The Policy Positions that Have My Vote Going to Obama

[IndependntLogic]

I got kinda interested again in your "example" about Abbott Labs and LexaPro.. Besides the fact that you impugned my southern honor and TOTALLY MANGLED the size of the Irish Operation that Abbott ligitimately runs ---- I can't find an INKLING of any evidence that Abbott DEVELOPED or has ever sold LEXAPRO or it's generic.. Either IN the U.S. or anywhere else in the Milky Way...

Now ain't that odd??? The question really is -- do you have any credibility at all? Or isn't credibility an assett for a psychic of your esteem? OR (my favorite theory) --- is this just a desperate cry from a head case who's misplaced his LEXAPRO???

I guess you missed the part where I explained it's been a while since i'd read about it andadmitted I was mistaken and that it's Forrest Labs that is doing this.

I would much rather discuss policy than practice my ad hominem attacks.

What policy am I concerned about? Sadly there is nobody that is going to try to advance the ideas I espouse. I'll tell you what I want to see done which I believe would begin to fix the mess that we find ourselves in.


I would like to see government divorce itself from both business and labor. I would like to see a day when government gets back to the practice of enforcing contracts and stops the practice of dictating the contracts. I am fine with having unions but not with unions advancing "labor laws". Conversely I am not ok with corporations having laws passed to benefit them. Ultimately there is no way to divorce them from government so I would ultimately like to see the concentration of power diluted and decentralized. I think it is far too easy for both labor unions (who are nothing more than a corporation which sells labor to other corporations) and other corporations to access power though policy.

There are so many things wrong with this country that I don't know where to begin. First, we need to end the practice of fractional reserve lending. We can have a fiat currency but we cannot have a pretend currency.

We need to stop government spending. If a candidate would come out and announce that we are cutting all government spending across the board by 30% then I would pull a lever with joy. I don't think that it makes sense to debate about what we are going to cut and by how much because nobody will every cut anything that way. Instead lets figure out how much we need to cut to pay our debt down and cut it that far. I don't want a 10 year plan to get to a balanced budget (by my estimate that would mean we would have a debt of about 72 Trillion). I want to start paying it down YESTERDAY.

I want to work to reduce dependence on government. I want a candidate who will make social security voluntary. If you take the amount that I pay into SSI and let me invest that same amount of money I make about 300% more than SSI makes for me in a year, even in this economy. If you are going to use my SSI to subsidize other people then just come out as tell me that I am paying a "social contract" tax or something like that.

As for tax policy, I believe that we need to simplify our tax code. Our tax code has over 3.5 Billion words in it. Want to make the government more efficient? Make it easier to pay taxes. I want to eliminate all loop holes. Agree on a percentage and tax it. Stop exemptions, stop subsidies and just tax one rate across the board. I also want to eliminate capital gains tax. It is taxing me twice.

That's a start.

Mike

That's a pretty good start!

BTW, I found an old article on transfer pricing. I trust Bloomberg isn't "too Liberal" a source?

U.S. Companies Dodge $60 Billion in Taxes With Global Odyssey - Bloomberg

I'm aware of the offshoring of profits I just don't think it changes much. I don't think that our government has a revenue problem, I think we have a spending problem. If you begin taxing these companies they will only pass the taxes onto the consumer. If there is anything we should have learned from the deficit it is that the government is not the best arbiter of our capital. I think that a lot of the functions the federal government undertakes are unnecessary. I believe that most of them are best serviced by the private market. That being said, if they tax "profits" of these companies they will only be taxing the consumer. This kind of gets to my reason for wanting decentralization of power. I have zero desire to hand an extra $60B of taxpayer money to the same entity which has accrued a $14T debt. I would much rather see the consumers keep that money. Solving the debt problem will not come because we give the government an extra $60B. The only way that problem gets solved is by the government spending $60B less.

Mike

Yes I'm familiar with this argument. So we'll agree to disagree.

 

[flacaltenn]

For Flatcaltenn: That's fine but they attribute the income from US sales to the exec office in Ireland. That office was about 17 people, last time I read but it could be different. In any case, all production, sale and profits from lexapro, are realized int he USA - which was my point.

