The Pain Keeps On Coming For Electric Car Owners

[Jarlaxle]

Again: Other than dedicated track cars, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years? The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!

Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris. In the real world, they have A/C! The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata. Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!

 

[Derideo_Te]

It seems to me that there is some pretty bad information floating around on this thread. I've owned a Chevrolet Volt for over two years now, and I'm a chemical engineer by formal training. So, a few corrections:

1) Electric cars do not use heat pumps for heating. They use resistance heaters. Resistance heaters draw significant power, and reduce range in cold weather. My Volt gets 40 miles of range in the summer and 30 miles of range in the winter.

2) Lithium ion batteries are not a severe issue for either manufacture or waste disposal. Lithium is not terribly rare, or particularly toxic. Rare earth magnets used in large electric motors are another matter. But we've been using large electric motors for a long time now, so this is nothing new.

3) Obviously electric cars use electricity, and roughly half of US electricity is generated by burning coal. Here's the good news: because electric motors are so much more efficient than gasoline engines (about 90% conversion efficiency versus about 30% conversion efficiency), electric vehicles "burn" much less fuel to get from Point A to Point B. To go 40 miles, an EV or EREV burns about half the fuel of a conventional car. That's a good thing, no matter how you slice it.

Clearly an EREV like the Volt (which I own) or an EV like a Tesla Model S (which I crave) is not suited for everyone, or for every application. (For example, it sucks for towing boats even though most trains use EREV technology.) But EV's are great for me and they are great for many other folks like me.

Lastly, I know most of you genuinely despise government bail-outs and tax-incentives. I agree with you 100%. I did not even apply for the Fuel-Efficient-Vehicle tax credit, so I paid full price for my Volt. (I voted with my wallet on that one.) That said, government intervention and incentives do have a place. I try to keep an open mind in that regard.

Refreshing to read a knowledgeable post in this thread. The endless bashing of EV and EREV vehicles is tiresome. Even the Saudi's are investing heavily in solar power because they see a market in the EU nations for electricity.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why has this thread slid downhill into another insignificant peeing contest?

Probably inevitable given the original premise. For a thread to remain vital it requires opposing points of view. For instance the premise that resale is a problem is disproven by the fact that the Prius retains 50% of it's original value after 5 years. Since that is probably the benchmark EREV vehicle it bodes well for other EV's in the future. However until there is more data it is too soon to predict that resale values will be any different to those of ICE vehicles. The range of EV's is increasing and that is probably going to continue given that there is a market demand. Another complaint was that EV's are just glorified golf carts. The reality is that EV's have better acceleration that traditional ICE vehicles. As far as cabs go NYC is already using them and NYPD uses EREV's too.

 

[Jarlaxle]

1) Electric cars do not use heat pumps for heating. They use resistance heaters. Resistance heaters draw significant power, and reduce range in cold weather. My Volt gets 40 miles of range in the summer and 30 miles of range in the winter.

Nissan Leaf uses a heat pump. Tesla uses a heat pump. EV1 used a heat pump. You fail.

 

[Underhill]

Again: Other than dedicated track cars, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years? The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!

Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris. In the real world, they have A/C! The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata. Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!

A/C is optional on a host of small cars, some of which I listed. And a lot of them are sold that way in the northern parts of the country where AC is often a waste.

The reason it is a waste is 1) It means worse mileage. Not a lot but a bit. 2) The systems break down a lot more up here. (3 months of use with 9 months of in-operation means a lot of corrosion issues). and 3) They just aren't necessary.

Where I live there are 3 months out of the year where the temperature might get hot enough to warrant it. In my hometown virtually none of the homes have AC. My wife and I looked at dozens of homes before buying ours and not one of them had AC.

Do you understand the difference between a need and a want? One might want AC. Might want it really bad. But need? Very few people. Extreme asthmatics, the very frail who live in the deep south...

Will most people opt for it if it's included? Of course they will. Will most people pay a bit extra for it? Probably. But is it necessary for survival? No.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Again: Other than dedicated track cars, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years? The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!

Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris. In the real world, they have A/C! The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata. Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!

A/C is optional on a host of small cars, some of which I listed. And a lot of them are sold that way in the northern parts of the country where AC is often a waste.

Wow, what a pile. News flash: I live in the "northern part of the country". Guess what: NEW CARS HAVE AIR CONDITIONING! Dealers WILL NOT TAKE a trade-in without it.

