The Official OWS Statement

[daveman]

Ayers is nothing more than a murdering anti-American socialist

Incorrect. Actually, the only one of those three that IS correct about him is "socialist." At least it used to be. If you had added "criminal" and "terrorist" and "violent ex-revolutionary," I would also have to agree with those. But he is neither a murderer nor anti-American.

And in any case, he is certainly not "nothing more" than his crimes. He is also a community organizer, an activist (peaceful these days) for progressive causes, a humanitarian. Arguably, he should have gone to prison for conspiracy to destroy property and endanger lives; he did not due to malfeasance by the prosecution, and cannot be prosecuted again due to double jeopardy rules. But what he should not be, is dismissed in his opinions merely because he has in the past done things we should not approve of. The fact that he has expressed support for OWS does not in any way indict that movement. It would be surprising if he did not express support for the first large-scale grass-roots movement on the left since the 1960s.

I already posted a link to the manifesto from the NYC General Assembly's web site, for those who don't want to listen to Olbermann or visit Ayers' site, but here it is again (this is more "official" than Olbermann or Ayers anyway): Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly

You lefties sure do love your terrorists.

 

[oreo]

Keith Olbermann reads the first collective statement of Occupy Wall Street

I don't think Olbermann's was the first.

HERE is the 14 minute radio interview with the Lloyd Hart--the Master Occupier that wrote the original 13 demand list.

VERY INFORMATIVE--if you can get through it without laughing your arses off.
Click on below link then scroll down to interview with Lloyd Hart--Master occupier

96.9 Boston Talks Audio On-Demand

 

[Dragon]

Utter bullshit.

Ayers is an admitted murderer. When asked about his murder trial, he said: "Guilty as sin [of felony murder]; free as a bird. It's a great country."

He is also a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, and so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA.

He hates the USA.

We have already established that you are completely irrational when it comes to William Ayers, so none of what I am about to say will penetrate the layer of bile and spittle that surrounds you whenever his name comes up. Nevertheless, for the sake of others who may be less prone to hyperventilate over him, I'll go ahead and say it.

While Ayers was indicted for murder on a technicality, a technicality is all it was. By any normal and non-lawyerly interpretation of the word, he was not a murderer. The only reason the technicality applied is that the accidental deaths of several Weathermen occurred in the context of conspiracy to commit a crime, of which Ayers was indeed guilty.

Now, that may technically be murder, but in the ordinary understanding of the word when you call Ayers a murderer you are not saying that some of his fellows blew themselves up accidentally. You are saying he shot someone or stabbed someone or planted a bomb that killed someone, and none of those things is true.

There is no evidence at all that he hates his country. He is, after all, still living here. If he hates America so much there is nothing to stop him from leaving for another land that might better meet his approval. Nor is there any evidence from his writings, current or in the past -- and he's a prolific writer, of course -- that he harbors any hatred against America or any desire to see her come to harm. He has delivered very severe criticism against the United States government, that's true -- but in this country we are guaranteed the right to do that, and in no way is that an indication that one hates America.

A terrorist? That's arguable. If a violent attack that is not intended to hurt anyone, and doesn't, can be considered "terrorism," then the label fits. Certainly he planted bombs and deliberately destroyed public and private property. Certainly in doing so he endangered people's lives recklessly and irresponsibly, even though in the end no one was hurt by any bombs that he planted. Certainly these are crimes.

But that's really all that anyone can say against him in terms of illegal activities. Your characterization of the William Ayers of his Weatherman days is overblown and irrational. And extending that characterization to the present, when he has not engaged in any criminal activity in forty years, is absurd.

 

[oreo]

Utter bullshit.

Ayers is an admitted murderer. When asked about his murder trial, he said: "Guilty as sin [of felony murder]; free as a bird. It's a great country."

He is also a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, and so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA.

He hates the USA.

We have already established that you are completely irrational when it comes to William Ayers, so none of what I am about to say will penetrate the layer of bile and spittle that surrounds you whenever his name comes up. Nevertheless, for the sake of others who may be less prone to hyperventilate over him, I'll go ahead and say it.

While Ayers was indicted for murder on a technicality, a technicality is all it was. By any normal and non-lawyerly interpretation of the word, he was not a murderer. The only reason the technicality applied is that the accidental deaths of several Weathermen occurred in the context of conspiracy to commit a crime, of which Ayers was indeed guilty.

