The People vs. Unions: Cash, Credit and Corruption

[iamwhatiseem]

Although some of this is true, your response does not contradict my statement. ALL ECONOMIC ACTIVITY begins and ends with labor.

Do you even understand that a dollar's only value is as a claim on labor?

When labor has had enough, they will assert this fact.

Sorry, that is how it used to be 30 years ago.
The service industry is where the money is at. Sad, but true.
I know because I am in manufacturing. I run a decent sized printing company, and as a printing company we print for all walks of industry - therefore I have unique exposure to lots of industries that few people have.
Manufacturing, particularly small manufacturing...they are all on the race to zero...as in zero profitability. People don't value production anymore. You can make a ton more money SELLING a product than actually making it...by a LOOONG shot.

I happen to agree. Capitalism has reduced labor to a mere commodity--as predicted by Marx. That is the Modern Problem in economics. And you should always remember that economics is a social science.

Ahh...but here we depart again.
It isn't capitalism that has killed labor - nay, it is consumerism that couldn't give a rats ass about who made what they buy. Evidence? Just look at the WalMart thread that is popular right now.
When millions and millions of consumers consistently choose a lower price over just about everything else - this leaves absolutely no choice by manufactures and retailers alike to cut costs anywhere they can. And as an employer, I can tell you the fastest and by far the most effective means to cut cost...is...you guessed it - labor.
Don't blame the fat guy smoking the cigar - he is only the symptom. The disease is the common citizen who sh*ts in his/her own backyard by buying the cheapest product over and over and over and over and...

 

[kiwiman127]

Sorry, that is how it used to be 30 years ago.
The service industry is where the money is at. Sad, but true.
I know because I am in manufacturing. I run a decent sized printing company, and as a printing company we print for all walks of industry - therefore I have unique exposure to lots of industries that few people have.
Manufacturing, particularly small manufacturing...they are all on the race to zero...as in zero profitability. People don't value production anymore. You can make a ton more money SELLING a product than actually making it...by a LOOONG shot.

I happen to agree. Capitalism has reduced labor to a mere commodity--as predicted by Marx. That is the Modern Problem in economics. And you should always remember that economics is a social science.

Ahh...but here we depart again.
It isn't capitalism that has killed labor - nay, it is consumerism that couldn't give a rats ass about who made what they buy. Evidence? Just look at the WalMart thread that is popular right now.
When millions and millions of consumers consistently choose a lower price over just about everything else - this leaves absolutely no choice by manufactures and retailers alike to cut costs anywhere they can. And as an employer, I can tell you the fastest and by far the most effective means to cut cost...is...you guessed it - labor.
Don't blame the fat guy smoking the cigar - he is only the symptom. The disease is the common citizen who sh*ts in his/her own backyard by buying the cheapest product over and over and over and over and...

I can agree to a point. My question is,,who drives consumerism? It's the fat guy smoking the cigar!

 

[Freemason9]

Sorry, that is how it used to be 30 years ago.
The service industry is where the money is at. Sad, but true.
I know because I am in manufacturing. I run a decent sized printing company, and as a printing company we print for all walks of industry - therefore I have unique exposure to lots of industries that few people have.
Manufacturing, particularly small manufacturing...they are all on the race to zero...as in zero profitability. People don't value production anymore. You can make a ton more money SELLING a product than actually making it...by a LOOONG shot.

I happen to agree. Capitalism has reduced labor to a mere commodity--as predicted by Marx. That is the Modern Problem in economics. And you should always remember that economics is a social science.

Ahh...but here we depart again.
It isn't capitalism that has killed labor - nay, it is consumerism that couldn't give a rats ass about who made what they buy. Evidence? Just look at the WalMart thread that is popular right now.
When millions and millions of consumers consistently choose a lower price over just about everything else - this leaves absolutely no choice by manufactures and retailers alike to cut costs anywhere they can. And as an employer, I can tell you the fastest and by far the most effective means to cut cost...is...you guessed it - labor.
Don't blame the fat guy smoking the cigar - he is only the symptom. The disease is the common citizen who sh*ts in his/her own backyard by buying the cheapest product over and over and over and over and...

We could go back and forth eternally on this one, my friend.

I suggest that the economic system of capitalism creates the consumer society. As you may know, capitalism absolutely requires constant and infinite growth to maintain profit growth. This growth requirement dooms any human philosophy that may be more aligned with sustainability concepts and matters of the spirit.

I believe that capitalism is a primary cause of religious disaffiliation. I'm not commenting on the value (or dangers) associated with religion--however, inattention to human spiritual issues may be problematic in the long term.

I do believe that capitalism is a modern version of a primitive economic system of feudalism.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I happen to agree. Capitalism has reduced labor to a mere commodity--as predicted by Marx. That is the Modern Problem in economics. And you should always remember that economics is a social science.