I got kinda interested again in your "example" about Abbott Labs and LexaPro.. Besides the fact that you impugned my southern honor and TOTALLY MANGLED the size of the Irish Operation that Abbott ligitimately runs ---- I can't find an INKLING of any evidence that Abbott DEVELOPED or has ever sold LEXAPRO or it's generic.. Either IN the U.S. or anywhere else in the Milky Way...

Now ain't that odd??? The question really is -- do you have any credibility at all? Or isn't credibility an assett for a psychic of your esteem? OR (my favorite theory) --- is this just a desperate cry from a head case who's misplaced his LEXAPRO???

I guess you missed the part where I explained it's been a while since i'd read about it andadmitted I was mistaken and that it's Forrest Labs that is doing this.

Stranger and stranger.. Let's review... Your original assertion...

See Abbott laboratories.
They make drugs!
They make Lexapro in the USA! (by choice)
Lexapro is sold ONLY in the USA.
Lexapro is made and sold 100% in the USA! (by choice of Abbott)
Lexapro makes BILLIONS in profits!
In the USA ONLY!
Abbott opened a small office in Ireland with 17 people.
Abbott now offhsores ALL the profits from Lexapro to Ireland! (If you don't understand "offshores", find one of those Liberal Elitists and ask them to explain it to you).
Hundreds of Billions of dollars are offshored through loopholes that offer techniques like the "Double Irish" and "Dutch Sandwich".

It's stranger because Forest Labs MAKES LEXAPRO in IRELAND!!! And NONE of your assertions above are even CLOSE to true.. What you remember (maybe) is lefty politicians whining about "transfer pricing" of how the drug is valued when TRANSFERRED to the US for distribution.. My guess is that big stinky storm amounts to about a $100K tax diff in a year. AND Forest Labs uses the Irish Govt guidelines to set the transfer price..

So there's no "made in the USA" Abbott Labs or Forest Labs anti-'murikan conspiracy at all here. Just flippin' stuff out of the ole orifice and seeing if it sticks..

I'd join your thread but you've tired me out just trying to validate ONE of your "stories". No hard feelings.. I'm really fixated on understanding stuff and that stuff wasn't real...

BTW: US taxes isn't an issue for GE because GOVT (Both parties evidentally) serve them up an all you can eat buffet of GREEN TAX CREDITS every year.. And then Bernie Sanders and all those arrogant bastards act like they don't a clue WHY GE doesn't owe domestic taxes. Got nothing to do with off-shoring..

Off-shoring can be a temporary chapter in the history of world manufacturing. We KNOW how to bring American jobs back WITHOUT BRIBING companies to do it. Even the Chinese know that "cheap human labor" is a temporary phase. Manufacturing in THIS CENTURY is gonna center around MORE robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, and advanced logistics.. Foxconn, the Chinese manuf. for Apple is buying 1,000,000 ROBOTS in the next 10 years. Cheap labor my ass. Tax breaks my ass..

Just get the govt OUT OF THE WAY and let start-ups compete. Let them set up 21st century manufacturing plants in the USA

Shove the windmills up your ass and get America some power.. And cut the damn corporate welfare and favoritism for giant bloated corporations...

 

[Texanmike]

I guess you missed the part where I explained it's been a while since i'd read about it andadmitted I was mistaken and that it's Forrest Labs that is doing this.



That's a pretty good start!

BTW, I found an old article on transfer pricing. I trust Bloomberg isn't "too Liberal" a source?

U.S. Companies Dodge $60 Billion in Taxes With Global Odyssey - Bloomberg

I'm aware of the offshoring of profits I just don't think it changes much. I don't think that our government has a revenue problem, I think we have a spending problem. If you begin taxing these companies they will only pass the taxes onto the consumer. If there is anything we should have learned from the deficit it is that the government is not the best arbiter of our capital. I think that a lot of the functions the federal government undertakes are unnecessary. I believe that most of them are best serviced by the private market. That being said, if they tax "profits" of these companies they will only be taxing the consumer. This kind of gets to my reason for wanting decentralization of power. I have zero desire to hand an extra $60B of taxpayer money to the same entity which has accrued a $14T debt. I would much rather see the consumers keep that money. Solving the debt problem will not come because we give the government an extra $60B. The only way that problem gets solved is by the government spending $60B less.

Mike

Yes I'm familiar with this argument. So we'll agree to disagree.

Well we can agree to disagree but there is one thing I don't understand. Why do you disagree with the argument? Here is the simplified (shortened) version of how I arrive at my view.

