The Palis Are Happy Planning For The Next Step

[Annie]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=612715

Palestinians in Gaza hold victory marches to mark start of pullout
By Arnon Regular, Amos Harel and Agencies

Palestinians across Gaza celebrated the start of the evacuation process of Israeli settlements on Monday, holding victory processions on the road between Khan Yunis and Rafah and the road from the Kissufim crossing to the Gush Katif settlement bloc.

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Monday welcomed Israel's evacuation from the Gaza Strip as an "historical moment," but said that Israel must also hand over the West Bank and East Jerusalem in the future.

"If they want peace, they must allow Palestinians to achieve their rights," Abbas told the BBC World Service.

"The Israeli withdrawal that has begun today is an important and historic step that shouldn't only happen in Gaza but also the West Bank and the rest of the land reaching to the 1949 borders," he told the Palestinian Authority-controlled Wafa News Agency.

Also Monday, IDF troops fired in the air to keep back hundreds of Palestinians, including a few dozen masked gunmen, who were marching toward the Gush Katif settlements.

The crowd burned a cardboard model of an Israeli settlement, complete with an army watchtower.

In Gaza City, members of Hamas hung banners proclaiming the pullout is a result of attacks by militants on Israelis. "The blood of martyrs has led to liberation," one banner said.

Islamic Jihad held a midnight procession to celebrate the start of the withdrawal.

Palestinian witnesses said that dozens of masked gunmen joined the procession to express joy at the beginning of the evacuation.

Marchers shouted that the withdrawal of the Israeli occupation was an achievement of Palestinian armed attacks. Several militants kneeled on the ground to express thanks for what they called "the victory that our people achieved throughout their sacrifices."

"The withdrawal of the enemy from part of our occupied territories is a big defeat for the Zionist enemy that is withdrawing under the strikes of Palestinian militant groups," said Islamic Jihad commander Abu Mohamed.

He said that his fighters "would never drop their arms unless the occupation ends in all the occupied Palestinian territories."

"We will continue armed resistance until the liberation of all the occupied territories," he said.

Jordan's king lauds Israel's withdrawal from Gaza
Jordan's King Abdullah II on Monday lauded Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and urged Palestinian factions to stand by their government as it assumes control over lands evacuated by the Israelis.

"Israel's pullout from Gaza is a positive step and must be a starting point for pulling out of the West Bank," Abdullah told Abbas in a telephone call, according to a statement released by the king's office.

It said Abdullah, whose country ruled the West Bank for 17 years ending with Israel's seizure of the territory in the 1967 Middle East War, voiced Jordan's "total support for the Palestinian Authority as it assumes control on lands which Israel will withdraw from."

The king urged Palestinian factions to refrain from acts of violence which could undermine the pullout. "It's necessary for all Palestinian factions to agree on achieving what is in the interest and what serves the aspirations of the Palestinian people to hinder any attempts for interfering in Palestinian affairs or obstructing the process of withdrawal," Abdullah said, according to the statement.

 

[dmp]

...give an inch, and they take a mile...that saying appropriate?

 

[Annie]

...give an inch, and they take a mile...that saying appropriate?

Too appropriate.

 

[dilloduck]

A majority of Israelis are in favor of withdrawing from Gaza and the action was passed by the Knessset. Attacking Israeli ANYWHERE after this unilateral "land for peace" decision will give Israel all the proof it needs to show the rest of the world that giving up any more land will NOT result in arab pacification. Israel still has every inch of land that was originally given to them and they will defend every inch of it.

They DON'T however need Jews to be killing Arabs as happened in the west bank today.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Dilloduck
Attacking Israeli ANYWHERE after this unilateral "land for peace" decision will give Israel all the proof it needs to show the rest of the world that giving up any more land will NOT result in arab pacification.

Of course it will not.

Arab pacification will come when the jewish supremacist state is peacefully dismantled and replaced by a democratic state that treats as equals the two ethnic groups that inhabit Palestine.

 

[Bonnie]

Of course it will not.

Arab pacification will come when the jewish supremacist state is peacefully dismantled and replaced by a democratic state that treats as equals the two ethnic groups that inhabit Palestine.

So in other words Jose Israel has no right to exist!! The Jews inhabit the amount of land equal to the state of NJ and you want them to give up more land to the Palestinians???? How about we relocate Israel right into the ocean? Would that finally make you happy!!