The reason it is a waste is 1) It means worse mileage. Not a lot but a bit.

Only at low speeds. Above about 35MPH, open windows cause more drag than the A/C.

2) The systems break down a lot more up here. (3 months of use with 9 months of in-operation means a lot of corrosion issues).

What a pile. First, the A/C comes on every time you use the defroster. It runs until it's cold...my Magnum's ran with the defroster down to about 25 degrees. Second...there just aren't that many issues with the systems. Both my Caprices went 15+ years with no A/C problems. My Jeep went 14 years (and 170,000 miles). My work trucks has never had the A/C serviced...it's a 2007 with 155,000 miles., it blows cold. (Well, as cold as Freightliner's lousy A/C ever blows.) One of the wreckers myh wife drives runs a JC Whitney system from the early 80's...it needed service (and replacement of the damaged condenser) when the truck was bought, hasn't needed anything in the 10+ years since.

and 3) They just aren't necessary.

Neither are radios, computers, or many other things. I bet you have plenty of "unnecessary" things.

Where I live there are 3 months out of the year where the temperature might get hot enough to warrant it. In my hometown virtually none of the homes have AC. My wife and I looked at dozens of homes before buying ours and not one of them had AC.

And hey...I bet there are LOTS of window air conditioners used in that area! I use one. (My old house doesn't have central A/C.)

Do you understand the difference between a need and a want? One might want AC. Might want it really bad. But need? Very few people. Extreme asthmatics, the very frail who live in the deep south...

Will most people opt for it if it's included? Of course they will. Will most people pay a bit extra for it? Probably. But is it necessary for survival? No.

Your point? Wait...you have none.

 

[Underhill]

Again: Other than dedicated track cars, has Porsche built ANYTHING without A/C in the last 20 years? The GT2 and GT3 are track cars!

Yes, in theory, A/C is optional on the Yaris. In the real world, they have A/C! The only thing I can think of built in the last 20 years that had more than a handful of units sold without A/C (probably to weirdos like you) is the Mazda MX-5/Miata. Even the ZR1 Corvette has A/C, and it is the closest thing available to a street-legal race car!

A/C is optional on a host of small cars, some of which I listed. And a lot of them are sold that way in the northern parts of the country where AC is often a waste.

Wow, what a pile. News flash: I live in the "northern part of the country". Guess what: NEW CARS HAVE AIR CONDITIONING! Dealers WILL NOT TAKE a trade-in without it.



Only at low speeds. Above about 35MPH, open windows cause more drag than the A/C.



What a pile. First, the A/C comes on every time you use the defroster. It runs until it's cold...my Magnum's ran with the defroster down to about 25 degrees. Second...there just aren't that many issues with the systems. Both my Caprices went 15+ years with no A/C problems. My Jeep went 14 years (and 170,000 miles). My work trucks has never had the A/C serviced...it's a 2007 with 155,000 miles., it blows cold. (Well, as cold as Freightliner's lousy A/C ever blows.) One of the wreckers myh wife drives runs a JC Whitney system from the early 80's...it needed service (and replacement of the damaged condenser) when the truck was bought, hasn't needed anything in the 10+ years since.



Neither are radios, computers, or many other things. I bet you have plenty of "unnecessary" things.

Where I live there are 3 months out of the year where the temperature might get hot enough to warrant it. In my hometown virtually none of the homes have AC. My wife and I looked at dozens of homes before buying ours and not one of them had AC.

And hey...I bet there are LOTS of window air conditioners used in that area! I use one. (My old house doesn't have central A/C.)

Do you understand the difference between a need and a want? One might want AC. Might want it really bad. But need? Very few people. Extreme asthmatics, the very frail who live in the deep south...

Will most people opt for it if it's included? Of course they will. Will most people pay a bit extra for it? Probably. But is it necessary for survival? No.

Your point? Wait...you have none.

My point is obvious. You claimed AC is necessary. It obviously isn't.

You assume that people will not have to give anything up in the upcoming changes coming to our automotive industry. There is a chance you are right. But short of a miracle bio fuel, all the options that do not involve gasoline or diesel engines have range issues.

So like it or not, we may see changes coming. And the first things on that list will be anything that isn't necessary that draws large amounts of power...