1. There is a limited amount of capital available at any one time (lets ignore fractional lending for the moment and assume it has a velocity of 0 for just a second)

2. The government is one of the most inefficient entities on the face of the earth.

3. Private industry is accountable to make a profit and therefore must strive for efficienty.

4. Moving money from 3 to 2 only means the country allocates its capital into less efficient means of production which is a bad thing.

Mike

 

[IndependntLogic]

I got kinda interested again in your "example" about Abbott Labs and LexaPro.. Besides the fact that you impugned my southern honor and TOTALLY MANGLED the size of the Irish Operation that Abbott ligitimately runs ---- I can't find an INKLING of any evidence that Abbott DEVELOPED or has ever sold LEXAPRO or it's generic.. Either IN the U.S. or anywhere else in the Milky Way...

Now ain't that odd??? The question really is -- do you have any credibility at all? Or isn't credibility an assett for a psychic of your esteem? OR (my favorite theory) --- is this just a desperate cry from a head case who's misplaced his LEXAPRO???

I guess you missed the part where I explained it's been a while since i'd read about it andadmitted I was mistaken and that it's Forrest Labs that is doing this.

Stranger and stranger.. Let's review... Your original assertion...

See Abbott laboratories.
They make drugs!
They make Lexapro in the USA! (by choice)
Lexapro is sold ONLY in the USA.
Lexapro is made and sold 100% in the USA! (by choice of Abbott)
Lexapro makes BILLIONS in profits!
In the USA ONLY!
Abbott opened a small office in Ireland with 17 people.
Abbott now offhsores ALL the profits from Lexapro to Ireland! (If you don't understand "offshores", find one of those Liberal Elitists and ask them to explain it to you).
Hundreds of Billions of dollars are offshored through loopholes that offer techniques like the "Double Irish" and "Dutch Sandwich".

It's stranger because Forest Labs MAKES LEXAPRO in IRELAND!!! And NONE of your assertions above are even CLOSE to true.. What you remember (maybe) is lefty politicians whining about "transfer pricing" of how the drug is valued when TRANSFERRED to the US for distribution.. My guess is that big stinky storm amounts to about a $100K tax diff in a year. AND Forest Labs uses the Irish Govt guidelines to set the transfer price..

So there's no "made in the USA" Abbott Labs or Forest Labs anti-'murikan conspiracy at all here. Just flippin' stuff out of the ole orifice and seeing if it sticks..

I'd join your thread but you've tired me out just trying to validate ONE of your "stories". No hard feelings.. I'm really fixated on understanding stuff and that stuff wasn't real...

BTW: US taxes isn't an issue for GE because GOVT (Both parties evidentally) serve them up an all you can eat buffet of GREEN TAX CREDITS every year.. And then Bernie Sanders and all those arrogant bastards act like they don't a clue WHY GE doesn't owe domestic taxes. Got nothing to do with off-shoring..

Off-shoring can be a temporary chapter in the history of world manufacturing. We KNOW how to bring American jobs back WITHOUT BRIBING companies to do it. Even the Chinese know that "cheap human labor" is a temporary phase. Manufacturing in THIS CENTURY is gonna center around MORE robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, and advanced logistics.. Foxconn, the Chinese manuf. for Apple is buying 1,000,000 ROBOTS in the next 10 years. Cheap labor my ass. Tax breaks my ass..

Just get the govt OUT OF THE WAY and let start-ups compete. Let them set up 21st century manufacturing plants in the USA

Shove the windmills up your ass and get America some power.. And cut the damn corporate welfare and favoritism for giant bloated corporations...

Hmmm. You're a tad on the hysterical side, aren't you?

U.S. Companies Dodge $60 Billion in Taxes With Global Odyssey - Bloomberg

This was just one example of offshoring profits made solely in America. There are tons of others. I oppose such loopholes.
That was my point.

You may now continue your um, feelings. I recommend you have a beer or something to try to calm down though. Like I said, you seem like you're emotions are getting you a bit hysterical.

 

[flacaltenn]

Yeah -- I get hysterical when people divert important discussions with "examples" that are completely phoney.. But it also bugs me that the Media has almost EVERYONE reciting the same scripture on taxation policy and international trade restrictions being the ONLY TOOLS available for bringing manufacturing back home.. Turns out -- NEITHER of those tools mean a damn thing to solving the problem.. I told you ABOVE what 21st century manufacturing looks like. And now you know that the even the CHINESE understand that their "cheap labor advantage" is temporary..

