The Original Sin of Israel

[georgephillip]

According to Uri Avnery a distinction between Israelis and Jews would not have been a surprise to anyone living in Israel 50 years ago. Although it apparently surprised a Polish journalist returning to Warsaw after his first visit to the Holy Land:

"'A friend of mine in Warsaw told me about a Polish journalist who visited Israel for the first time. On his return he reported with great excitement: “You know what I’ve discovered? In Israel, too, there are Jews!'"

Avnery believes confusion about this distinction between Israeli and Jew has sown great evil in today's Israel:

"This distinction between Israelis and Jews would not have surprised any of us 50 years ago.

"Before the foundation of the State of Israel, none of us spoke about a 'Jewish state'.

"In our demonstrations we chanted: 'Free Immigration! Hebrew State!'

In almost all media quotations from those days, there appear the two words 'Hebrew state', almost never 'Jewish state'.

Uri then goes into a fair amount of detail regarding "Torah-shielded parasites" and how they are currently taxing Israel's economy before summing up with this brief paragraph:

"The source of all this evil is, of course, the original sin of the State of Israel: the non-separation between state and religion, based on the non-separation between nation and religion.

"Nothing but a complete separation between the two will save Israel from total domination by the religious mutation."

The Original Sin

 

[Marc39]

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper...

All of my life, Israel has been a symbol of the triumph of hope and faith. After 1945, our battered world desperately needed to be lifted out of post-war darkness and despair. After so much pain and suffering, humanity needed comfort and optimism. After so much death and destruction, we needed renewal. The renewal of the dream of a better and more civilized world. We needed to be inspired and it was the Jewish people who suffered most who provided that inspiration.

By their example, they led the world back to the light. From shattered Europe and other countries, near and far, the descendants of Abrhahan, Isaac and Jacob made their way home. Their pilgramage was the culmination of a 2000 year dream it is a tribute to the unquenchable human aspiration for freedom and a testament to the indominable spirit of the Jewish People.

In the 60 years that followed, Israel blossomed into one of the most successful countries on Earth. A land of ingenuity and enterprise, an oasis of agricultural genius, a wellspring of fine art and high culture, a model of democracy, Israel is truly the miracle in the desert.

But, the source of Israel's strength and success is its commitment to the universal values of all civilized people, freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Soon, I hope to have the opportunity to travel to Israel to see the miracle with my own eyes. To see how millions of people from all over the Earth with their countless different languages and traditions came together to build a modern, prosperous, vibrant democratic country.

I want to see first hand what the survivors of the Holocaust and their descendants have accomplished for theirs is truly an achievement of resilience and renewal unsurpassed in the annals of human history. Considering how far Israel has come in so short a time, in the face of such seemingly insurmountable odds, I can foresee no dark force, no matter how strong, that could succeed in dimming the light of freedom and democracy that shines from within Israel.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWhpWHeI6-U[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Stephen Harper is a fascist stooge.

 

[Marc39]

Stephen Harper is a fascist stooge.

No wonder you have zero reputational points.

Stephen Harper Among Most Admired Heads of Govt In The World
Harper and Merkel Admired Around the World | Angus Reid Public Opinion

 

[P F Tinmore]

Harper is full of crap.

After so much death and destruction, we needed renewal. The renewal of the dream of a better and more civilized world.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkwU5COqt4Q[/ame]

 

[Marc39]

I am an Israeli Arab and I support Israel.
Why? Because, I can express myself freely. I'm a free man living in a free country. With my family situation, if I was living in an Arab country, I will be killed long time ago. With my mind and my way of living and my way of thinking, I'm surely already have been killed long time ago.

Why? Because, I love freedom. I adore liberty. And, in Israel, simply, you can express that. Can you imagine if you were a Jewish man living in an Arab country and Parliament member and trying to curse your country, they will kill you straight away. Look what Israel is doing with Arabs in Parliament, they listen, it's a democracy, no problem. They [Arabs] are shouting freely against Israel in the Parliament. This is the truth.
I'm proud to be an Arab living in Israel. I know Arabs they will hate me and kill me, but I don't care. I care about the truth. The truth is there is no much problems with Arabs in Israel. Poor people in Israel if they want to study in the university and clever, they can apply to the university and if they are really wise they can go study free. And, they don't have to pay even if they are an Arab. Israel gives you an opportunity to learn free.