 

[Bonnie]

Jose Arab pacification

You mean terrorist pacification!!

 

[dilloduck]

So in other words Jose Israel has no right to exist!! The Jews inhabit the amount of land equal to the state of NJ and you want them to give up more land to the Palestinians???? How about we relocate Israel right into the ocean? Would that finally make you happy!!

Hopefully Israel will not have to "return" any more territory--the US can't afford to pay for it. It was disgusting watching American money at work today to remove protestors from a synagogue.

 

[Bonnie]

Hopefully Israel will not have to "return" any more territory--the US can't afford to pay for it. It was disgusting watching American money at work today to remove protestors from a synagogue.

Yes Dillo that bothered me very much watching that. And I have to say if that were my home i'd be fighting to stay there as well. I know this pull out is supposedly for the greater good, but I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of being forced to leaves one's home so others can move into it, especially after some have been there 30 years. Compensation or not it still sucks and seems very much like the movie "Dr Zhivago".

 

[dilloduck]

Yes Dillo that bothered me very much watching that. And I have to say if that were my home i'd be fighting to stay there as well. I know this pull out is supposedly for the greater good, but I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of being forced to leaves one's home so others can move into it, especially after some have been there 30 years. Compensation or not it still sucks and seems very much like the movie "Dr Zhivago".

It wasn't their homes--it was a group of protestors that illegally entered the area just to be seen moaning and groaning and ultimately made their own protectors look like the evil enemy and fools.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Bonnie
The Jews inhabit the amount of land equal to the state of NJ and you want them to give up more land to the Palestinians????
And I have to say if that were my home i'd be fighting to stay there as well, especially after some have been there 30 years.

But that’s exactly the reason why palestinian arabs are fighting, Bonnie.

They are fighting for their right to return to their places of origin in western Palestine, places they inhabited not for 30 years but for centuries.

They are fighting to live in a state that does not treat them as “foreigners” in their own homeland just because they do not belong to the “official” ethnicity of the state.

Why do you become so outraged when jewish settlers are evicted from their homes and deny the right of palestinian arabs to return to theirs?

Because you, like most people here, almost unconsciously, dehumanise the arab population of Palestine.

You look upon them as european colonialists did.

You consider them as a group of human beings who are entitled just a fraction of the rights enjoyed by another group of human beings (jews).

And this, Bonnie, is nothing more, nothing less than ethnic supremacism, or racial prejudice in plain English.

If you accept this basic premise of jewish ethnic supremacism:

<B>European settlers calling themselves jews have the right to expel and deny the right of native arabs to live in western Palestine.

Palestinian arabs cannot have equal needs, aspirations or rights to Israeli Jews.

Western Palestine belongs to jews only because they inherently have more rights than palestinians.

They are, so to speak, &#8220;more humans&#8221; than palestinian arabs.</B>

If you accept this basic premise of jewish supremacism then you lose your moral authority to criticise other ideologies based on ethnic supremacism, like Nazism, KKK etc etc

How can you criticise WJ for preaching white supremacism in America when you preach exactly the same thing in Palestine?

The sad spectacle of the dehumanization of the arab population of Palestine can be seen here a million times, when posters ask (including you):

Why should Israel give up the land they conquered?

First of all, I would like to answer this question with another question (a jewish tradition : )

Does the white population of the US &#8220;gave up&#8221; the United States because they <B>SHARE</B> it with Indians, blacks and hispanics?

What kind of question is that to begin with?

Badly phrased, to say the least.

But let me address the core of this question so frequently asked here:

Western Palestine must be shared by the two ethnic groups that call it home because palestinian arabs are not animals, they are not subhumans who can be herded into tiny enclaves and kept there as cattle.

Palestinian arabs are full humans who are entitled to the same rights a jewish individual is.

Let&#8217;s support unambiguously the idea of equal humanity of jews and arabs, Bonnie.

Let&#8217;s end this vicious cycle of dehumanisation that has left thousands of innocent arabs, jews and americans dead.

The path of colonial conquest chosen by Israel&#8217;s founders failed miserably and it&#8217;s high time to replace it for a path of bi-nationalism.

It&#8217;s perfectly possible to create a democratic state comprising the entire region of Palestine.

