The portrayal of fictional characters in non-animated plays/operas, TV shows and movies

[usmbguest5318]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

 

[Tijn Von Ingersleben]

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit.

Cool...I am looking to try out for the role of Shaka Zulu. As a middle aged white male I think I would bring quite a bit to the character. Imagine me standing before Lt. Francis Farewell (hopefully played by a female) of the Royal Lancers. My spear in one hand, my calf skin shield in the other, a proud Zulu Warrior as I recite my line;

"And now - What new bait have you brought for this monkey? Something shiny? Like the freshness of youth? Or lost love? "

Yeah, sounds alright to me.

 

[usmbguest5318]

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit.

Cool...I am looking to try out for the role of Shaka Zulu. As a middle aged white male I think I would bring quite a bit to the character. Imagine me standing before Lt. Francis Farewell (hopefully played by a female) of the Royal Lancers. My spear in one hand, my calf skin shield in the other, a proud Zulu Warrior as I recite my line;

"And now - What new bait have you brought for this monkey? Something shiny? Like the freshness of youth? Or lost love? "

Yeah, sounds alright to me.

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
-- Proverbs 17:28
​

.I am looking to try out for the role of Shaka Zulu....standing before Lt. Francis Farewell of the Royal Lancers.....

How droll....

In the thread title is found:

The portrayal of fictional characters in non-animated plays/operas, TV shows and movies

Is Shaka Zulu a fictional character? No!
Is Lt. Francis Farewell a fictional character? No!
Are the Royal Lancers a fictional cavalry unit? No!

O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
-- Job 13:5​

 

[Darkwind]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

 

[usmbguest5318]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

What is the context?

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

 

[Montrovant]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

What is the context?

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

 

[usmbguest5318]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

What is the context?

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

TY for your response. It's a good one, and I don't particularly take exception with it because it's the same thought progression I had when thinking about the question I've asked.

That said, the rarefied exception cases you note crossed my mind when I composed the OP, and it is in consideration of them that I included Coleridge's remark. So how do you reconcile his theme with your rarefied cases?

What is the context of the particular character is the important question.

Absolutely, that is the context respondents need to consider and define for themselves and express in their answers.

 

[Montrovant]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

What is the context?

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

TY for your response. It's a good one, and I don't particularly take exception with it because it's the same thought progression I had when thinking about the question I've asked.

That said, the rarefied exception cases you note crossed my mind when I composed the OP, and it is in consideration of them that I included Coleridge's remark. So how do you reconcile his theme with your rarefied cases?

What is the context of the particular character is the important question.

Absolutely, that is the context respondents need to consider and define for themselves and express in their answers.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant. I may be misreading his intention; the structure of the language he uses is not something one would normally encounter in modern America. He seems to be saying that he should create imaginary characters, then give them enough realism to allow suspension of disbelief. Wordsworth, on the other hand, took real characters and things and gave them a feeling of the supernatural.

That Coleridge would take an imaginary character and give it realistic traits does not necessarily have anything to do with race. Again, it's all dependent on the context of the particular character. In some cases race might be a way to enhance the realism of the character, in others it might not.

 

[Tijn Von Ingersleben]

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit.

Cool...I am looking to try out for the role of Shaka Zulu. As a middle aged white male I think I would bring quite a bit to the character. Imagine me standing before Lt. Francis Farewell (hopefully played by a female) of the Royal Lancers. My spear in one hand, my calf skin shield in the other, a proud Zulu Warrior as I recite my line;

"And now - What new bait have you brought for this monkey? Something shiny? Like the freshness of youth? Or lost love? "

Yeah, sounds alright to me.

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
-- Proverbs 17:28
​

.I am looking to try out for the role of Shaka Zulu....standing before Lt. Francis Farewell of the Royal Lancers.....

How droll....

In the thread title is found:

The portrayal of fictional characters in non-animated plays/operas, TV shows and movies

Is Shaka Zulu a fictional character? No!
Is Lt. Francis Farewell a fictional character? No!
Are the Royal Lancers a fictional cavalry unit? No!