There are very good things in Israel. Health security, in Israel if you are Arab and have any medical problem, you can be fixed for free, You don't pay a penny. They give you life security, no problem. You can work like everyone and you get your pension. Everyone in Israel have a pension. Arabs and Jewish they get the same. Arab doctor and Jewish doctor, they get the same salary. Arab teacher and Jewish teacher, they get the same salary.

Arab student and Jewish student they get the same education. It's the same. The dreams of life, quite the same. If you are good citizen, you have no problems. You can live free. You can go wherever you like. You can choose, you can get inside any group you want.

Honestly, I served in the Israeli army. What is the problem? You want to tell me Arabs don't kill each other? Look in Iraq, they are brothers living in the same neighborhood and they are killing each other. I'm living here, my family is here, everyone I care about is here--my wife, my daughters is here. This is the truth: I'm proud being an Arab living in Israel.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbrIWyEhl8A[/ame]

 

[(R)IGHTeous 1]

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper...

All of my life, Israel has been a symbol of the triumph of hope and faith. After 1945, our battered world desperately needed to be lifted out of post-war darkness and despair. After so much pain and suffering, humanity needed comfort and optimism. After so much death and destruction, we needed renewal. The renewal of the dream of a better and more civilized world. We needed to be inspired and it was the Jewish people who suffered most who provided that inspiration.

By their example, they led the world back to the light. From shattered Europe and other countries, near and far, the descendants of Abrhahan, Isaac and Jacob made their way home. Their pilgramage was the culmination of a 2000 year dream it is a tribute to the unquenchable human aspiration for freedom and a testament to the indominable spirit of the Jewish People.

In the 60 years that followed, Israel blossomed into one of the most successful countries on Earth. A land of ingenuity and enterprise, an oasis of agricultural genius, a wellspring of fine art and high culture, a model of democracy, Israel is truly the miracle in the desert.

But, the source of Israel's strength and success is its commitment to the universal values of all civilized people, freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Soon, I hope to have the opportunity to travel to Israel to see the miracle with my own eyes. To see how millions of people from all over the Earth with their countless different languages and traditions came together to build a modern, prosperous, vibrant democratic country.

I want to see first hand what the survivors of the Holocaust and their descendants have accomplished for theirs is truly an achievement of resilience and renewal unsurpassed in the annals of human history. Considering how far Israel has come in so short a time, in the face of such seemingly insurmountable odds, I can foresee no dark force, no matter how strong, that could succeed in dimming the light of freedom and democracy that shines from within Israel.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWhpWHeI6-U[/ame]

That's beautiful, and very true.

 

[Marc39]

"The source of all this evil is, of course, the original sin of the State of Israel: the non-separation between state and religion, based on the non-separation between nation and religion.[]

The UN ranks Israel among the 15 best countries to live in (out of 170 countries) in the world and with the highest qualities of life, emphasizing political and cultural freedom and equality in education, healthcare, life expectancy and income, ahead of England, Spain, Greece, Italy, Finland, Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg and Austria

Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)

Human Development is a development paradigm that is about much more than the rise or fall of national incomes. It is about creating an environment in which people can develop their full potential and lead productive, creative lives in accord with their needs and interests. People are the real wealth of nations. Development is thus about expanding the choices people have to lead lives that they value. And it is thus about much more than economic growth, which is only a means —if a very important one —of enlarging people’s choices.

Fundamental to enlarging these choices is building human capabilities —the range of things that people can do or be in life. The most basic capabilities for human development are to lead long and healthy lives, to be knowledgeable, to have access to the resources needed for a decent standard of living and to be able to participate in the life of the community. Without these, many choices are simply not available, and many opportunities in life remain inaccessible.

 

[georgephillip]

More Avnery on the biggest irony he's witnessed since 1933 Israel:

"In 1933 I lived for half a year in Nahalal, the legendary communal village. Seeing it for the first time, I marveled at the communal hall building, the milk processing plant and the large agricultural school for girls (in which Moshe Dayan was the only male pupil).