Ahh...but here we depart again.
It isn't capitalism that has killed labor - nay, it is consumerism that couldn't give a rats ass about who made what they buy. Evidence? Just look at the WalMart thread that is popular right now.
When millions and millions of consumers consistently choose a lower price over just about everything else - this leaves absolutely no choice by manufactures and retailers alike to cut costs anywhere they can. And as an employer, I can tell you the fastest and by far the most effective means to cut cost...is...you guessed it - labor.
Don't blame the fat guy smoking the cigar - he is only the symptom. The disease is the common citizen who sh*ts in his/her own backyard by buying the cheapest product over and over and over and over and...

I can agree to a point. My question is,,who drives consumerism? It's the fat guy smoking the cigar!

Oh hell no...it is personal greed and zero patience that drives excessive consumerism.
Consumers have all the power - they just don't use it and probably never will.
Nothing is more funny (albeit tragic) than seeing people openly buying by low price - but then complain about high unemployment and low wages.(like in the WalMart thread)

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I happen to agree. Capitalism has reduced labor to a mere commodity--as predicted by Marx. That is the Modern Problem in economics. And you should always remember that economics is a social science.

Ahh...but here we depart again.
It isn't capitalism that has killed labor - nay, it is consumerism that couldn't give a rats ass about who made what they buy. Evidence? Just look at the WalMart thread that is popular right now.
When millions and millions of consumers consistently choose a lower price over just about everything else - this leaves absolutely no choice by manufactures and retailers alike to cut costs anywhere they can. And as an employer, I can tell you the fastest and by far the most effective means to cut cost...is...you guessed it - labor.
Don't blame the fat guy smoking the cigar - he is only the symptom. The disease is the common citizen who sh*ts in his/her own backyard by buying the cheapest product over and over and over and over and...

We could go back and forth eternally on this one, my friend.

I suggest that the economic system of capitalism creates the consumer society. As you may know, capitalism absolutely requires constant and infinite growth to maintain profit growth. This growth requirement dooms any human philosophy that may be more aligned with sustainability concepts and matters of the spirit.

I believe that capitalism is a primary cause of religious disaffiliation. I'm not commenting on the value (or dangers) associated with religion--however, inattention to human spiritual issues may be problematic in the long term.

I do believe that capitalism is a modern version of a primitive economic system of feudalism.

Ahh...but at the same time, there has not yet been a single other form of society that produces a higher quality of life for the common man - than capitalism. In contrast, it is those societies that are the farthest from a free enterprise system that has the worst quality of life for the common man.
(And yes I am aware this is a close quote from Milton Friedman, but not intentionally...he just happen to be right when he said it too)

 

[kiwiman127]

Ahh...but here we depart again.
It isn't capitalism that has killed labor - nay, it is consumerism that couldn't give a rats ass about who made what they buy. Evidence? Just look at the WalMart thread that is popular right now.
When millions and millions of consumers consistently choose a lower price over just about everything else - this leaves absolutely no choice by manufactures and retailers alike to cut costs anywhere they can. And as an employer, I can tell you the fastest and by far the most effective means to cut cost...is...you guessed it - labor.
Don't blame the fat guy smoking the cigar - he is only the symptom. The disease is the common citizen who sh*ts in his/her own backyard by buying the cheapest product over and over and over and over and...

I can agree to a point. My question is,,who drives consumerism? It's the fat guy smoking the cigar!

Oh hell no...it is personal greed and zero patience that drives excessive consumerism.
Consumers have all the power - they just don't use it and probably never will.
Nothing is more funny (albeit tragic) than seeing people openly buying by low price - but then complain about high unemployment and low wages.(like in the WalMart thread)

I used to be the far guy smoking the cigar. I'd put a carrot on the end of a string (tempting advertising) and lure them into my den (consumerism) and take their dough. I was evil.

 

[kwc57]

Yes, we should all be happy working for whatever pittance the Plutocrats want to throw us...

I'm 55, never worked for a union shop and make a damned nice living. But then I relied on myself to get an education and bust my ass instead of allowing others to bargain for me and protect the deadbeats who need to be fired. Never met a plutocrat or received a pittance. Maybe you're hanging out in the wrong places.

 

[Freemason9]

Ahh...but at the same time, there has not yet been a single other form of society that produces a higher quality of life for the common man - than capitalism. In contrast, it is those societies that are the farthest from a free enterprise system that has the worst quality of life for the common man.

This is probably true, but it doesn't change the fact that capitalism is, in the end, a destructive economic system. I agree that short term benefit is great, but we are sacrificing the future in many, many ways--you know that already. We need to improve if we hope to have a future for our descendants.

 

[kwc57]

Ahh...but at the same time, there has not yet been a single other form of society that produces a higher quality of life for the common man - than capitalism. In contrast, it is those societies that are the farthest from a free enterprise system that has the worst quality of life for the common man.

