The plan going forward.

[OCA]

I invite all readers to conduct their own research into the chinese slave labor problem.

laogai

Well one case of a forced labor camp on the first page and some curtailed freedom issues which noone is denying happens there but they are quickly becoming an economic giant and we risk damage economically by isolating them, which isolation won't work anyway.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Stop sidestepping, you are the one railing against economic investment on Chins based on slave labor abuses, the burden of proof lies with you.

SO that's a big "No, I have no proof it's on the decline".

 

[OCA]

SO that's a big "No, I have no proof it's on the decline".

RWA why do you obfuscate so? Mr. big time debater can't even offer up proof to back his failed positions. Instead he hems, haws and crow hops, you are a joke.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

RWA why do you obfuscate so? Mr. big time debater can't even offer up proof to back his failed positions. Instead he hems, haws and crow hops, you are a joke.

dude. Just read. It's a bad situation.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

SO that's a big "No, I have no proof it's on the decline".

SO that's a big "No, I have no proof it's on the rise".

 

[rtwngAvngr]

SO that's a big "No, I have no proof it's on the rise".

It doesn't have to be escalating to warrant concern.

 

[jillian]

RWA doesn't understand economics and the power of capitalism to change nations, its useless to argue with him for his utopia knows no reality.

RWA endeavors to keep the people of China not only under a totalitarian authority but also to be economically dependent upon the state, he really doesn't give a rats ass about the Chinese people and really by his protectionist policies doesn't give a rats ass about America either.

Stop the charade RWA, we are onto you.

His argument is also kind of vacuous when one considers that China holds most of our debt. This gives them huge economic power over us, not the other way around. All they have to do is call in the debt... in Euros... and we're thrown into huge economic turmoil.

Doesn't give us much leverage... and it's a silly position to take.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

His argument is also kind of vacuous when one considers that China holds most of our debt. This gives them huge economic power over us, not the other way around. All they have to do is call in the debt... in Euros... and we're thrown into huge economic turmoil.

Doesn't give us much leverage... and it's a silly position to take.

This is a power we gave them, and we can take it back.

Why are you too cowardly to engage me directly?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

It doesn't have to be escalating to warrant concern.

Your plan does not guarantee it won't cause escalation. You have no model. Just your pipe dream, and South Africa.

 

[Said1]

I was looking for another related article about people working in different 'zones' in China, but couldn't find it. This is kind of interesting http://pubs.acs.org/cen/business/84/8444bus1.html More about big business owners though.......at bit off topic, sorry friendgirl, Glock.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Ahh, the South Africa analogy. After posting the same thread about four times, RWA has discovered that South Africa changed their policies after we embargoed them. A few minor points (which will be ignored/forgotten until the next China thread):

* South Africa is a democracy. The unsavory nations you have in mind are not. In a democracy, punishing the citizens of another country *may* get them to choose different leaders. In a dictatorship, they couldn't care less. You will NOT get dictators to change their positions by hurting their people, you will only give them a great scapegoat. They will succeed in pinning ALL their woes on us, even the ones they created for themselves. This explains why embargoing South Africa got the desired result, while embargoing Cuba, Iraq, North Korea, etc. didn't.

* South Africa: 47 million, if wikipedia is correct. China: 1.3 billion. Russia: 144 million. Africa, the middle east, much of south america, etc.? Well over a billion. You're talking about embargoing over half the earth's population, compared to 47 million.

* None of our remaining trading partners will cease trading with these countries. Our companies will flock to them. Now we've got to embargo them, too, I suppose.

* China can dump a trillion dollars, which will set off panic selling of dollars in other banks. Japan has nearly a trillion, etc. The value of the dollar would go way down, the value of whatever is purchased with those dollars (probably natural resources, iron, gold, gasoline, etc.) would go up.

So let's see...massive tariff wars all around combined with hyperinflation and mass unemployment. That may sound great to some, but personally I'd like to avoid a repeat of 1920's~40's Germany, on a larger scale, this time with deadlier weapons. That's just me though.

Just curious RWA, are you from north of the mason-dixon line?

 

[Said1]

Was South Africa a democratic state during the arms embargo, or are you speaking about something more recent, from the 80's say?

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

I wasn't aware of any arms embargo against south africa, I think RWA and I are both referring to their dropping of apartheid in response to sanctions. They've been a democracy for a good while now (only for whites until recently of course).

 

[José]

Just a small correction, Baron.

A democracy only for whites is no democracy at all.

There is an appropriate term in political science to designate this kind of political system, ethnocracy.

Ethnocracy is a system where under the external democratic facade a dominant ethnic group seizes the political control of the state and uses it to implement non-democratic measures to discriminate other ethnic groups and/or give the dominant people an unfair advantage.

Another example of a white ethnocracy is the US until the civil rights movement.

Unfortunately, the modern world still has to deal with this anachronic kind of state.

The most prominent ethnocracies are Sri Lanka, Nagorno-Karabakh, some of the Baltic States and the most famous and dysfunctional of all, Israel.

Part of the confusion arises from the fact that history books continue to call ancient Athens "the first democracy in the world".

The definition may be good enough for historians but it makes political scientists bang their heads against the wall in desperation.

Athens was in fact a greek ethnocracy with classist and sexist elements thrown in for good measure.

No offence Mr. OCA : )

This is not just some academic distinction. If we start calling democracies all states that have some form of representative government, the term will soon become meaningless.

If everything is democracy, democracy is nothing at all.

Let's show the poor political system some respect...

Using the term democracy to designate a racist state only leads to the misunderstanding between you and Said.

But your point about SA is absolutely right.

The whites felt the pressure and elected De Klerk who oversaw the dismantling of the white ethnocracy and the transition to the new democratic state.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Ahh, the South Africa analogy. After posting the same thread about four times, RWA has discovered that South Africa changed their policies after we embargoed them.

Exactly. That's my point. Trade sanctions work. all you brainwashed globalists are acting like somehow trade sanctions are off the table for evermore. That's nonsense and it's just the new world order crowd corroding public opinion with lies and wrong conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Sanctions
After much debate, by the late 1980s the United States, the United Kingdom, and 23 other nations had passed laws [9] placing various trade sanctions on South Africa. A divestment movement in many countries was similarly widespread, with individual cities and provinces around the world implementing various laws and local regulations [10] forbidding registered corporations under their jurisdiction from doing business with South African firms, factories, or banks.

 

[glockmail]

Control over access to our markets is a huge control. Don't be ridiculous.

How is the totalitarian government hurt when they take a piece of all action, control everything and do whatever they want?

there are absolutley zero human rights improvements. This theory is simply a bogus and unrealistic assertion.

I think that your liberal agenda is to think every country should be like Sweden. Sorry pal, but the reality is much different.

 

[Said1]

I think that your liberal agenda is to think every country should be like Sweden. Sorry pal, but the reality is much different.

You're right, the reality of China is much different. However, Post-Fordism somehow failed in Japan, too - maybe they should have hoarded all the money. :huh:

 

[Said1]

I wasn't aware of any arms embargo against south africa, I think RWA and I are both referring to their dropping of apartheid in response to sanctions. They've been a democracy for a good while now (only for whites until recently of course).

I think it was in '63 or '77 - maybe there were two.

 

[glockmail]

You're right, the reality of China is much different. However, Post-Fordism somehow failed in Japan, too - maybe they should have hoarded all the money. :huh:

I'm not familiar with that term. Please enlighten me.

 

[Said1]

I'm not familiar with that term. Please enlighten me.

Look it up yoself, friendgirl.