"Out of curiosity I asked about the synagogue and was shown a ramshackle wooden hut. 'That’s for the old ones,' one of the local boys told me pityingly.

"One cannot understand what happened since then without knowing that in those days almost everyone believed that the Jewish religion was about to disappear, together with the Yiddish-speaking old people who still stuck to it. Poor geezers.

"If somebody had predicted that the Jewish religion would dominate the future state, people would have laughed.

The Original Sin

 

[Marc39]

More Avnery on the biggest irony he's witnessed since 1933 Israel

The UN ranks Israel among the 15 best countries to live in (out of 170 countries) in the world and with the highest qualities of life, emphasizing political and cultural freedom and equality in education, healthcare, life expectancy and income, ahead of England, Spain, Greece, Italy, Finland, Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg and Austria

Statistics | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)

Human Development is a development paradigm that is about much more than the rise or fall of national incomes. It is about creating an environment in which people can develop their full potential and lead productive, creative lives in accord with their needs and interests. People are the real wealth of nations. Development is thus about expanding the choices people have to lead lives that they value. And it is thus about much more than economic growth, which is only a means —if a very important one —of enlarging people’s choices.

Fundamental to enlarging these choices is building human capabilities —the range of things that people can do or be in life. The most basic capabilities for human development are to lead long and healthy lives, to be knowledgeable, to have access to the resources needed for a decent standard of living and to be able to participate in the life of the community. Without these, many choices are simply not available, and many opportunities in life remain inaccessible.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Stephen Harper is a fascist stooge.

No wonder you have zero reputational points.

You seem very concerned with rep points.

 

[Marc39]

Stephen Harper is a fascist stooge.

No wonder you have zero reputational points.

You seem very concerned with rep points.

 

[RadiomanATL]

No wonder you have zero reputational points.

You seem very concerned with rep points.

Yes, I agree you are.

 

[Marc39]

You seem very concerned with rep points.

Yes, I agree you are.

 

[georgephillip]

Well, I'm glad we're all clear on that.

When Avnery contrasts "Jewish State" with "Hebrew State" what distinction is he making?

Is there a distinction between nation and state?

 

[Marc39]

Well, I'm glad we're all clear on that.

When Avnery contrasts "Jewish State" with "Hebrew State" what distinction is he making?

Is there a distinction between nation and state?

What About The Arab Apartheid?
by Khaled Abu Toameh

Ironically, the Arab citizens of Israel enjoy more rights in the Jewish state than their Palestinian brothers do in any Arab country.

And is it not ironic that the government of Binyamin Netanyahu is doing more to boost the Palestinian economy in the West Bank than any Arab country? .

Perhaps the time has come to start paying attention to the plight of the Palestinians in the Arab world.

How come the Lebanese students who recently talked about Israel's "war crimes" in the Gaza Strip during Israel Apartheid Week on many North American college campuses had nothing to say about the fact that tens of thousands of Palestinians have been massacred in Lebanon over the past four decades? Dozens of refugees were killed and hundreds wounded in the three-month offensive that also destroyed thousands of houses inside the refugee camp. Reporters said it was the worst internal violence in Lebanon since the civil war that hit the country between 1975-1990. And just three years ago, the Lebanese Army used heavy artillery to bomb the Nahr-al-Bared refugee camp in north Lebanon.

Yet who has ever heard of a United Nations resolution condemning Syria or Lebanon for committing horrific atrocities or discriminating against the Palestinians? The Lebanese, Syrian and Jordanian students and professors who took part in the anti-Israel events on campuses have clearly "forgotten" that their regimes probably have more Palestinian blood on their hands than Israel. In the early 1970s, the Jordanians slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in what has become known as Black September. Can somebody point to one United Nations resolution condemning that massacre?

And where was the United Nations when Kuwait and several Gulf countries expelled more than 400,000 Palestinians in one week? The exodus took place in March 1991, after Kuwait was liberated from Iraqi occupation. Ironically, the first week of March is being celebrated on university campuses as Israel Apartheid Week with no reference to the mass expulsion of Palestinians from the Gulf. Although there are more than 400,000 Palestinians living in Lebanon in twelve refugee camps -- which human rights organizations and Palestinians say have the worst living conditions of all the refugee camps in the Middle East -- as in most of the Arab countries, these Palestinians have been assigned the status of "foreigners," a fact which has deprived them of health care, social services, property ownership and education.