So what is required?? In no particular order..

1) Get rid of the uncertainty on energy policy. Stop the "green jobs" phoney shit and concentrate on REAL energy solutions like nuclear and hydrogen.

2) Get rid of the uncertainty on financial regs.. Stop Congress from passing EMPTY BLANK CHECK legislation to be filled in painfully slowly by unaccountable bureaucrats.. If you don't understand, and don't know what should be in the law -- hold HEARINGS, get advice -- THEN write a law...

3) Get rid of the uncertainty on taxes.. Doesn't really matter much WHAT you do.. But make it SOON and PERMANENT.

4) Shift all govt corporate grants and subsidies to R&D ONLY.. No one should be paid to produce crap that they'd be building anyway.. Revitalize STRATEGIC research to get us to the 21st Century Manufacturing goal and making energy CHEAP and PLENTIFUL.

5) Abolish the Dept of Ed and use part of the money to fund Science, Tech, Engineering, Math (STEM) programs for K-12.. Solicitate Profession Org help to reach out and try to increase grad rates of AMERICAN KIDS into these professions.. The globalists told us 50 years ago that when we stopped making shoes, we SHOULD BE doing the hard stuff that the rest of the world can't do.. We FORGOT that part of the deal.. And we're losing the advantage quickly to the "3rd world" who are using our university for their own incubation purposes. Give the STEM volunteering kids the no default, low interest loans..

6) Increase the rate of IPOs for folks who MAKE STUFF.. Not for linkedin, not for facebook, but for little guys with ideas on how to knock off the big guys.. Most regulation intended to restrain LARGE CORPORATIONS results in completely smothering NEWER, more innovative competition.. Dispatch waivers on corporate regulations, accounting rules, employment rules, to start-ups... So that the first 10 employee they hire don't have to lawyers and compliance officers... Provide a 5 yr waiver on Fed tax (except payroll). Define a class of investment capital gains for start-ups at a 0 rate.

7) Change the patent laws BACK to a model that is NOT "first to file" which requires CONSTANT legal intervention and documentation.. It should always be "first to invent".

All of that will encourage capital to flow to the right places. It will encourage our grad schools to fill up on AMERICAN students. It will spawn a monsoon of hi-tech startups to end the IPO stagnation in the market. It will HUMBLE the bloated, politically connected LARGE corporations. And it will encourage job growth at ALL levels of expertise..

In the new Global economy, we shouldn't be sitting and whining about cheap labor, or encouraging trade wars. We should be LEADING in raw innovation and the means to produce hard goods. That can't EVER be started under a shroud of class warfare, retributive policy on Foreign investment, and holding all aspects of the economy HOSTAGE to legislative uncertainty.. Congress doesn't LEAD us into jobs. Won't ever happen that way..

 

[IndependntLogic]

Yeah -- I get hysterical when people divert important discussions with "examples" that are completely phoney.. But it also bugs me that the Media has almost EVERYONE reciting the same scripture on taxation policy and international trade restrictions being the ONLY TOOLS available for bringing manufacturing back home.. Turns out -- NEITHER of those tools mean a damn thing to solving the problem.. I told you ABOVE what 21st century manufacturing looks like. And now you know that the even the CHINESE understand that their "cheap labor advantage" is temporary..

So what is required?? In no particular order..

1) Get rid of the uncertainty on energy policy. Stop the "green jobs" phoney shit and concentrate on REAL energy solutions like nuclear and hydrogen.

2) Get rid of the uncertainty on financial regs.. Stop Congress from passing EMPTY BLANK CHECK legislation to be filled in painfully slowly by unaccountable bureaucrats.. If you don't understand, and don't know what should be in the law -- hold HEARINGS, get advice -- THEN write a law...

3) Get rid of the uncertainty on taxes.. Doesn't really matter much WHAT you do.. But make it SOON and PERMANENT.

4) Shift all govt corporate grants and subsidies to R&D ONLY.. No one should be paid to produce crap that they'd be building anyway.. Revitalize STRATEGIC research to get us to the 21st Century Manufacturing goal and making energy CHEAP and PLENTIFUL.

