The Pledge of Allegiance

[Psychoblues]

jimnyc, I thought better of you than that. Do you encourage debate or do you have a preplanned agenda? If the latter is your bent then I would suggest that your self advertised "Freedom of Speech" award was prematurely given.

If you want "comedy", I can give you that. I can be and very much am "creative". I would rather, in this case, be serious about our American dilemma and discuss reasonable insight and stategies to correct this dilemma. Every problem is an opportunity. I hope you view this likewise.

Should you wish to "ban" me then a simple pm will accomplish that objective. I certainly don't want to insist on being in a place where I'm not wanted.

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Moi
I don't need to answer that question because you did not state where you think those words appear in a document upon which this country was founded

And he still has not provided an answer.

 

[Psychoblues]

I consider the question so elementary that it doesn't warrant documentary response from me in this venue. Are you simply implying that there is no concept such as a separation of church and state or are you arguing that it is wrong in your opinion? Either way, the Roy Jones monument was removed from the state courthouse of Alabama. What was that all about?

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Moi
I don't need to answer that question because you did not state where you think those words appear in a document upon which this country was founded.

And he still has not provided an answer.

 

[Psychoblues]

You insist and go on and on. So I suppose you believe there to be no separation of church and state in the US of A? You are sadly mistaken. I asked a question as well but you ignored it. What about that Roy Jones demagogery in Alabama all about?

 

[jimnyc]

jimnyc, I thought better of you than that. Do you encourage debate or do you have a preplanned agenda? If the latter is your bent then I would suggest that your self advertised "Freedom of Speech" award was prematurely given.

Where was your freedom of speech limited? I find your refusal to answer the question posed to you several times funny, nothing more!

If you want "comedy", I can give you that. I can be and very much am "creative". I would rather, in this case, be serious about our American dilemma and discuss reasonable insight and stategies to correct this dilemma. Every problem is an opportunity. I hope you view this likewise.

If you want to be serious, how about you just answer the question that was asked of you. Wasn't it YOU who demanded an answer the second time around to "Then WHY, may I ask, was there ever any reference to any separation of "Church and State"?"?

Moi has provided a few documents that utilize "God", "Lord", "Creator" or "Divine" - but yet you fail to document where our founding fathers stated "Separation of church and state". Why is that?

Should you wish to "ban" me then a simple pm will accomplish that objective. I certainly don't want to insist on being in a place where I'm not wanted.

Why would I ban you? Your geriatric induced rants aren't harming anyone.

And you still haven't answered the question. I'm willing to bet the "shrub" can tell me why you fail to produce the documents where our founding fathers stated the "separation of church and state" - because it was never written. It's your interpretation, that's all. But, there were in fact references to "God" and "Lord" in their documents. If they wanted this separation so badly, why did they make references to God an yet never speak the words you THINK you read?

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Psychoblues
We, whether you want to recognize it or not, are a nation with a government that chose in it's very beginning to be devoid of religion.

This is a statement that you made, along with the words separation of "chuch and state". Moi challanged you on that and I agreed by pointing out you have not provided an answer. Then you bring up a current ruling in Alabama, but that still gives no evidence to your original claim the government was founded to be devoid of religion.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Doesn't the whole seperation of 'church and state' come from a realization that spirituality should be a personal thing?

How often in other countries, even old england before the european settlers arrived, have we seen rulers (kings, queens, etc) make laws and govern the people with so called 'edicts of god'. I think the founding fathers of this country had had enough of kings and queens calling themselves the mouthpiece of god as if they were holier than thou.

So, while this country may have been founded on morals based in christianity or catholicism, It was created to keep those morals out of government proclomations.

 

[mwbuccs]

"one nation under Jesus Christ is what it needs to be chnged to."

this is a Christians nation.

JEWS GO HOME.

 

[Joan]

My friend, you are a bigot!! Was Jesus Christ not a Jew himself? "Under God" is where it should be!

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by MtnBiker
This is a statement that you made, along with the words separation of "chuch and state". Moi challanged you on that and I agreed by pointing out you have not provided an answer. Then you bring up a current ruling in Alabama, but that still gives no evidence to your original claim the government was founded to be devoid of religion.

Thanks MtnBiker, you are certainly on point here. I would love to see what authority anyone claims that this country is supposed to be "devoid" of religion.

If I may, "When in the course of human events it become necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal stations to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them. A decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they declare the causes which compel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with..."

Oh Psycho, have you got that one?

Or, possibly, this one:

"And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God."


Or this one still:


"but not without resorting once more to the benign Parent of the Human Race in humble supplication that, since He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquillity, and dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of government for the security of their union and the advancement of their happiness, so His divine blessing may be equally conspicuous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations, and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend..."

I could go on..perhaps with that little law, written by our founding fathers in 1789 which sets up our judiciary and requires them to swear before GOD.

And, yet, I feel no need to go on for my point is now proven that the founding fathers clearly had no intention of making the country "devoid" of religion.

 

[acludem]

Ok...where to start. First off, the idea of separation of church and state has been in this country since it was founded. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison led the fight in Virginia to eliminate any favors for the Christian religion. As far as the religious references in documents, yes the Declaration of Independence contains many religious references. When one is trying to stir up support for a rebellion, one must use strong propaganda, and that is what Jefferson did. This is not now, nor has it ever been a "Christian nation". There have been Jews here for well over 200 years, Catholics and Protestants lived side by side in colonial times. The first amendment was specifically designed to keep government out of religion and religion out of government. Dwight Eisenhower forced the change in the pledge through a congress terrified by McCarthyism. Theodore Roosevelt tried to remove In God We Trust from American coins both because he believed it was unconstitutional (the constitution makes NO reference to anything religious except for the date "in the year of our lord") and also because it was sacriligious. Our country need not be devoid of religion, our government does.