The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[foggedinn]

Many similar threads on this board. All of them end the same. Pro Israel, anti palistinian/pro palistinian, anti Israel arguments.
The question that started the thread wasn't specifically political in nature.
How long do your ancestors have to live in an area to be concidered indigenous?

 

[Shusha]

How long do your ancestors have to live in an area to be concidered indigenous?

Indigeneity is not based on length of time in a place. It is based on origins - where a culture developed and came into being.

 

[Art__Allm]

Really? Would you outline for me exactly when the law changed, and what instrument changed it?

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention was adopted in 1949.

BTW, you have ignored the most important arguments in my post.

 

[Boston1]

How long do your ancestors have to live in an area to be concidered indigenous?

Indigeneity is not based on length of time in a place. It is based on origins - where a culture developed and came into being.

Not entirely, culture isn't a prime consideration in determining if someone is an indigenous person.

For instance, we have an Arab Muslim culture, its predominant in the region but only native/indigenous to Arabia.

 

[Art__Allm]

The question that started the thread wasn't specifically political in nature.
How long do your ancestors have to live in an area to be concidered indigenous?

I think that the ancestors of Palestinians lived long enough in Palestine to be called indigenous population.

What to Zionists, most of them were not born in Palestine.

 

[Boston1]

The question that started the thread wasn't specifically political in nature.
How long do your ancestors have to live in an area to be concidered indigenous?

I think that the ancestors of Palestinians lived long enough in Palestine to be called indigenous population.

What to Zionists, most of them were not born in Palestine.

You have it exactly backwards.

The vast majority of Arab Muslims in Israel colonized the area in the early to mid 20th century.

Whereas the vast majority of Israeli's are of Judaic origins and are simply returning to their ancestral homelands.

 

[Shusha]

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention was adopted in 1949.

BTW, you have ignored the most important arguments in my post.

So, according to you, any population transfers which happened prior to 1949 were legal and all those which happened after are illegal, yes?

And that return (or compensation) for those ILLEGALLY transferred is based on what people want, yes?

 

[Boston1]

Lets just all read this so we can see what it actually says

UNR 194

Quote

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;

End Qute

This is actually one of my favorite resolutions.

First its non binding, but the Arab Muslims are constantly singing and dancing about this right of return nonsense so lets just assume it is binding for the sake of argument.

The area highlighted in blue clearly indicates that this resolution applies to those willing to "live in peace" with their neighbors. Something the Arab Muslims are clearly not willing to do. Ergo this resolution does not apply to ANY Arab Muslims until a termination can be made as to which ones are willing to live in peace and which aren't.

The first area in red clearly states "at the earliest practicable date". A beautifully ambiguous caveat that essentially means never. When will it ever be practicable to insert millions of hostile Arab Muslims into Israel ?

The second caveat outlined in red clearly states that compensation should be paid by the responsible parties. Another beautifully ambiguous requirement. So Who is responsible for the Arab Israeli war ? Maybe we should consider who declared war against who ? The Arab League openly declared war against the fledgling Israeli state and ignores all international appeals to end the violence to this day.

Quote

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, was less diplomatic and far more candid. With no patience for polite or veiled language, on the same day Israel declared its independence on May 14 1948, at a Cairo press conference reported the next day in The New York Times, Pasha repeated the Arabs' "intervention to restore law and order" revealing:

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." The League of Arab States continued to oppose peace after Israel's 1948 War of Independence:

• In July 15 1948, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 54 calling on Arab aggression to stop:

"Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine; that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine."[10]

• In October 1949, the Arab League declared that negotiation with Israel by any Arab state would be in violation of Article 18 of the Arab League.[11]
• In April 1950, it called for severance of relations with any Arab state which engaged in relations or contacts with Israel and prohibited Member states from negotiating unilateral peace with Israel.[12]
• In March 1979, it suspended Egypt's membership in the League (retroactively) from the date of its signing a peace treaty with Israel.[13]

More recently, in the Beirut Declaration of March 27-28, 2002, adopted at the height of Palestinian suicide attacks in Israel, the Arab League declared:

"We, the kings, presidents, and emirs of the Arab states meeting in the Council of the Arab League Summit in Beirut, capital of Lebanon ... have conducted a thorough assessment of the developments and challenges ... relating to the Arab region and, more specifically, to the occupied Palestinian territory. With great pride, we followed the Palestinian people's intifada and valiant resistance. ... We address a greeting of pride and honour to the Palestinian people's steadfastness and valiant intifada against the Israeli occupation and its destructive war machine. We greet with honour and pride the valiant martyrs of the intifada."[14]

The Arab League, which has systematically opposed and blocked peace efforts for nearly 67 years, and is in a declared state-of-war with Israel, is now deemed by the U.S. States Department an organization that can contribute to peace in the Middle East.