5) Abolish the Dept of Ed and use part of the money to fund Science, Tech, Engineering, Math (STEM) programs for K-12.. Solicitate Profession Org help to reach out and try to increase grad rates of AMERICAN KIDS into these professions.. The globalists told us 50 years ago that when we stopped making shoes, we SHOULD BE doing the hard stuff that the rest of the world can't do.. We FORGOT that part of the deal.. And we're losing the advantage quickly to the "3rd world" who are using our university for their own incubation purposes. Give the STEM volunteering kids the no default, low interest loans..

6) Increase the rate of IPOs for folks who MAKE STUFF.. Not for linkedin, not for facebook, but for little guys with ideas on how to knock off the big guys.. Most regulation intended to restrain LARGE CORPORATIONS results in completely smothering NEWER, more innovative competition.. Dispatch waivers on corporate regulations, accounting rules, employment rules, to start-ups... So that the first 10 employee they hire don't have to lawyers and compliance officers... Provide a 5 yr waiver on Fed tax (except payroll). Define a class of investment capital gains for start-ups at a 0 rate.

7) Change the patent laws BACK to a model that is NOT "first to file" which requires CONSTANT legal intervention and documentation.. It should always be "first to invent".

All of that will encourage capital to flow to the right places. It will encourage our grad schools to fill up on AMERICAN students. It will spawn a monsoon of hi-tech startups to end the IPO stagnation in the market. It will HUMBLE the bloated, politically connected LARGE corporations. And it will encourage job growth at ALL levels of expertise..

In the new Global economy, we shouldn't be sitting and whining about cheap labor, or encouraging trade wars. We should be LEADING in raw innovation and the means to produce hard goods. That can't EVER be started under a shroud of class warfare, retributive policy on Foreign investment, and holding all aspects of the economy HOSTAGE to legislative uncertainty.. Congress doesn't LEAD us into jobs. Won't ever happen that way..

Well congrats! You're posting about issues and such. Nice to see.

1. I disagree with you on China. They have over 200,000,000 people living on less than $1 a day. The equivalent of every adult in America lives on less than a dollar a day. This is not temporary and China has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. It is ironic that whackjobs like Michele Bachmann use them as an example. Who owns virtually every large business in China? The ministers of the interior, of commerce and so on. Business is LITERALLY owned by government.
Remember the Olympics in Beijing? Notice what everyone was wearing?
I'm all for nuke energy and I hate the LibDems fight against what is statistically, the safest form of energy we have. However, I do believe the NRC needs to be strengthened. There is a compromise there. Think of the Yankee reactor in the NE...
i don't know enough about hydrogen to make an intelligent comment on it but I have a client in Germany who has a BMW 7 series that is hydrogen something or other. He only brings up that car.... every time we talk.
2. So what is your opinion of GLB? Dodd-Frank? You want the banks to keep owning insurance and stock borkerages?
3. Okay.
4. I agree completely.
5. Well based on what the teachers I know say, I think NCLB is the worst thing ever to happen to education. We need radical changes, that's for sure.
6. That's pretty innovative but of course IPO's are investor driven. Still, we all have our pipe dreams, eh? Mine is a viable 3rd party...
7. Most of my work is done with IP attorneys. So other than filing, how do you prove who was first to invent?

Again, I understand we're fighting cheap labor and that's not a temporary problem. India and China have millions of people who will be cheap for a loooong time. But we don't need to make it even better and more advantageous to send jobs overseas. I'd really like to see the loopholes that were originally designed for companies moving interstate, closed.

 

[flacaltenn]

<<IndependentLogic>>

I disagree with you on China. They have over 200,000,000 people living on less than $1 a day. The equivalent of every adult in America lives on less than a dollar a day. This is not temporary and China has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. It is ironic that whackjobs like Michele Bachmann use them as an example. Who owns virtually every large business in China? The ministers of the interior, of commerce and so on. Business is LITERALLY owned by government.
Remember the Olympics in Beijing? Notice what everyone was wearing?

Again, I understand we're fighting cheap labor and that's not a temporary problem. India and China have millions of people who will be cheap for a loooong time. But we don't need to make it even better and more advantageous to send jobs overseas. I'd really like to see the loopholes that were originally designed for companies moving interstate, closed.