O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
-- Job 13:5​

​

As a huge fan of Oprah. I have always wanted to play Sofia from The Color Purple. I found her portrayal of the character, post prison quite inspiring.

Hair greyed...milky eye darting left and right...speech slightly slurred...hunched over in in my purple overcoat.
I give my most powerful lines:
"I 'members that day in the store with Miss Millie - I's feelin' real down. I's feelin' mighty low. And when I seed you - I knowd they is a God. I knowd they is a God."

And i's too know there is a God...and someday that role will bees mines!

Thank you Xelor...isnt that a printer?

 

[usmbguest5318]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts
-- William Shakespeare, As You Like It
​

In the portrayal of characters in fictional characters (non-animated) in the performing arts, how important is the racial appearance of the actors?

IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it. The very essence of fiction and one's enjoyment of it is explained nowhere better than by Taylor Coleridge.

It was agreed, that my endeavours should be directed to persons and characters supernatural, or at least romantic, yet so as to transfer from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith. Mr. Wordsworth on the other hand was to propose to himself as his object, to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind's attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us.
-- Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Biographia Literaria
​

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

What is the context?

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

TY for your response. It's a good one, and I don't particularly take exception with it because it's the same thought progression I had when thinking about the question I've asked.

That said, the rarefied exception cases you note crossed my mind when I composed the OP, and it is in consideration of them that I included Coleridge's remark. So how do you reconcile his theme with your rarefied cases?

What is the context of the particular character is the important question.

Absolutely, that is the context respondents need to consider and define for themselves and express in their answers.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant. I may be misreading his intention; the structure of the language he uses is not something one would normally encounter in modern America. He seems to be saying that he should create imaginary characters, then give them enough realism to allow suspension of disbelief. Wordsworth, on the other hand, took real characters and things and gave them a feeling of the supernatural.

That Coleridge would take an imaginary character and give it realistic traits does not necessarily have anything to do with race. Again, it's all dependent on the context of the particular character. In some cases race might be a way to enhance the realism of the character, in others it might not.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant.

Fiction necessarily calls one to willingly suspend disbelief. When consuming fiction, one must necessarily do so because the medium involved is fiction.

Coleridge's axiom notwithstanding, it's a given that the human condition/experience is universal, which is why anyone can relate to joys and pains of others -- individuals and groups -- who are very different from them, be it by race, creed, gender, nationality, nexus, etc.. Thus, for example, if a white dude plays a Medieval Japanese shogun, does his whiteness make able to convey the emotions and motivations necessary to inspire in audience members the affinity with, disdain for, or some other set of emotions attendant to the character's personality and deeds?

Audience members, by consuming a work of fiction, have already agreed to the request that they suspend disbelief, so I say no, and as illustrations of the irrelevance of race I point to the following:

• Argo -- Ben Affleck played Antonio Mendez, a Latino man
• Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon -- Ralph Fiennes portrayed Michael Jackson, a black man.
• Breakfast at Tiffany's -- Mickey Rooney portrayed Mr. Yunioshi, a Japanese man.
• Othello -- Laurence Olivier portrayed Othello, a black man
• Lone Ranger -- Johnny Depp portrayed Tonto, a Native American man.
• Avengers -- Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, a white guy in comics.
• Thor -- Idris Elba as Heimdall, who legend describes as literally the whitest of Norse deities.
• Cinderella -- Brandy Norwood as Cinderella & Whitney Houston as the Fairy Godmother
• Fantastic Four -- Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm who was always a white dude in the comics.
• Prince of Persia -- Jake Gyllenhaal as Dastan, Prince of Persia; I think "Persia" says enough.
• The King and I -- Yul Brynner as the King of Siam; "Siam" says enough.
• Exodus: Gods and Kings -- Christian Bale portrayed Moses, who was of Middle Eastern or African extract of some sort.
• Noah -- Russell Crowe as Noah who had to had to have been of Middle Eastern extraction of some sort.

