinians really do want their own state at this point...imho...seems there would be no reason to harbor their anger towards Israel anymore if they got what they PRETEND they want....

I say "pretend" because the Palestians have walked away severl key times since 1948 to working a deal where they would have their own State...

In fact, when Israel was created the Palestians REJECTED their own state which was offered to them at the state time....why would they do this....

And then under a couple of presidents and accords, they were very close to signing a peace agreement which would have lead to their own state but they again rejected such at the 11th hour...???

What's with all that...?

Care

 

[dilloduck]

One has to wonder if the Palestinians really do want their own state at this point...imho...seems there would be no reason to harbor their anger towards Israel anymore if they got what they PRETEND they want....

I say "pretend" because the Palestians have walked away severl key times since 1948 to working a deal where they would have their own State...

In fact, when Israel was created the Palestians REJECTED their own state which was offered to them at the state time....why would they do this....

And then under a couple of presidents and accords, they were very close to signing a peace agreement which would have lead to their own state but they again rejected such at the 11th hour...???

What's with all that...?

Care

It's my impression that the independent state they were offered seemed like a great deal to everyone except the Palistinians.

 

[Care4all]

It's my impression that the independent state they were offered seemed like a great deal to everyone except the Palistinians.

Yeah, that must be it Dillo....

The state of their affairs has been much better for them the last 60's by not accepting compromise and their own state/region....yep, they made the right decisions for their countrymen by their repeated rejections!

And Good morning!

Care

 

[dilloduck]

Yeah, that must be it Dillo....

The state of their affairs has been much better for them the last 60's by not accepting compromise and their own state/region....yep, they made the right decisions for their countrymen by their repeated rejections!

And Good morning!

Care

I think they believe that certain things are required for their state to be a successful one but who knows. They cant' seem to agree on what it is that want.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It's my impression that the independent state they were offered seemed like a great deal to everyone except the Palistinians.

In 1948 they would have had more land and would have split Israel into enclaves. They did not do it because the Arab nations promised to drive the Jews into the sea. The Arab nations ordered arabs in Israel out or be killed for aiding and abetting.

The Arab nations intended to split the area amongst Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt. There would have been no Palestine if they won either.

The Arab Nations ensured the palestinians would remain outcasts and live in slums.

Israel BEGGED its Arab population to remain in 1948 and help form a Nation of equals.

 

[dilloduck]

In 1948 they would have had more land and would have split Israel into enclaves. They did not do it because the Arab nations promised to drive the Jews into the sea. The Arab nations ordered arabs in Israel out or be killed for aiding and abetting.

The Arab nations intended to split the area amongst Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt. There would have been no Palestine if they won either.

The Arab Nations ensured the palestinians would remain outcasts and live in slums.

Israel BEGGED its Arab population to remain in 1948 and help form a Nation of equals.

I mean today.

 

[BrianH]

As I posted elsewhere, illegal american weapons are an important part of mexican violence, Brian.

Thousands of mexican citizens have been killed by criminals carrying weapons whose aquisition was possible thanks to America’s gun legislation where individuals buy a great variety of arms as easily as mexicans buy vegetables at a grocery store.

But you don’t see me blaming America for all those deaths like the super patriots of this Message Board do.

Why this difference?

Because the their peabrains seem to be unable to assimilate an extremely simple concept:

EACH SOVEREIGN COUNTRY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SECURITY OF ITS SIDE OF THE BORDER.

Mexico is under no obligation to change its society or act as America’s border patrol to stop illegal imigrants and America does not have any obligation to change its gun legislation or arrest weapon smugglers entering mexican territory.

Ok, in response to your bolded statement. If each country has a responsibility to secure its own side of the border, would Mexican illegals first have to be stopped by border security on Mexico's side, considering that's who they encounter first?

Well, there are many Americans that die from drug overdoses due to drug trafficking coming through/from Mexico. You blame it on America, but it's flat out supply and demand. If it wasn't for Mexicans wanting firearms, then they wouldn't have them. Same thing with Americans and drugs.

 

[BrianH]

Now you’re showing your pro US bias, Brian.

You’re basically blaming Mexico for being poor and the conclusion you draw that if Mexico was richer and/or had a more equitable distribution of income is absolutely wrong.

Even if Mexico had the most competent government in the world there would still exist a tremendous abyss separating the standard of living and job opportunities in both countries and illegal immigration would not be reduced at all.

Well natuarlly I'm more biased towards my own country....it's natural really...just as you are more biased towards your own country.

That's right, I am blaming Mexico for not taking care of what needs to be done...just as I would blame the U.S. for not taking care of what it needs to. Illegal immigration would be reduced if there was a better standard of living. You don't see Americans flocking down to Mexico to live, or Germans fleeing to Poland illegally.

 

[BrianH]

And fair minded mexicans would not blame America for Mexico’s inability to arrest and deport these illegal americans.