Now for a psychic, you're not getting the picture of the future here.. Lemme 'splain again.. You've BEEN TOLD that cheap labor is an inmutable force and will remain so.. That's not true. It's actually doomed.

Remember I told you that FoxConn is NOT hiring MILLIONS of Chinese workers, they are gonna move to what manufacturing SHOULD look like in this century. They will invest in a virtual ARMY of robots for assembling Apple's crap.. Why are they doing this??

FoxConn Robots!

Foxconn Technology Group held a hip-hop party at the headquarter in Longhua Shenzhen last Friday night, on which Chairman Terry Gou disclosed, Foxconn is making efforts to increase its robot workforce on production line to replace non-technical workers. Foxconn currently has 10000 robots and plans to increase the number to 30000 next year. The company also announced it plans to have one million robots in three years.
The robots that have been put into operation on the production line is &#8220;Foxconn Shenzhen No. 1&#8221; that is independently developed by the company in 2006.

&#8220;On the Foxconn&#8217;s flow lines, many simple and repeated works, such as repeated clicks of one button, used to be done by workers. Now these works are all done by robots with high efficiency and controllability,&#8221; an insider of Foxconn said.

Foxconn currently has nearly 1.2 million employees, of which over 1 million are from the mainland.

In that article, the owner says that QUALITY and CONSISTENTCY are the biggest concerns. Also the level of the tasks is actually DEMEANING to any human being (IMHO). BTW -- the reason I'm on USMB at all hours is that I am personally meeting with Chinese counterparts -- particularly in the Chinese "Silicon Valleys" like ShenZhen.. 3 of my clients have production facilities over there.

Second piece of evidence. MasterLock just brought back a factory line from China for similiar reasons. They realized that robotics, automation, artificial intelligience, materials, logistics COULD beat out raw "cheap labor".. So THEY have set up a 21st Century manuf. plant in Milwaukee. It WILL be done.
Lots of captains of industry are tired of sending their IP and fab drawings 1/2 way around the world to have the work stolen, deal with volatile workers, and find quality of their product suffering from having such a long screwdriver to fix manufacturing problems. That's why my ass is in a plane seat so often between here and Shenzheng.. Got it now?

Has NOTHING to do with Chinese governance or how many peons are on the streets of Calcutta. That's old thinking. Just like the econ books are old thinking because they haven't caught up to the concept of how America works without a manufacturing sector. FORGET what you're peppered with from the media. The answer to American jobs is to regain and HOLD tech leadership -- especially in manufacturing.

Your concept of hobbling American companies from going overseas is also antiquated. You cannot serve Europe or India or S.E. Asia with adequate sales, marketing, and manufacturing for heavy goods sitting in Burbank. A large part of the job migration is the realization that markets need to be served LOCALLY. After all -- we know what a hassle is it to sell or deal to a govt. You need to be closer.
We should be thankful that American companies are EXPANDING into a world market and we should encourage that profit to come BACK to USA by repatriating the profit with a lower corporate tax on foreign earnings -- not PUNISH it. After all -- those companies are operating under the rules and taxes of the HOST COUNTRY -- not Washington. Just like BMW, Sony, and Hyundai do here..

More later about patents, energy, education and the PREREQUISITES to getting jobs back. We first have to correct common misconceptions about how manufacturing is gonna look in 10 years or so...

 

[IndependntLogic]

<<IndependentLogic>>

I disagree with you on China. They have over 200,000,000 people living on less than $1 a day. The equivalent of every adult in America lives on less than a dollar a day. This is not temporary and China has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. It is ironic that whackjobs like Michele Bachmann use them as an example. Who owns virtually every large business in China? The ministers of the interior, of commerce and so on. Business is LITERALLY owned by government.
Remember the Olympics in Beijing? Notice what everyone was wearing?

Again, I understand we're fighting cheap labor and that's not a temporary problem. India and China have millions of people who will be cheap for a loooong time. But we don't need to make it even better and more advantageous to send jobs overseas. I'd really like to see the loopholes that were originally designed for companies moving interstate, closed.

Now for a psychic, you're not getting the picture of the future here.. Lemme 'splain again.. You've BEEN TOLD that cheap labor is an inmutable force and will remain so.. That's not true. It's actually doomed.

Remember I told you that FoxConn is NOT hiring MILLIONS of Chinese workers, they are gonna move to what manufacturing SHOULD look like in this century. They will invest in a virtual ARMY of robots for assembling Apple's crap.. Why are they doing this??