I've seen the productions above and the race of the character didn't cross my mind as I engaged with the film and the characters' words and deeds in the films.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Thank you Xelor...isnt that a printer?

No.

 

[Montrovant]

What is the context? Race, hairstyle, facial features, build height, musculature?

The setting? ScyFi? Fantasy? Historical?
Region? Hot, cold, equatorial?
Is the character the antagonist or protagonist?
Do they carry themselves in a manner relating to their personality or culture?
What was their upbringing? Terrorized as a child, a loving home, indifferent home?
Who were the people they grew up with? Who influenced them the most? Parent, teacher, a new comer to the town?

Their race isn't important. Who they were and how they develop is the key.

What is the context?

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

TY for your response. It's a good one, and I don't particularly take exception with it because it's the same thought progression I had when thinking about the question I've asked.

That said, the rarefied exception cases you note crossed my mind when I composed the OP, and it is in consideration of them that I included Coleridge's remark. So how do you reconcile his theme with your rarefied cases?

What is the context of the particular character is the important question.

Absolutely, that is the context respondents need to consider and define for themselves and express in their answers.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant. I may be misreading his intention; the structure of the language he uses is not something one would normally encounter in modern America. He seems to be saying that he should create imaginary characters, then give them enough realism to allow suspension of disbelief. Wordsworth, on the other hand, took real characters and things and gave them a feeling of the supernatural.

That Coleridge would take an imaginary character and give it realistic traits does not necessarily have anything to do with race. Again, it's all dependent on the context of the particular character. In some cases race might be a way to enhance the realism of the character, in others it might not.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant.

Fiction necessarily calls one to willingly suspend disbelief. When consuming fiction, one must necessarily do so because the medium involved is fiction.

Coleridge's axiom notwithstanding, it's a given that the human condition/experience is universal, which is why anyone can relate to joys and pains of others -- individuals and groups -- who are very different from them, be it by race, creed, gender, nationality, nexus, etc.. Thus, for example, if a white dude plays a Medieval Japanese shogun, does his whiteness make able to convey the emotions and motivations necessary to inspire in audience members the affinity with, disdain for, or some other set of emotions attendant to the character's personality and deeds?

Audience members, by consuming a work of fiction, have already agreed to the request that they suspend disbelief, so I say no, and as illustrations of the irrelevance of race I point to the following:

• Argo -- Ben Affleck played Antonio Mendez, a Latino man
• Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon -- Ralph Fiennes portrayed Michael Jackson, a black man.
• Breakfast at Tiffany's -- Mickey Rooney portrayed Mr. Yunioshi, a Japanese man.
• Othello -- Laurence Olivier portrayed Othello, a black man
• Lone Ranger -- Johnny Depp portrayed Tonto, a Native American man.
• Avengers -- Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, a white guy in comics.
• Thor -- Idris Elba as Heimdall, who legend describes as literally the whitest of Norse deities.
• Cinderella -- Brandy Norwood as Cinderella & Whitney Houston as the Fairy Godmother
• Fantastic Four -- Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm who was always a white dude in the comics.
• Prince of Persia -- Jake Gyllenhaal as Dastan, Prince of Persia; I think "Persia" says enough.
• The King and I -- Yul Brynner as the King of Siam; "Siam" says enough.
• Exodus: Gods and Kings -- Christian Bale portrayed Moses, who was of Middle Eastern or African extract of some sort.
• Noah -- Russell Crowe as Noah who had to had to have been of Middle Eastern extraction of some sort.

I've seen the productions above and the race of the character didn't cross my mind as I engaged with the film and the characters' words and deeds in the films.

Yes, fiction requires some suspension of disbelief. However, that does not mean that anything goes. I have all too often gotten into an argument with someone about a work of fiction in which they make the argument that, because some aspect of the work is fantastical, any fantastical aspect must be acceptable. That simply is not the case.