Are you crazy? If there were millions of Americans flooding into Mexico, and the Mexican gov. did nothing to stop it...Mexicans would be pissed off and you know it. It's not an inability...the U.S. has plenty of abilitiy to do so, but fail to act. If Mexico had the ability to stop millions of illegal Americans from entering, and didn't, Mexicans would be ticked....you know how short-tempered Mexicans are...

 

[BrianH]

RGS is mixing apples and oranges, as usual, but I expected better from you, Brian.

The mexican incursions into the US and US border patrol being caught in the crossfire (stray bullets) between mexican authorities and criminals have nothing to do with illegal immigration.

(US Border Patrol spokesman) Salvador Zamora added that although incursions by the Mexican military do occur, they usually have taken place in areas of the border "not marked by monuments or signs." He said U.S. military units also have crossed mistakenly into Mexico.

Mexican military aggressive entrance into U.S. territory

And mexican drug smugglers usually wear military uniforms.

Again, this has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Bringing up this issue here borders on the intelectual dishonesty.

Maybe not on your side of the border, but on our side of the border it does. Because many of these drug-lords are illegals and live on our side of the border. Not to mention, it's the U.S. failed border security that allows this type of thing. It is not the cause of Illegal immigration, but it place a crucial part. THe same downfall by crappy border security is achieved with these incursions and ability of drug-cartels to pass freely across the borders. And as far as the U.S. going into Mexico, I wouldn't blame the Mexican authorities for being pissed for the same reason.

I do not understand why you continue to debate this even after I've acknowledged the fact that it's not just Mexico's or just the U.S. fault...it's a shared failure.

 

[José]

Originally posted by BrianH
Ok, in response to your bolded statement. If each country has a responsibility to secure its own side of the border, would Mexican illegals first have to be stopped by border security on Mexico's side, considering that's who they encounter first?

Brian,

A Mexican drug smuggler leaving Mexico through a border checkpoint will be arrested, by the mexican border agents, if the drugs are found (by the honest ones at least).

But let’s imagine the following scenario:

A group of weapon smugglers are detected by electronic devices, crossing the Chihuahuan desert and heading towards Mexico about 20 miles from the nearest border patrol base.

The US border patrol will not arrest this group of individuals, as they would if they were a group of illegal immigrants entering the US, because they’re leaving the country.

Similarly, the Mexican border patrol will not arrest people leaving the country to work in the US illegally and will do its best to arrest the smuggler entering Mexican territory.

You are free to agree or disagree with this line of conduct followed by the US/Mexican border patrol, but this is how border patrols operate throughout the world.

America is not the only country facing immigration problems. Russia has a serious problem with Chinese illegal immigration into the Russian Far East.

I can assure you, you won’t see the Chinese border patrol leaving their bases to arrest Chinese illegal immigrants leaving the country either. Even border patrols in dictatorships like China don’t do what the American super patriots of this Board want the Mexican border patrol to do!!!

Illegal Mexicans entering US territory and illegal American weapons entering Mexico cannot be described in terms of “shared blame” because the responsibility for the apprehension of illegal immigrants/weapons falls squarely on the US/Mexican government, respectively.

 

[BrianH]

Brian,

A Mexican drug smuggler leaving Mexico through a border checkpoint will be arrested, by the mexican border agents, if the drugs are found (by the honest ones at least).

But let’s imagine the following scenario:

A group of weapon smugglers are detected by electronic devices, crossing the Chihuahuan desert and heading towards Mexico about 20 miles from the nearest border patrol base.

The US border patrol will not arrest this group of individuals, as they would if they were a group of illegal immigrants entering the US, because they’re leaving the country.

Similarly, the Mexican border patrol will not arrest people leaving the country to work in the US illegally and will do its best to arrest the smuggler entering Mexican territory.

You are free to agree or disagree with this line of conduct followed by the US/Mexican border patrol, but this is how border patrols operate throughout the world.

America is not the only country facing immigration problems. Russia has a serious problem with Chinese illegal immigration into the Russian Far East.

I can assure you, you won’t see the Chinese border patrol leaving their bases to arrest Chinese illegal immigrants leaving the country either. Even border patrols in dictatorships like China don’t do what the American super patriots of this Board want the Mexican border patrol to do!!!

Illegal Mexicans entering US territory and illegal American weapons entering Mexico cannot be described in terms of “shared blame” because the responsibility for the apprehension of illegal immigrants/weapons falls squarely on the US/Mexican government, respectively.

Well, I still say it's shared. If Mexicans did not have a demand for them, then America's illegal guns would not be any use or have any presence.

 

[José]

Originally posted by BrianH
Well, I still say it's shared. If Mexicans did not have a demand for them, then America's illegal guns would not be any use or have any presence.

Ok then, Brian. It was a good debate.

I'm gonna resuscitate the thread "How to destroy the US in six easy steps..." to continue our debate on Texas secession from Mexico, but not now.

 

[Shogun]

please do... I had lots of fun reminding you that mexico gave gringos the right to settle unlike the droves of mexicans flooding into America today.