FoxConn Robots!

Foxconn Technology Group held a hip-hop party at the headquarter in Longhua Shenzhen last Friday night, on which Chairman Terry Gou disclosed, Foxconn is making efforts to increase its robot workforce on production line to replace non-technical workers. Foxconn currently has 10000 robots and plans to increase the number to 30000 next year. The company also announced it plans to have one million robots in three years.
The robots that have been put into operation on the production line is “Foxconn Shenzhen No. 1” that is independently developed by the company in 2006.

“On the Foxconn’s flow lines, many simple and repeated works, such as repeated clicks of one button, used to be done by workers. Now these works are all done by robots with high efficiency and controllability,” an insider of Foxconn said.

Foxconn currently has nearly 1.2 million employees, of which over 1 million are from the mainland.

In that article, the owner says that QUALITY and CONSISTENTCY are the biggest concerns. Also the level of the tasks is actually DEMEANING to any human being (IMHO). BTW -- the reason I'm on USMB at all hours is that I am personally meeting with Chinese counterparts -- particularly in the Chinese "Silicon Valleys" like ShenZhen.. 3 of my clients have production facilities over there.

Second piece of evidence. MasterLock just brought back a factory line from China for similiar reasons. They realized that robotics, automation, artificial intelligience, materials, logistics COULD beat out raw "cheap labor".. So THEY have set up a 21st Century manuf. plant in Milwaukee. It WILL be done.
Lots of captains of industry are tired of sending their IP and fab drawings 1/2 way around the world to have the work stolen, deal with volatile workers, and find quality of their product suffering from having such a long screwdriver to fix manufacturing problems. That's why my ass is in a plane seat so often between here and Shenzheng.. Got it now?

Has NOTHING to do with Chinese governance or how many peons are on the streets of Calcutta. That's old thinking. Just like the econ books are old thinking because they haven't caught up to the concept of how America works without a manufacturing sector. FORGET what you're peppered with from the media. The answer to American jobs is to regain and HOLD tech leadership -- especially in manufacturing.

Your concept of hobbling American companies from going overseas is also antiquated. You cannot serve Europe or India or S.E. Asia with adequate sales, marketing, and manufacturing for heavy goods sitting in Burbank. A large part of the job migration is the realization that markets need to be served LOCALLY. After all -- we know what a hassle is it to sell or deal to a govt. You need to be closer.
We should be thankful that American companies are EXPANDING into a world market and we should encourage that profit to come BACK to USA by repatriating the profit with a lower corporate tax on foreign earnings -- not PUNISH it. After all -- those companies are operating under the rules and taxes of the HOST COUNTRY -- not Washington. Just like BMW, Sony, and Hyundai do here..

More later about patents, energy, education and the PREREQUISITES to getting jobs back. We first have to correct common misconceptions about how manufacturing is gonna look in 10 years or so...

I disagree with much of what you say. I have clients here, in India and in China. Show me a robot who can write a patent or review M&A docs. Hmmm. That's trickier. You speak as if manufacturing jobs are the only thing being outsourced and white-collar is immune. You're wrong.
But in any case, I return fire when fired upon. When the exchange becomes more civil, I try to maintian that and engage in an elevated level of discussion. When i am wrong about something I admit it.
Once a discussion becomes more civil and intelligent, I can exchange ideas without insult. I can even acknowledge and show respect for opinions - even if they differ from my own.
Apparently, you cannot.
Fine. So be it. If you want a bicker-fest, there are plenty here who will accomodate you.

 

[flacaltenn]

Say WHAT?? 4 paragraphs chastizing me for "bickering" and being "uncivil"? After the potshots you took about southerners and "whackjobs"?

You want to bail -- then bail.. You want to change the subject of your OP -- change it..

I was talking about manufacturing jobs and you want to swerve to robots managing patents.. Millions of Chinese farmers don't seem to be a threat to lawyers. But maybe they're super-sensitive about their competence to compete..

Don't think I saw much defending of your desire to try and HALT globalization with punitive policy and taxes. So at that rate -- we would never get to what AMERICA SHOULD be doing to keep our lead in the global economy....

 

[GoneBezerk]

You're an idiot on many levels, especially claiming "3" policies then only listing 2.