Any work of fiction will have its own internal rules. If those are ignored, it does not matter that the work is fiction, it will still be a problem. So, for example, The Walking Dead is a show about a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are obviously an entirely fictional, fantastical feature. However, were one of the main characters to gain the power of flight, it would be completely inconsistent with the rules of the world that has been created, and would make no sense, despite the suspension of disbelief required for the show.

I have not seen many of the films you list, but I'll make some comments.

Ralph Fiennes as Michael Jackson seems a bit wrong, but Jackson was such an odd character, and his skin lightened so much over the years, and because I have seen that listed as a comedy, it might not be much of an issue in that particular case. I'd need to watch it to really know.

Rooney's role in Breakfast at Tiffany's was horrible casting, is widely considered one of the more egregiously racist characters in Hollywood, and seems like a terrible example. I can see most of your other examples as making sense, but this one seems to actually work directly against your point.

Johnny Depp as Tonto is also a poor example. There was a lot of outrage about the casting. The movie was a flop. Audiences were not willing to attempt to suspend disbelief about the character, because the character's race/ethnicity are integral to who he is.

Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury took some getting used to. For those unfamiliar with the comics, it was probably not an issue at all. For comic readers who had seen Nick Fury as an older white man for so long, Jackson playing the role was a bit jarring. However, Fury's race is not intrinsic to who the character is, so the change of race was not a terrible thing.

Idris Elba as Heimdall - I didn't know much of anything about Heimdall going into the movie, so his race was meaningless to me. I imagine the same is true of most audiences. I still don't know enough to say if his race is important to his character, although I doubt it.

Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm was somewhat bad casting. Johnny Storm and Susan Storm are siblings, and the movie had to make them adopted siblings for the move to work. It would have required less change if Reed Richards or Ben Grimm were of a different race. However, this is another example of the issue being one of a long-term pre-existing character story, rather than race being important to who the character is, so in the end, it is doable. Unfortunately, the movie was garbage, regardless of the races of the actors.

It seems pretty common in the US, or maybe even in the West, to think of Middle Eastern religious figures as having been white. Have an Asian Moses or Noah and that suspension of disbelief would probably suffer casualties here.

It still comes back to context being the key.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Seriously? One of the shortest and simplest OPs I've posted on USMB -- four short sentences of my own composition -- and the context is unclear to you? Really?

The principle contexts of this thread are

1. The apparent race of the actors -- This context is found in the OP question: "How important is the racial appearance of the actors?" It is echoed in my own answer, also in the OP, to that question: "IMO, it doesn't matter one bit. In the realm of fiction, anything's possible, so how could it."
2. That the characters those actors portray are fictional -- This element of the context is found in the thread title.

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

TY for your response. It's a good one, and I don't particularly take exception with it because it's the same thought progression I had when thinking about the question I've asked.

That said, the rarefied exception cases you note crossed my mind when I composed the OP, and it is in consideration of them that I included Coleridge's remark. So how do you reconcile his theme with your rarefied cases?

What is the context of the particular character is the important question.

Absolutely, that is the context respondents need to consider and define for themselves and express in their answers.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant. I may be misreading his intention; the structure of the language he uses is not something one would normally encounter in modern America. He seems to be saying that he should create imaginary characters, then give them enough realism to allow suspension of disbelief. Wordsworth, on the other hand, took real characters and things and gave them a feeling of the supernatural.

That Coleridge would take an imaginary character and give it realistic traits does not necessarily have anything to do with race. Again, it's all dependent on the context of the particular character. In some cases race might be a way to enhance the realism of the character, in others it might not.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant.

Fiction necessarily calls one to willingly suspend disbelief. When consuming fiction, one must necessarily do so because the medium involved is fiction.

Coleridge's axiom notwithstanding, it's a given that the human condition/experience is universal, which is why anyone can relate to joys and pains of others -- individuals and groups -- who are very different from them, be it by race, creed, gender, nationality, nexus, etc.. Thus, for example, if a white dude plays a Medieval Japanese shogun, does his whiteness make able to convey the emotions and motivations necessary to inspire in audience members the affinity with, disdain for, or some other set of emotions attendant to the character's personality and deeds?