A state that has the safety of the jewish population as an overriding priority without dehumanising the arab population of Palestine, respecting their right to move freely and live anywhere they want in their historical homeland.

This is clearly a morally superior solution to Palestine.

It&#8217;s impossible to support the existence of Israel without dehumanising the arab population of Palestine.

The very existence of Israel is based on this dehumanization.

If you do believe that all men are created equal you must be ready to say no to Israel.

Think about it, Bonnie.

 

[Annie]

But that’s exactly the reason why palestinian arabs are fighting, Bonnie.

They are fighting for their right to return to their places of origin in western Palestine, places they inhabited not for 30 years but for centuries.

They are fighting to live in a state that does not treat them as “foreigners” in their own homeland just because they do not belong to the “official” ethnicity of the state.

Why do you become so outraged when jewish settlers are evicted from their homes and deny the right of palestinian arabs to return to theirs?

Because you, like most people here, almost unconsciously, dehumanise the arab population of Palestine.

You look upon them as european colonialists did.

You consider them as a group of human beings who are entitled just a fraction of the rights enjoyed by another group of human beings (jews).

And this, Bonnie, is nothing more, nothing less than ethnic supremacism, or racial prejudice in plain English.

If you accept this basic premise of jewish ethnic supremacism:

<B>European settlers calling themselves jews have the right to expel and deny the right of native arabs to live in western Palestine.

Palestinian arabs cannot have equal needs, aspirations or rights to Israeli Jews.

Western Palestine belongs to jews only because they inherently have more rights than palestinians.

They are, so to speak, “more humans” than palestinian arabs.</B>

If you accept this basic premise of jewish supremacism then you lose your moral authority to criticise other ideologies based on ethnic supremacism, like Nazism, KKK etc etc

How can you criticise WJ for preaching white supremacism in America when you preach exactly the same thing in Palestine?

The sad spectacle of the dehumanization of the arab population of Palestine can be seen here a million times, when posters ask (including you):

Why should Israel give up the land they conquered?

First of all, I would like to answer this question with another question (a jewish tradition : )

Does the white population of the US “gave up” the United States because they <B>SHARE</B> it with Indians, blacks and hispanics?

What kind of question is that to begin with?

Badly phrased, to say the least.

But let me address the core of this question so frequently asked here:

Western Palestine must be shared by the two ethnic groups that call it home because palestinian arabs are not animals, they are not subhumans who can be herded into tiny enclaves and kept there as cattle.

Palestinian arabs are full humans who are entitled to the same rights a jewish individual is.

Let’s support unambiguously the idea of equal humanity of jews and arabs, Bonnie.

Let’s end this vicious cycle of dehumanisation that has left thousands of innocent arabs, jews and americans dead.

The path of colonial conquest chosen by Israel’s founders failed miserably and it’s high time to replace it for a path of bi-nationalism.

It’s perfectly possible to create a democratic state comprising the entire region of Palestine.

A state that has the safety of the jewish population as an overriding priority without dehumanising the arab population of Palestine, respecting their right to move freely and live anywhere they want in their historical homeland.

This is clearly a morally superior solution to Palestine.

It’s impossible to support the existence of Israel without dehumanising the arab population of Palestine.

The very existence of Israel is based on this dehumanization.

If you do believe that all men are created equal you must be ready to say no to Israel.

Think about it, Bonnie.

Poor Palis, bankrolled not only by Saddam, the EU, but now also the UN:

http://theanchoressonline.com/2005/08/17/the-un-did-what/

 

[Bonnie]

JOse The very existence of Israel is based on this dehumanization.

If you do believe that all men are created equal you must be ready to say no to Israel.

Think about it, Bonnie.

Jose,
This proves you have no tolerance for Jews or Israel, you don't believe they are equal to Arabs!!


I certianly do not embrace Jewish imperialism as you call it. I do however have no sympathy for Palestinian terrorists who use their own people as an excuse to kill innocent Jews under the auspice of taking back a bit of land they feel they are entitled to. Im not buying it, it's bullshit!! And you know it. Bottom line is Arabs do not want to peacefully share or cohabitate with Jews, they want them gone period. You know that as well. Are there some peaceful Palestinians who want peace, yes Im sure of that.
What Sharon has done should be applauded by you and Arabs all over, but you don't, instead you criticize and say it's not enough which is exactly why no one is buying into what you claim, save for liberals in this country who think it's chic to Jew bash, and the entire Arab population who will not be happy till Israel no longer exists.