This is probably true, but it doesn't change the fact that capitalism is, in the end, a destructive economic system. I agree that short term benefit is great, but we are sacrificing the future in many, many ways--you know that already. We need to improve if we hope to have a future for our descendants.

What do you propse we replace it with?

 

[Freemason9]

Ahh...but at the same time, there has not yet been a single other form of society that produces a higher quality of life for the common man - than capitalism. In contrast, it is those societies that are the farthest from a free enterprise system that has the worst quality of life for the common man.

This is probably true, but it doesn't change the fact that capitalism is, in the end, a destructive economic system. I agree that short term benefit is great, but we are sacrificing the future in many, many ways--you know that already. We need to improve if we hope to have a future for our descendants.

What do you propse we replace it with?

I don't actually know how to answer that. The capitalist system that emphasizes property ownership and eternal acquistion of material goods and cash (claims on the labor of others) is clearly destructive in the long term, though. I believe that humans need to evolve a great deal spiritually before a better economic system can be imagined.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Unions...the mother's milk of low achievers.

Unions are made up of a bunch of people who don't want to compete for higher pay and benefits.

It's the all or none bullshit that has led to the age of zero tolerance zero intelligence.

What higher wages and benefits?
In the real world wages have been flat for decades and companies are cutting back on benefits.

Benefits Shrinking for U.S. Workers
Benefits Shrinking for U.S. Workers - Features - News & Reviews - Baseline.com

And then there's wages. Wages have increased, but they aren't rising. Confused? Income has increased in nominal dollars but in fact have stayed flat in Real Dollars. Nominal dollars don't take in account inflation, where as in Real Dollars, which use constant dollars (that do take in account inflation) show incomes have been flat for decades. As a matter of fact, workers were making more in the 1970's than they are making currently.
Take a look at the chart below:

So you are saying that no one gets raises unless they refuse to work

Funny all my employees have gotten raises every year since we opened

 

[Mr Natural]

Yes, we should all be happy working for whatever pittance the Plutocrats want to throw us...

And if it wasn't for the labor movement, that's exactly what we'd be working for.

Just look at the difference in wages between the right-to-work states and the civilized states.

 

[kiwiman127]

Unions are made up of a bunch of people who don't want to compete for higher pay and benefits.

It's the all or none bullshit that has led to the age of zero tolerance zero intelligence.

What higher wages and benefits?
In the real world wages have been flat for decades and companies are cutting back on benefits.

Benefits Shrinking for U.S. Workers
Benefits Shrinking for U.S. Workers - Features - News & Reviews - Baseline.com

And then there's wages. Wages have increased, but they aren't rising. Confused? Income has increased in nominal dollars but in fact have stayed flat in Real Dollars. Nominal dollars don't take in account inflation, where as in Real Dollars, which use constant dollars (that do take in account inflation) show incomes have been flat for decades. As a matter of fact, workers were making more in the 1970's than they are making currently.
Take a look at the chart below:

So you are saying that no one gets raises unless they refuse to work

Funny all my employees have gotten raises every year since we opened

I'm addressing the country as a whole. Real Dollars are used by the Department of Labor.
Here's and explanation of Real Dollars versus nominal dollars.

===================================
Current versus Constant (or Real) Dollars

In order to accurately compare income over time, users should adjust the summary measures (medians, means, etc.) for changes in cost of living. The Census Bureau uses the Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) Consumer Price Index (CPI-U) to adjust for changes in the cost of living.1

Current dollars is a term describing income in the year in which a person, household, or family receives it. For example, the income someone received in 1989 unadjusted for inflation is in current dollars.

Constant or real dollars are terms describing income after adjustment for inflation. The Dictionary of Business and Economics defines constant dollar values and real income as shown below.

Constant-dollar value (also called real-dollar value) is a value expressed in dollars adjusted for purchasing power. Constant-dollar values represent an effort to remove the effects of price changes from statistical series reported in dollar terms. The result is a series as it would presumably exist if prices were the same throughout as they were in the base year-in other words, as if the dollar had constant purchasing power.

Real Income. The purchasing power of the income of an individual, group, or nation, computed by adjusting money income to price changes. A comparison between incomes earned during 1970 and 1980, for example, would be pointless unless 1970 and 1980 price levels were identical. Using a price index showing, for example, that average consumer prices increased by 50 percent between those years, it becomes clear that $1,000 in 1980 bought what $667 bought in 1970. Thus, even if total income actually doubled, real income would double only if prices remained constant.

EXAMPLE:
The median household income in 1989 in current dollars is $28,906. If you compared that with the 1990 median household income of $29,943, there appears to be an increase. If you adjusted that 1989 income for changes in the cost of living (converted it to 1990 constant or real dollars), the resulting 1989 median household income is $30,468 (now a 1989-to-1990 comparison of income shows a decline of 1.7 percent).