Audience members, by consuming a work of fiction, have already agreed to the request that they suspend disbelief, so I say no, and as illustrations of the irrelevance of race I point to the following:

• Argo -- Ben Affleck played Antonio Mendez, a Latino man
• Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon -- Ralph Fiennes portrayed Michael Jackson, a black man.
• Breakfast at Tiffany's -- Mickey Rooney portrayed Mr. Yunioshi, a Japanese man.
• Othello -- Laurence Olivier portrayed Othello, a black man
• Lone Ranger -- Johnny Depp portrayed Tonto, a Native American man.
• Avengers -- Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, a white guy in comics.
• Thor -- Idris Elba as Heimdall, who legend describes as literally the whitest of Norse deities.
• Cinderella -- Brandy Norwood as Cinderella & Whitney Houston as the Fairy Godmother
• Fantastic Four -- Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm who was always a white dude in the comics.
• Prince of Persia -- Jake Gyllenhaal as Dastan, Prince of Persia; I think "Persia" says enough.
• The King and I -- Yul Brynner as the King of Siam; "Siam" says enough.
• Exodus: Gods and Kings -- Christian Bale portrayed Moses, who was of Middle Eastern or African extract of some sort.
• Noah -- Russell Crowe as Noah who had to had to have been of Middle Eastern extraction of some sort.

I've seen the productions above and the race of the character didn't cross my mind as I engaged with the film and the characters' words and deeds in the films.

Yes, fiction requires some suspension of disbelief. However, that does not mean that anything goes. I have all too often gotten into an argument with someone about a work of fiction in which they make the argument that, because some aspect of the work is fantastical, any fantastical aspect must be acceptable. That simply is not the case.

Any work of fiction will have its own internal rules. If those are ignored, it does not matter that the work is fiction, it will still be a problem. So, for example, The Walking Dead is a show about a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are obviously an entirely fictional, fantastical feature. However, were one of the main characters to gain the power of flight, it would be completely inconsistent with the rules of the world that has been created, and would make no sense, despite the suspension of disbelief required for the show.

I have not seen many of the films you list, but I'll make some comments.

Ralph Fiennes as Michael Jackson seems a bit wrong, but Jackson was such an odd character, and his skin lightened so much over the years, and because I have seen that listed as a comedy, it might not be much of an issue in that particular case. I'd need to watch it to really know.

Rooney's role in Breakfast at Tiffany's was horrible casting, is widely considered one of the more egregiously racist characters in Hollywood, and seems like a terrible example. I can see most of your other examples as making sense, but this one seems to actually work directly against your point.

Johnny Depp as Tonto is also a poor example. There was a lot of outrage about the casting. The movie was a flop. Audiences were not willing to attempt to suspend disbelief about the character, because the character's race/ethnicity are integral to who he is.

Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury took some getting used to. For those unfamiliar with the comics, it was probably not an issue at all. For comic readers who had seen Nick Fury as an older white man for so long, Jackson playing the role was a bit jarring. However, Fury's race is not intrinsic to who the character is, so the change of race was not a terrible thing.

Idris Elba as Heimdall - I didn't know much of anything about Heimdall going into the movie, so his race was meaningless to me. I imagine the same is true of most audiences. I still don't know enough to say if his race is important to his character, although I doubt it.

Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm was somewhat bad casting. Johnny Storm and Susan Storm are siblings, and the movie had to make them adopted siblings for the move to work. It would have required less change if Reed Richards or Ben Grimm were of a different race. However, this is another example of the issue being one of a long-term pre-existing character story, rather than race being important to who the character is, so in the end, it is doable. Unfortunately, the movie was garbage, regardless of the races of the actors.

It seems pretty common in the US, or maybe even in the West, to think of Middle Eastern religious figures as having been white. Have an Asian Moses or Noah and that suspension of disbelief would probably suffer casualties here.