This document uses extensive links via the Internet. If you experience a broken link, please note the 5 digit number (xxxxx) at the end of the URL and use it as a Keyword in the Search Box atwww.MEfacts.com.


End Quote

Which makes the Arab League 100% responsible for the entire refugee problem from beginning to end

In which case it is the Arab League who owe reparations to all concerned

BOOM

 

[P F Tinmore]

Lets just all read this so we can see what it actually says

UNR 194

Quote

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;

End Qute

This is actually one of my favorite resolutions.

First its non binding, but the Arab Muslims are constantly singing and dancing about this right of return nonsense so lets just assume it is binding for the sake of argument.

The area highlighted in blue clearly indicates that this resolution applies to those willing to "live in peace" with their neighbors. Something the Arab Muslims are clearly not willing to do. Ergo this resolution does not apply to ANY Arab Muslims until a termination can be made as to which ones are willing to live in peace and which aren't.

The first area in red clearly states "at the earliest practicable date". A beautifully ambiguous caveat that essentially means never. When will it ever be practicable to insert millions of hostile Arab Muslims into Israel ?

The second caveat outlined in red clearly states that compensation should be paid by the responsible parties. Another beautifully ambiguous requirement. So Who is responsible for the Arab Israeli war ? Maybe we should consider who declared war against who ? The Arab League openly declared war against the fledgling Israeli state and ignores all international appeals to end the violence to this day.

Quote

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, was less diplomatic and far more candid. With no patience for polite or veiled language, on the same day Israel declared its independence on May 14 1948, at a Cairo press conference reported the next day in The New York Times, Pasha repeated the Arabs' "intervention to restore law and order" revealing:

"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." The League of Arab States continued to oppose peace after Israel's 1948 War of Independence:

• In July 15 1948, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 54 calling on Arab aggression to stop:

"Taking into consideration that the Provisional Government of Israel has indicated its acceptance in principle of a prolongation of the truce in Palestine; that the States members of the Arab League have rejected successive appeals of the United Nations Mediator, and of the Security Council in its resolution 53 (1948) of 7 July 1948, for the prolongation of the truce in Palestine; and that there has consequently developed a renewal of hostilities in Palestine."[10]

• In October 1949, the Arab League declared that negotiation with Israel by any Arab state would be in violation of Article 18 of the Arab League.[11]
• In April 1950, it called for severance of relations with any Arab state which engaged in relations or contacts with Israel and prohibited Member states from negotiating unilateral peace with Israel.[12]
• In March 1979, it suspended Egypt's membership in the League (retroactively) from the date of its signing a peace treaty with Israel.[13]

More recently, in the Beirut Declaration of March 27-28, 2002, adopted at the height of Palestinian suicide attacks in Israel, the Arab League declared:

"We, the kings, presidents, and emirs of the Arab states meeting in the Council of the Arab League Summit in Beirut, capital of Lebanon ... have conducted a thorough assessment of the developments and challenges ... relating to the Arab region and, more specifically, to the occupied Palestinian territory. With great pride, we followed the Palestinian people's intifada and valiant resistance. ... We address a greeting of pride and honour to the Palestinian people's steadfastness and valiant intifada against the Israeli occupation and its destructive war machine. We greet with honour and pride the valiant martyrs of the intifada."[14]

The Arab League, which has systematically opposed and blocked peace efforts for nearly 67 years, and is in a declared state-of-war with Israel, is now deemed by the U.S. States Department an organization that can contribute to peace in the Middle East.

This document uses extensive links via the Internet. If you experience a broken link, please note the 5 digit number (xxxxx) at the end of the URL and use it as a Keyword in the Search Box atwww.MEfacts.com.


End Quote

Which makes the Arab League 100% responsible for the entire refugee problem from beginning to end

In which case it is the Arab League who owe reparations to all concerned

BOOM

MEfacts is an Israeli propaganda site.

 

[montelatici]

The question that started the thread wasn't specifically political in nature.
How long do your ancestors have to live in an area to be concidered indigenous?

I think that the ancestors of Palestinians lived long enough in Palestine to be called indigenous population.

What to Zionists, most of them were not born in Palestine.

You have it exactly backwards.

The vast majority of Arab Muslims in Israel colonized the area in the early to mid 20th century.

Whereas the vast majority of Israeli's are of Judaic origins and are simply returning to their ancestral homelands.

The vast majority of the Jews that invaded Palestine were Europeans. The Palestinians, Muslims and Christians and a tiny minority consisting of the native Arab Jews,are the indigenous people. Changing religion doesn't change the people. Nothing ancestral in Palestine for Europeans.