Now, that may technically be murder, but in the ordinary understanding of the word when you call Ayers a murderer you are not saying that some of his fellows blew themselves up accidentally. You are saying he shot someone or stabbed someone or planted a bomb that killed someone, and none of those things is true.

There is no evidence at all that he hates his country. He is, after all, still living here. If he hates America so much there is nothing to stop him from leaving for another land that might better meet his approval. Nor is there any evidence from his writings, current or in the past -- and he's a prolific writer, of course -- that he harbors any hatred against America or any desire to see her come to harm. He has delivered very severe criticism against the United States government, that's true -- but in this country we are guaranteed the right to do that.

A terrorist? That's arguable. If a violent attack that is not intended to hurt anyone, and doesn't, can be considered "terrorism," then the label fits. Certainly he planted bombs and deliberately destroyed public and private property. Certainly in doing so he endangered people's lives recklessly and irresponsibly, even though in the end no one was hurt by any bombs that he planted. Certainly these are crimes.

But that's really all that anyone can say against him in terms of illegal activities. Your characterization of the William Ayers of his Weatherman days is overblown and irrational. And extending that characterization to the present, when he has not engaged in any criminal activity in forty years, is absurd.

What you're talking about is "conspiracy to commit murder"--the problem is someone died--even though they were supporters of Bill Ayers--he is indeed responsible for their deaths.

For instance you go into rob a bank. You really have no intention of hurting anyone--but someone gets in your way and you shoot them dead--it is MURDER--because it was in the act of committing a crime that you killed someone and you will be charged with murder also. And we do consider in this country people who try to blow up government buildings as terrorists. Timothy McVee comes to mind.

 

[Si modo]

Utter bullshit.

Ayers is an admitted murderer. When asked about his murder trial, he said: "Guilty as sin [of felony murder]; free as a bird. It's a great country."

He is also a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, and so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA.

He hates the USA.

We have already established that you are completely irrational when it comes to William Ayers, so none of what I am about to say will penetrate the layer of bile and spittle that surrounds you whenever his name comes up. Nevertheless, for the sake of others who may be less prone to hyperventilate over him, I'll go ahead and say it.

While Ayers was indicted for murder on a technicality, a technicality is all it was. By any normal and non-lawyerly interpretation of the word, he was not a murderer. The only reason the technicality applied is that the accidental deaths of several Weathermen occurred in the context of conspiracy to commit a crime, of which Ayers was indeed guilty.

Now, that may technically be murder, but in the ordinary understanding of the word when you call Ayers a murderer you are not saying that some of his fellows blew themselves up accidentally. You are saying he shot someone or stabbed someone or planted a bomb that killed someone, and none of those things is true.

....

You have a few facts twisted, but I bet you knew that. In the real world, what is irrational is the radical left's consistent attempt to describe a circle as a square when it comes to Bill Ayers. It's not, and never will be.

Bill Ayers was indicted for murder, not on a technicality, but for murder, specifically FELONY MURDER.

Here, read what felony murder is: The rule that if any person is killed during a felony, the criminal can be charged with murder. As of August 2008, 46 states in the United States have a felony murder rule, under which felony murder is generally first degree murder. In 24 of those states, it is a capital offense [emphasis added]. One of his bombs went off while other of his terrorists were working with it and they died in the process of a felony offense.

What did happen is that the prosecution of him for felony murder screwed up and the case was dismissed on a technicality. When asked about that, Ayers responded, "Guilty as sin [of felony murder]; free as a bird. It's a great country."

So, he is also an admitted murderer.

Those are the facts.

.... There is no evidence at all that he hates his country.

....

Bullshit.

His words in 2001 to the NYT: "I don't regret setting bombs" and "I feel we didn't do enough", and, when asked if he would "do it all again," as saying "I don't want to discount the possibility."

His targets were justices, the Pentagon, police, etc.

Bill Ayers hates the USA (photo in 2001):

He is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, as is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA.

 

[Dragon]

What you're talking about is "conspiracy to commit murder"--the problem is someone died--even though they were supporters of Bill Ayers--he is indeed responsible for their deaths.

For instance you go into rob a bank. You really have no intention of hurting anyone--but someone gets in your way and you shoot them dead--it is MURDER--because it was in the act of committing a crime that you killed someone and you will be charged with murder also.