Math must be a major problem for your tiny brain.

Oh, Obamacare and other welfare programs will gut the Federal Govt leaving us in economic peril and national security doom, idiot.

I laugh when frauds like you claim to have supported Reagan, etc.....just shut the fuck up.

I am an Independent. I voted for Reagan twice and Bush (the good one, not the idiot) twice. I strongly disapprove of a LOT Obama and the Dems have been up to over the years. So it's a matter of the lesser of two (or three) evils.

I really don't see much difference between Romney and Obama so for me, it comes down to 3 policy positions.

1. Too Big to Fail. Sure, the Dems contributed to the housing crisis. No dispute there. But Gramm-Leach-Bliley is what made the banks too big to fail. It undid Glass-Steagel and the very reasons we were given that AIG etc... couldn't be allowed to fail. The Dems tried to pass a stronger bill but the Repubs watered down Dodd-Frank etc... The Dems are again talking about strengthening DF / The Volcker Rule. The Dems and Romney have sworn to get rid of Dodd-Frank and replace it with.... nothing. WTF???

2. Offshoring Jobs and Revenues. The law that was originally passed to give legitimate deductions for a company moving from say, Ohio to SC, has given tremendous tax advantages for sending jobs overseas. The Dems want to clarify it and limit it to domestic moves only. The Repubs oppose this. Same with offshoring revenues. Right now, a product made in the USA, sold ONLY in the USA and ONLY to Americans, results in zero taxes through loopholes that allow techniques like the "Double Irish". The Dems want to close that loophole. Again, the Repubs oppose this.

So this is a thread about policy positions. Again, the extreme whackjobs on the Left or Right will just sling insults because they're so weak and lacking in knowledge on the issues, it's all they have. I'd love to see some decent posts on how policy positions influence voting decisions. I wish there were more people who think that way but even a few would be a refreshing change of pace from the usual.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Say WHAT?? 4 paragraphs chastizing me for "bickering" and being "uncivil"? After the potshots you took about southerners and "whackjobs"?

You want to bail -- then bail.. You want to change the subject of your OP -- change it..

I was talking about manufacturing jobs and you want to swerve to robots managing patents.. Millions of Chinese farmers don't seem to be a threat to lawyers. But maybe they're super-sensitive about their competence to compete..

Don't think I saw much defending of your desire to try and HALT globalization with punitive policy and taxes. So at that rate -- we would never get to what AMERICA SHOULD be doing to keep our lead in the global economy....

Let me repeat: I made a post. Someone ELSE came in guns blazing and I returned fire - including poking fun that HE was a Southerner. Then you got all bent out of shape and came in firing too. So I had some fun. Conversation got a bit better. Fine. But you seemed to still be holding onto some feelings. So there it is. You still seem upset. Do try to calm down.

I was talking about off-shoring jobs in post number one. You were the one who changed the subject, not me. You seem to think all the jobs off-shored at manufacturing. That hasn't even been the majority of jobs for almost 20 years now. So your manufacturing argument doesn't hold water, as applied to the OP = that companies are getting tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. You also create a strawman with the projection that I have ever said we should do anything about globalization. It is inevitible. So do try to keep up. The ONLY thing I discussed was that we actually reward comapnies for shipping jobs overseas. That was a DEM sponsored bill, btw. But it was passed so long ago, they hadn't anticpated the unintended consquences.
So all your arguments are strawmen. it's that simple.

Let me make the point of the OP again:

I am for closing the loopholes that reward companies for offshoring jobs.
Is that simple enough?

I made other points but your inability to grasp just that one, make me reluctant to reiterate those just now.

 

[ecinicola]

my gosh, if people can't see what this OBama is doing to all of us and to this country, then that is just pathetic. I am an independent also, I sure didn't vote for a Muslim in the last election and I won't vote for him in this one. I may not like Romney that well, but I do know we have to get Obama outta office, or all our livelyhoods will be in the tank.

 

[IndependntLogic]

my gosh, if people can't see what this OBama is doing to all of us and to this country, then that is just pathetic. I am an independent also, I sure didn't vote for a Muslim in the last election and I won't vote for him in this one. I may not like Romney that well, but I do know we have to get Obama outta office, or all our livelyhoods will be in the tank.

This is truly entertaining. Obama is a Muslim, eh? Magnificent!