It still comes back to context being the key.

Yes, fiction requires some suspension of disbelief. However, that does not mean that anything goes.

LOL Since when? LOL

What about Alice in Wonderland, Humpty Dumpty, Three Billy Goats Gruff, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and myriad other fictional works isn't damn near "anything goes" from start to finish? The very point of fiction is that anything most certainly can, will and does go, so long as the author wills it so.

 

[Montrovant]

What is the context of the particular character is the important question. Is the character's race important to that character? If you have a character that is part of a white supremacist organization, for example, a non-white actor probably won't work. A character that is playing a ronin in feudal Japan should probably not be white. Obviously it's possible to do these things, but it depends on how the character is written.

In many cases, the race of a character does not matter, but in some cases, it is an integral part of the character. Being a fictional character does not mean race cannot be an important consideration.

Idris Elba playing the gunslinger in The Dark Tower? That's fine. The character may have been white in the books, but it wasn't integral to the character. Idris Elba as James Bond? Again, no problem. Bond may have been written as a white guy, but it does not seem to be integral to the character. Idris Elba as a fictional grandmaster of the KKK? That does not work unless the story allows for such a major deviation from the expected or sensible.

TY for your response. It's a good one, and I don't particularly take exception with it because it's the same thought progression I had when thinking about the question I've asked.

That said, the rarefied exception cases you note crossed my mind when I composed the OP, and it is in consideration of them that I included Coleridge's remark. So how do you reconcile his theme with your rarefied cases?

What is the context of the particular character is the important question.

Absolutely, that is the context respondents need to consider and define for themselves and express in their answers.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant. I may be misreading his intention; the structure of the language he uses is not something one would normally encounter in modern America. He seems to be saying that he should create imaginary characters, then give them enough realism to allow suspension of disbelief. Wordsworth, on the other hand, took real characters and things and gave them a feeling of the supernatural.

That Coleridge would take an imaginary character and give it realistic traits does not necessarily have anything to do with race. Again, it's all dependent on the context of the particular character. In some cases race might be a way to enhance the realism of the character, in others it might not.

I'm not sure how the Coleridge quote is especially relevant.

Fiction necessarily calls one to willingly suspend disbelief. When consuming fiction, one must necessarily do so because the medium involved is fiction.

Coleridge's axiom notwithstanding, it's a given that the human condition/experience is universal, which is why anyone can relate to joys and pains of others -- individuals and groups -- who are very different from them, be it by race, creed, gender, nationality, nexus, etc.. Thus, for example, if a white dude plays a Medieval Japanese shogun, does his whiteness make able to convey the emotions and motivations necessary to inspire in audience members the affinity with, disdain for, or some other set of emotions attendant to the character's personality and deeds?

Audience members, by consuming a work of fiction, have already agreed to the request that they suspend disbelief, so I say no, and as illustrations of the irrelevance of race I point to the following:

• Argo -- Ben Affleck played Antonio Mendez, a Latino man
• Elizabeth, Michael and Marlon -- Ralph Fiennes portrayed Michael Jackson, a black man.
• Breakfast at Tiffany's -- Mickey Rooney portrayed Mr. Yunioshi, a Japanese man.
• Othello -- Laurence Olivier portrayed Othello, a black man
• Lone Ranger -- Johnny Depp portrayed Tonto, a Native American man.
• Avengers -- Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, a white guy in comics.
• Thor -- Idris Elba as Heimdall, who legend describes as literally the whitest of Norse deities.
• Cinderella -- Brandy Norwood as Cinderella & Whitney Houston as the Fairy Godmother
• Fantastic Four -- Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm who was always a white dude in the comics.
• Prince of Persia -- Jake Gyllenhaal as Dastan, Prince of Persia; I think "Persia" says enough.
• The King and I -- Yul Brynner as the King of Siam; "Siam" says enough.
• Exodus: Gods and Kings -- Christian Bale portrayed Moses, who was of Middle Eastern or African extract of some sort.
• Noah -- Russell Crowe as Noah who had to had to have been of Middle Eastern extraction of some sort.