Even worse, Lebanese law bans Palestinians from working in many jobs. This means that Palestinians cannot work in the public services and institutions run by the government such as schools and hospitals. Unlike Israel, Lebanese public hospitals do not admit Palestinians for medical treatment or surgery. Can somebody imagine the outcry of the international community if Israel's parliament, the Knesset, passed a law today prohibiting Arabs from working in certain professions or receiving medical treatment? The same applies to Palestinians living in most of the Arab countries. While Israel has never stripped its Arab citizens of their citizenship, Jordan has begun revoking the Jordanian citizenship of thousands of its citizens who are of Palestinian descent. Jordan was the only Arab country that has ever granted Palestinian Jordanian citizenship. In recent years, however, the Jordanians appear to have regretted that decision. As for the rest of the Arab countries, Palestinians can only dream of obtaining citizenship. It is almost impossible to find a Palestinian with Egyptian or Moroccan or Kuwaiti citizenship.

What about the Arab apartheid? by Khaled Abu Toameh Israel, belegerd volk, cultuur en natie

 

[Ropey]

Well, I'm glad we're all clear on that.

When Avnery contrasts "Jewish State" with "Hebrew State" what distinction is he making?

Is there a distinction between nation and state?

Uri Avnery believes he is a descendant of the 'wandering Jews' of the bible. He is also what is considered a self hating Jew. He uses that term in his own desire to see the dissolution of Israel.

Hebrew is a language. A Hebrew state, therefore, by definition is a state where Hebrew is the main distinction of the state, not the race.

That's nonsense to my thinking. A state whose language is Hebrew and whose official holidays are Jewish? But has no official race? Surrounded by Arabians who want to dissolve the country. Fighting, high birth rates, silent sedition, etc. are many methods in which the dissolution can occur and surprise, Uri is at the forefront.

You can consider Africa a black continent. You can consider the Arabian Peninsula an Arabian Peninsula and you can consider Iran an Islamic State.

So, by the very definitions of the area, I would think that it is safe to conclude A Jewish state is the ethnicity of the state.

So, in summation. Hebrew state is an attempt to seek the Jews racial dissolution. Jewish state is a protection of the Jewish identity of the culture and race of people who have been in that area lo these thousands of years.

The Arabs want to go back to Pre forty eight.

Fine. If they can do that, let's go back a few more thousands of years, shall we?

 

[georgephillip]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

 

[Marc39]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

Don't the Muslims who inhabit 99.9% of the Middle East and north Africa claim its sacred Islamic land owned by allah, as stated in the Quran that was created 1400 years ago?

Yah, they do.

Difference is, Jews actually have lived continuously in "Palestine" for 4000 years, unlike Muslims who are interlopers from Arabia.

 

[editec]

And if we do that in Jerusalem, why not Manhattan?

Or London?

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

Or are all Jews special exceptions?

I dread posting about the issue of Isreal here because there's so much hatred and malice here that no matter what you say somebody is going to declare you a Jew Hater or a terrorist lover or something,

But that said, George is asking us the right question.

Should all living humans on this planet be entitled to land their ancestors allegedly lived on thousands of years ago?

I have another question to augment his...

How long does a people have to live on a land before they get clear title to it?

I ask because both the Palestinians and the Jews both have lived on the same land for generations and both claimexclusive title to it.

I mean, don't we all think it reasonable to assume that if you BORN on a land, that you have to right to think of it as your country?

Well there's been plenty of Jews born in Ithat land and they have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

And there's been plenty of Palestinians born in that land, and they ALSO have NO PLACE ELSE TO CALL HOME.

My point here is pretty simple...

history alone cannot help us solve this debate, and neither will it give either side the HIGHER moral ground.


NOBODY has the higher moral ground and nobody here has a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to the land, either.

Sadly, when it comes to GEOPOLTICS, might makes right.

Wishing that wasn't so doesn't change it.

In that respect Israel/Palestine is really no idfferent than any other land on earth.