 

[Annie]

I have a problem with Jose's contention that the land 'belonged' to Palis. Forget the fact that Israel gained the land, while defending itself. More interesting back up for the argument that it was their's all along:

http://annotatedtimes.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/5/3/386D97E000120453/

HEY KIDS:
Source: Tapped - Monday, August 15, 2005 - GO TO THIS WEBLOG »

HEY KIDS: ISREAL WON. I know that many youngsters, now and again, like to rebel against authority, but this is just pathetic.

A crowd of Jewish teenagers slashed the tires and smashed the windows of army jeeps here late Sunday in what may be a preview of violent scenes by young protesters as Israel prepares to withdraw from the Gaza Strip this week.

Among the protesters were some of the hundreds, and possibly thousands, of religious Jewish young men and women who have illegally made their way to this and other settlements in Gaza ahead of withdrawal.

Young, proud, and dismissive of the state's authority, they have vowed resistance to the pullout, which they say is against God's will.

It’s important to remember that these kids, and presumably their parents, are freeloaders of the worst kind. Not only do they not accept the sovereign power of the state, but they are content to harass -- and perhaps even attack -- the same soldiers who gave them an umbrella of security for so long.

This is a struggle between the state of Israel and a few thousand religious extremists. Thankfully, Israeli public opinion has supported withdrawal for a long time now; the public is willing to trade messianic dreams held by a few thousand for peace and security in the here and now. Isreal won, the settlers lost. It's time they realize that, move on, and wait for the eschaton elsewhere.

--Mark Leon Goldberg Posted at 10:47 AM

 

[dilloduck]

Jose,
This proves you have no tolerance for Jews or Israel, you don't believe they are equal to Arabs!!


I certianly do not embrace Jewish imperialism as you call it. I do however have no sympathy for Palestinian terrorists who use their own people as an excuse to kill innocent Jews under the auspice of taking back a bit of land they feel they are entitled to. Im not buying it, it's bullshit!! And you know it. Bottom line is Arabs do not want to peacefully share or cohabitate with Jews, they want them gone period. You know that as well. Are there some peaceful Palestinians who want peace, yes Im sure of that.
What Sharon has done should be applauded by you and Arabs all over, but you don't, instead you criticize and say it's not enough which is exactly why no one is buying into what you claim, save for liberals in this country who think it's chic to Jew bash, and the entire Arab population who will not be happy till Israel no longer exists.

I'm amazed at the apparent polarity in opinions on the middle east problems--certainly the answer lies in the middle somewhere here yet people seem unwilling or unable to look at the facts as presented by both sides. Guess this explains why it has gone on for so long.

 

[Bonnie]

I have a problem with Jose's contention that the land 'belonged' to Palis. Forget the fact that Israel gained the land, while defending itself. More interesting back up for the argument that it was their's all along:

http://annotatedtimes.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/5/3/386D97E000120453/

Even more amazing are the people in this country that believe Israel has no right to that land. This really comes down to the haves and the have nots....Israel has and Israel has the guts to fight , so liberals and Arabs hate them.

 

[dilloduck]

Even more amazing are the people in this country that believe Israel has no right to that land. This really comes down to the haves and the have nots....Israel has and Israel has the guts to fight , so liberals and Arabs hate them.

The ones (me) that think Israel DOES have a right to the land but criticize some of its' policies ( or Americas' involvement in Israel ) are blasted for being anti-semitic, liberal and God knows what else. It's so explosive that calm, rational discussions are nearly impossible. I've asked many simple questions such as "why all the funding" and get either no answer or nailed to the cross. It's quite a passionate issue.

 

[Bonnie]

The ones (me) that think Israel DOES have a right to the land but criticize some of its' policies ( or Americas' involvement in Israel ) are blasted for being anti-semitic, liberal and God knows what else. It's so explosive that calm, rational discussions are nearly impossible. I've asked many simple questions such as "why all the funding" and get either no answer or nailed to the cross. It's quite a passionate issue.