I've seen the productions above and the race of the character didn't cross my mind as I engaged with the film and the characters' words and deeds in the films.

Yes, fiction requires some suspension of disbelief. However, that does not mean that anything goes. I have all too often gotten into an argument with someone about a work of fiction in which they make the argument that, because some aspect of the work is fantastical, any fantastical aspect must be acceptable. That simply is not the case.

Any work of fiction will have its own internal rules. If those are ignored, it does not matter that the work is fiction, it will still be a problem. So, for example, The Walking Dead is a show about a zombie apocalypse. Zombies are obviously an entirely fictional, fantastical feature. However, were one of the main characters to gain the power of flight, it would be completely inconsistent with the rules of the world that has been created, and would make no sense, despite the suspension of disbelief required for the show.

I have not seen many of the films you list, but I'll make some comments.

Ralph Fiennes as Michael Jackson seems a bit wrong, but Jackson was such an odd character, and his skin lightened so much over the years, and because I have seen that listed as a comedy, it might not be much of an issue in that particular case. I'd need to watch it to really know.

Rooney's role in Breakfast at Tiffany's was horrible casting, is widely considered one of the more egregiously racist characters in Hollywood, and seems like a terrible example. I can see most of your other examples as making sense, but this one seems to actually work directly against your point.

Johnny Depp as Tonto is also a poor example. There was a lot of outrage about the casting. The movie was a flop. Audiences were not willing to attempt to suspend disbelief about the character, because the character's race/ethnicity are integral to who he is.

Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury took some getting used to. For those unfamiliar with the comics, it was probably not an issue at all. For comic readers who had seen Nick Fury as an older white man for so long, Jackson playing the role was a bit jarring. However, Fury's race is not intrinsic to who the character is, so the change of race was not a terrible thing.

Idris Elba as Heimdall - I didn't know much of anything about Heimdall going into the movie, so his race was meaningless to me. I imagine the same is true of most audiences. I still don't know enough to say if his race is important to his character, although I doubt it.

Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm was somewhat bad casting. Johnny Storm and Susan Storm are siblings, and the movie had to make them adopted siblings for the move to work. It would have required less change if Reed Richards or Ben Grimm were of a different race. However, this is another example of the issue being one of a long-term pre-existing character story, rather than race being important to who the character is, so in the end, it is doable. Unfortunately, the movie was garbage, regardless of the races of the actors.

It seems pretty common in the US, or maybe even in the West, to think of Middle Eastern religious figures as having been white. Have an Asian Moses or Noah and that suspension of disbelief would probably suffer casualties here.

It still comes back to context being the key.

Yes, fiction requires some suspension of disbelief. However, that does not mean that anything goes.

LOL Since when? LOL

What about Alice in Wonderland, Humpty Dumpty, Three Billy Goats Gruff, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and myriad other fictional works isn't damn near "anything goes" from start to finish? The very point of fiction is that anything most certainly can, will and does go, so long as the author wills it so.

You are completely incorrect. Each of those stories had their own internal rules. Even Alice in Wonderland, which had a lot less in the way of rules governing the story than most, would not have made sense to have certain elements entered into it. Lord of the Rings and Star Wars? What if Tolkein had added a Millenium Falcon into his story? It would have been completely inconsistent with the world he had built, and not made sense.

Just because a story is fictional does NOT mean that the author/writer/director can put anything into it whatsoever and it will work. If that were so, these would not be stories, but rather random characters and elements put together without any cohesion.

The point of fiction is to have a story that is not limited by the real world. However, each story is limited by whatever rules the author creates within it. Again, see my Walking Dead example. If people in that show developed the power of flight, would that not undermine the audience's suspension of disbelief, because it is not internally consistent with the world the story takes place in?

This seems like such an obvious concept to me. Anything CAN be put in a fictional story, but if a fictional world is created and an element which does not belong in that world is introduced, it breaks the suspension of disbelief.