I understand the legalities. I'm just pointing out that there's a huge difference between that sort of thing and what actually happened with the Weathermen. A good analogy to the bank-robbery shooting would have been if one of their bombs, which was set to go off when no one was on the property, happened to catch someone working late and killed them. But the only ones killed by their bombs were three of their own number. Given that fact, it may or may not have been legally appropriate to charge surviving Weathermen with conspiracy to commit murder, but to say of Ayers on that basis "he's a murderer!" is to create a false impression. By any usual and ordinary understanding of that word, no, he isn't.

He could have been! Any of those bombs could have caught someone working late and killed them. But they didn't, as a matter of fact. Destructive, reckless, irresponsible, stupid -- all of that. But not murder.

And we do consider in this country people who try to blow up government buildings as terrorists. Timothy McVee comes to mind.

Well, McVeigh's bomb killed a lot of people, so that's not really a good comparison. But yes, if you don't have to kill or hurt people to commit an act of terrorism, then the label applies. I'm not defending planting bombs for political purposes; I think that sucks and the Weathermen were assholes to do it. I'm just trying to keep things rational and in perspective, and avoid going off the deep end.

EDIT: By the way, the contrast of your reasoned post with those of Si modo is a good illustration of just how off-the-wall she is on this subject.

 

[daveman]

Utter bullshit.

Ayers is an admitted murderer. When asked about his murder trial, he said: "Guilty as sin [of felony murder]; free as a bird. It's a great country."

He is also a terrorist pig and a piece of shit, and so is his wife. He was, and is, an enemy of the USA.

He hates the USA.

We have already established that you are completely irrational when it comes to William Ayers, so none of what I am about to say will penetrate the layer of bile and spittle that surrounds you whenever his name comes up. Nevertheless, for the sake of others who may be less prone to hyperventilate over him, I'll go ahead and say it.

While Ayers was indicted for murder on a technicality, a technicality is all it was. By any normal and non-lawyerly interpretation of the word, he was not a murderer. The only reason the technicality applied is that the accidental deaths of several Weathermen occurred in the context of conspiracy to commit a crime, of which Ayers was indeed guilty.

Now, that may technically be murder, but in the ordinary understanding of the word when you call Ayers a murderer you are not saying that some of his fellows blew themselves up accidentally. You are saying he shot someone or stabbed someone or planted a bomb that killed someone, and none of those things is true.

There is no evidence at all that he hates his country. He is, after all, still living here. If he hates America so much there is nothing to stop him from leaving for another land that might better meet his approval. Nor is there any evidence from his writings, current or in the past -- and he's a prolific writer, of course -- that he harbors any hatred against America or any desire to see her come to harm. He has delivered very severe criticism against the United States government, that's true -- but in this country we are guaranteed the right to do that, and in no way is that an indication that one hates America.

A terrorist? That's arguable. If a violent attack that is not intended to hurt anyone, and doesn't, can be considered "terrorism," then the label fits. Certainly he planted bombs and deliberately destroyed public and private property. Certainly in doing so he endangered people's lives recklessly and irresponsibly, even though in the end no one was hurt by any bombs that he planted. Certainly these are crimes.

But that's really all that anyone can say against him in terms of illegal activities. Your characterization of the William Ayers of his Weatherman days is overblown and irrational. And extending that characterization to the present, when he has not engaged in any criminal activity in forty years, is absurd.

Thanks for proving me right.

 

[mudwhistle]

Bill Ayers is a fucking anti AMERICAN.. he needs to get his fucking ass over to Russia where he belongs.

Obama, Bill Ayers, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Van Jones, Andy Stern, Bill Maher, Michael Moore, Al Sharpton, Bob Beckle, Harry Reid, and a few more, need to be shipped off to Brazil.

Let them fuck that place up.

 

[Dragon]

Thanks for proving me right.

God Himself couldn't prove you right.

 

[Si modo]

What you're talking about is "conspiracy to commit murder"--the problem is someone died--even though they were supporters of Bill Ayers--he is indeed responsible for their deaths.

For instance you go into rob a bank. You really have no intention of hurting anyone--but someone gets in your way and you shoot them dead--it is MURDER--because it was in the act of committing a crime that you killed someone and you will be charged with murder also.