Footnote:

The Census Bureau uses BLS' experimental Consumer Price Index (CPI-U-X1) for 1967 through 1982 and the CPI-U for 1983 through 1998. The Census Bureau derived the CPI-U indexes for years before 1967 by applying the 1967 CPI-U-X1-to-CPI-U ratio to the 1947 to 1966 CPI-U indexes.
Historical Income Tables - Current versus Constant (or Real) Dollars - U.S Census Bureau
===============================

 

[kwc57]

Yes, we should all be happy working for whatever pittance the Plutocrats want to throw us...

And if it wasn't for the labor movement, that's exactly what we'd be working for.

Just look at the difference in wages between the right-to-work states and the civilized states.

And look at the cost of living in the free states and the collective states. I've lived in a right to work state and worked at non-union jobs for almost 40 years and I do quite nicely. My dad had a union job for 30 years, until they bankrupted the company when he was 58 and couldn't find another job that would replace his income. He ended up forced into retirement about 4 years earlier than he had planned. He always hated being part ofthe union. He just wanted to go to work, do his job and draw his pay. It always pissed him off when they started talking strike.

 

[Freemason9]

Yes, we should all be happy working for whatever pittance the Plutocrats want to throw us...

And if it wasn't for the labor movement, that's exactly what we'd be working for.

Just look at the difference in wages between the right-to-work states and the civilized states.

And look at the cost of living in the free states and the collective states. I've lived in a right to work state and worked at non-union jobs for almost 40 years and I do quite nicely. My dad had a union job for 30 years, until they bankrupted the company when he was 58 and couldn't find another job that would replace his income. He ended up forced into retirement about 4 years earlier than he had planned. He always hated being part ofthe union. He just wanted to go to work, do his job and draw his pay. It always pissed him off when they started talking strike.

You DO understand, of course, that one person's experience does not necessarily provide an all-encompassing summarization of an issue, right?

i.e., "My Dodge didn't start this morning; therefore, Dodges don't start in the mornings."

 

[kwc57]

And if it wasn't for the labor movement, that's exactly what we'd be working for.

Just look at the difference in wages between the right-to-work states and the civilized states.

And look at the cost of living in the free states and the collective states. I've lived in a right to work state and worked at non-union jobs for almost 40 years and I do quite nicely. My dad had a union job for 30 years, until they bankrupted the company when he was 58 and couldn't find another job that would replace his income. He ended up forced into retirement about 4 years earlier than he had planned. He always hated being part ofthe union. He just wanted to go to work, do his job and draw his pay. It always pissed him off when they started talking strike.

You DO understand, of course, that one person's experience does not necessarily provide an all-encompassing summarization of an issue, right?

i.e., "My Dodge didn't start this morning; therefore, Dodges don't start in the mornings."

Of course I do. You do however realize that my experience and my father's experience are not disimiliar from many other American's experiences aren't you? Plenty of people do well at non-union jobs. Many companies have folded due to excessive labor demands which have left their members without jobs. Plenty of history to back it up.

 

[OKTexas]

And if it wasn't for the labor movement, that's exactly what we'd be working for.

Just look at the difference in wages between the right-to-work states and the civilized states.

And look at the cost of living in the free states and the collective states. I've lived in a right to work state and worked at non-union jobs for almost 40 years and I do quite nicely. My dad had a union job for 30 years, until they bankrupted the company when he was 58 and couldn't find another job that would replace his income. He ended up forced into retirement about 4 years earlier than he had planned. He always hated being part ofthe union. He just wanted to go to work, do his job and draw his pay. It always pissed him off when they started talking strike.

You DO understand, of course, that one person's experience does not necessarily provide an all-encompassing summarization of an issue, right?

i.e., "My Dodge didn't start this morning; therefore, Dodges don't start in the mornings."

Nice deflection, now how about you address the high cost of living and I'll add high taxes in your civilized states. Wages are only high or low relative to the cost of living.

 

[koshergrl]

Ol' Staph has zero understanding of what it means to work on the factory floor. Blair Mountain and Ludlow means nothing to her. Like all too many, she has the Randian attitude toward anyone she does not consider part of the elite. That they should just be happy to be fodder for the ambitions of that elite. That we workers actually have ambitions and lives offends her deeply.

I don't believe you've worked a day in your life.

If you have, I doubt you have ever progressed...which explains your resentment of those who do.

I've worked the factory floor, as have my brothers, mother, my uncles, and my son. All of us progressed in our professional and personal lives. I have never blamed my employer or "the elite" for my failures, nor have I credited them with my success.

Only losers do that. Nobody owes you anything. If you can't succeed, look to yourself and stop trying to make it everybody else's problem.