So it is your opinon that America should just stay out of it completely?? I think the money America spends is seen by some as an investment in helping to keep a Democratic ally in place. JMO

 

[dilloduck]

So it is your opinon that America should just stay out of it completely?? I think the money America spends is seen by some as an investment in helping to keep a Democratic ally in place. JMO

I think we should provide political support however Israel has BY FAR the strongest military in the area and have shown how well they are able to protect themselves. They are succeptible to terror attacks as is ANY ally of the US and retaliate effectively when attacked. They simply do not need our economic help when they can afford to give settlers $400,000 per family.

They have the strongest economy in the region and are among the largest arms exporters in the world.

IMHO the state of Israels' right to exist should be firmly defended--I just question the wisdom of our expense in the area. God forbid the country is annihialated. In this day of modern warfare, exactly how will this strategically damage the US?--I simply can't find a financial reason for our IMMENSE expenditures there? What do we get in return?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Dilloduck
I'm amazed at the apparent polarity in opinions on the middle east problems--certainly the answer lies in the <B>MIDDLE</B> somewhere
The state of Israels' right to exist should be firmly defended

I believe a binational state is exactly &#8220;the middle&#8221; you mentioned, Dillo, because it adresses the legimate aspirations and grievances of both sides:

Security for the jewish population.

Civil rights for palestinian arabs.

Peace decoupled from justice is not peace, it&#8217;s surrender. Morally reprehensible and bound to fail.

It&#8217;s the peace of black americans working in the cotton plantations.

The peace of the slave.

But I&#8217;m fully aware that all these conversations based on polical theory are utterly useless to change someone else&#8217;s mind.

You (and almost all the members of the USMB) think about Palestine through what I call &#8220;the American/Jewish paradigm&#8221; which is based on the idea that palestinian arabs are not entitled to the same set of rights as jews.

This paradigm uses history and religion to dehumanise the arab population of Palestine:

History: the world Jewry, being the super victims of world (specially european) history, deserves a safe haven whose preservation is of course much more important than the rights of mere arabs.

Religion: Jews have a divine right to &#8220;redeem&#8221; Palestine thus, any dispossession of the natives of Palestine, if they existed, was an acceptable collateral damage to the implementation of God&#8217;s will. The western press portrays jews as a victimised people who now dedicate themselves to preach racial tolerance around the world but people who actually live in Israel is often struck by jewish religious anthropocentrism and sometimes despise towards gentiles.

I think about Palestine through what I call &#8220;the equal human worth paradigm&#8221; that is based on the idea that all groups of human beings on the face of the Earth, regardless of their historical background, ethnicity and religion are entitled to exactly the same set of rights.

As long as you continue to think about Palestine through a paradigm fundamentally based on the dehumanization of a group of human beings, the two state solution will still seem a &#8220;fair&#8221; solution to you or &#8220;the middle&#8221; as you say.

The only reason the process of legitimisation of the ethnic cleansing of Western Palestine sounds &#8220;fair&#8221; and &#8220;the middle&#8221; to you is the fact that you, following the line of thought of the &#8220;Western/Jewish paradigm&#8221;, almost unconsciously dehumanise this group of human beings.

You can come up with a thousand euphemisms to smoothen it, but as long as you support the existence of a country for jews only, comprising 78% or 50% of Palestine, you will still be dehumanising a group of human beings due to the simple fact that they belong to the &#8220;wrong&#8221; ethnicity.

What usually happen to us when we dehumanise other people in our daily life (treating them bad)?

We are also dehumanised in return (a verbal offense, a slap in the face or, if you&#8217;re really out of luck, a bullet in the head).

What&#8217;s happening in Palestine is something very similar. The native arab population see european settlers calling themselves jews and americans like yourself treating them as &#8220;just a bunch of arabs that can go live somewhere else&#8221; and then react to this dehumanisation.

Next time you feel like writing a post criticising the palestinian armed struggle, stop for a second and ask yourself:

Can I really demmand humane behaviour from people I dehumanise?

But all my speeches are just a waste of time.

Only when one goes through a paradigm shift, only when you see Palestine through a paradigm based on equal human worth, Israel&#8217;s true colors are revealed.

Only then you understand that Zionism, as practiced in Israel, is a morally repugnant ideology that uses history and religion to exalt one people over another while masquerading as something better than it is.