I understand the legalities. I'm just pointing out that there's a huge difference between that sort of thing and what actually happened with the Weathermen. A good analogy to the bank-robbery shooting would have been if one of their bombs, which was set to go off when no one was on the property, happened to catch someone working late and killed them. But the only ones killed by their bombs were three of their own number. Given that fact, it may or may not have been legally appropriate to charge surviving Weathermen with conspiracy to commit murder, but to say of Ayers on that basis "he's a murderer!" is to create a false impression. By any usual and ordinary understanding of that word, no, he isn't.

He could have been! Any of those bombs could have caught someone working late and killed them. But they didn't, as a matter of fact. Destructive, reckless, irresponsible, stupid -- all of that. But not murder.

And we do consider in this country people who try to blow up government buildings as terrorists. Timothy McVee comes to mind.

Well, McVeigh's bomb killed a lot of people, so that's not really a good comparison. But yes, if you don't have to kill or hurt people to commit an act of terrorism, then the label applies. I'm not defending planting bombs for political purposes; I think that sucks and the Weathermen were assholes to do it. I'm just trying to keep things rational and in perspective, and avoid going off the deep end.

EDIT: By the way, the contrast of your reasoned post with those of Si modo is a good illustration of just how off-the-wall she is on this subject.

To the radical left, describing something exactly as it is is 'off the wall'. I understand why, too. Bill Ayers is a terrorist pig and a piece of shit so they have to call him something other than what he is.



At this point, it's pretty funny how foolish you think everyone must be. Quite irrational.

But, whenever anyone tries to describe a circle as a square, I will post the facts about circles. Count on it.

 

[tinydancer]

What you're talking about is "conspiracy to commit murder"--the problem is someone died--even though they were supporters of Bill Ayers--he is indeed responsible for their deaths.

For instance you go into rob a bank. You really have no intention of hurting anyone--but someone gets in your way and you shoot them dead--it is MURDER--because it was in the act of committing a crime that you killed someone and you will be charged with murder also.

I understand the legalities. I'm just pointing out that there's a huge difference between that sort of thing and what actually happened with the Weathermen. A good analogy to the bank-robbery shooting would have been if one of their bombs, which was set to go off when no one was on the property, happened to catch someone working late and killed them. But the only ones killed by their bombs were three of their own number. Given that fact, it may or may not have been legally appropriate to charge surviving Weathermen with conspiracy to commit murder, but to say of Ayers on that basis "he's a murderer!" is to create a false impression. By any usual and ordinary understanding of that word, no, he isn't.

He could have been! Any of those bombs could have caught someone working late and killed them. But they didn't, as a matter of fact. Destructive, reckless, irresponsible, stupid -- all of that. But not murder.

And we do consider in this country people who try to blow up government buildings as terrorists. Timothy McVee comes to mind.

Well, McVeigh's bomb killed a lot of people, so that's not really a good comparison. But yes, if you don't have to kill or hurt people to commit an act of terrorism, then the label applies. I'm not defending planting bombs for political purposes; I think that sucks and the Weathermen were assholes to do it. I'm just trying to keep things rational and in perspective, and avoid going off the deep end.

EDIT: By the way, the contrast of your reasoned post with those of Si modo is a good illustration of just how off-the-wall she is on this subject.

Are you nuts? I lived those days. Just because Billy screwed up (really bad at pyrotechnics) doesn't excuse him from trying.

How about Bernie being thrilled that the Manson chicks stuck a fork in Tate's belly?

 

[Dragon]

Are you nuts? I lived those days. Just because Billy screwed up (really bad at pyrotechnics) doesn't excuse him from trying.

I lived those days, too.

He didn't screw up. And I wasn't excusing him, just trying to inject a little perspective and rationality. Or do you think words like "reckless, irresponsible, stupid, destructive" amount to an excuse? Do you think it's excusing him to say that planting bombs for political purposes "sucks," and that the Weathermen were "assholes" for doing it? Is it excusing him to call him a "criminal," and acknowledge that depending on the exact definition he might be considered a "terrorist"?

I did say I don't consider him a murderer. That's a long way from excusing what he did, though.

How about Bernie being thrilled that the Manson chicks stuck a fork in Tate's belly?

Pretty tasteless. I always thought she was kind of a bore and a jerk. But that was rather typical of 1960s radicals, although she was among the worst.

I'd blame Charles Manson and his chickadees for actually doing it, though, not Dohrn.