UNITED
NATIONS
A

• 
  General Assembly

A/364
3 September 1947
OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE SECOND SESSION OF
THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

(b)IMMIGRATION AND NATURAL INCREASE

15. These changes in the population have been brought about by two forces: natural increase and immigration. The great increase in the Jewish population is due in the main to immigration. From 1920 to 1946, the total number of recorded Jewish immigrants into Palestine was about 376,000, or an average of over 8,000 per year. The flow has not been regular, however, being fairly high in 1924 to 1926, falling in the next few years (there was a net emigration in 1927) and rising to even higher levels between 1933 and 1936 as a result of the Nazi persecution in Europe. Between the census year of 1931 and the year 1936, the proportion of Jews to the total population rose from 18 per cent to nearly 30 per cent.

16. The Arab population has increased almost entirely as a result of an excess of births over deaths. Indeed, the natural rate of increase of Moslem Arabs in Palestine is the highest in recorded statistics,1 a phenomenon explained by very high fertility rates coupled with a marked decline in death rates as a result of improved conditions of life and public health, The natural rate of increase of Jews is also relatively high, but is conditioned by a favorable age distribution of the population due to the high rate of immigration.

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/07175DE9FA2DE563852568D3006E10F3

 

[Shusha]

Here is a good summary of what I mean.

Just a few clips from the essay:

The expulsion of Palestinian Arabs by Israel is today portrayed as some sort of especially wicked and unique evil in history. One gets the impression that Israel, in making the decision during the war to expel Palestinian Arabs, crossed a line that nations should never cross. But when analyzing the expulsions in their historic setting rather than superimposing onto them present-day norms, it becomes immediately apparent that Israel was taking their lead for solving ethnic conflict from the rest of the world. Population transfers and expulsions had been taking place for decades all over the globe before Israel resorted to the same tactic as a last resort in war.

"The purpose of a population transfer is not to remove a high percentage of a minority group from the country of its residence, but to remove a minority problem, to eliminate a threat to the future. There are only two alternatives. In countries where there is reasonable hope for a peaceable life for minority groups within the state-nation and where a transfer is not absolutely essential, maximum security and rights must be guaranteed to the minorities. But if population transfer is deemed unavoidable, there must be no trace of the collective minority existence left, no stuff for the resurgence of the minority problem. There is no third solution."

 

[Boston1]

More lies from Monty. But notice that he/she is only able to find support for that nonsense in just one small segment of Israeli history.

IE by cherrypicking certain years of data. Classic cognitive dissonance

Lets take a broader look at the same data and notice that only about 35% of returnees came from Europe ;--)

And since Numbnutts is constantly using Wiki I guess that leaves me free to as well.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwivnZu2lPHLAhXotoMKHUkhBkwQFggoMAA&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel&usg=AFQjCNGHoJKzaVHxwW1a6jTRlNSMkLShSw&sig2=Ts9l2pimYsJ6GrshsB1iSw&bvm=bv.118443451,d.amc

LOL

Once again there Monty ole been you are exposed on the hasbara you run up that flag pole.

 

[montelatici]

Just facts Boston, you just post propaganda. I never post Wiki links as you well know.

About 95% of the Zionist invaders came from Europe or North America.

 

[Hollie]

Just facts Boston, you just post propaganda. I never post Wiki links as you well know.

About 95% of the Zionist invaders came from Europe or North America.

You're still befuddled about the mechanisms that preceded the Jewish return to what became the state of Israel. It was not an invasion. It was a process that was established after the collapse of another failed Islamist caliphate which, as was typical, just another oppressive, Islamist apartheid dictatorship.

The collapse of the Ottoman Empire was a long overdue end to the invasion and colonial project so typical for Arab-Moslem dictatorships.

Really, sweetie. You should take some take to peel back the layers of ignorance and self-hate that cause you to repeat your tired, silly slogans.

 

[Boston1]

Just facts Boston, you just post propaganda. I never post Wiki links as you well know.

About 95% of the Zionist invaders came from Europe or North America.

Facts my ass.

95% of returnees in one very specific year. Add all years to present and the story is completely different.

IE you are cherrypicking a specific year or couple of years so you can try and delegitimize returnees as all being from Europe.

The truth is only about 35% returned from Europe. Most returned from ME countries when they were expelled by the Arab Muslims and forced to leave everything they owned behind.

I wonder if you even know what cognitive dissonance means ?

 

[montelatici]

The fact is 95% of the Zionist invaders of Palestine were from Europe or the Americas. That Arab Jews from Muslim nations after the establishment of Israel is another matter.

Using terms you learned from and don't quite understand, just makes you appear foolish, punk.

 

[Boston1]

The fact is 95% of the Zionist invaders of Palestine were from Europe or the Americas. That Arab Jews from Muslim nations after the establishment of Israel is another matter.

Using terms you learned from and don't quite understand, just makes you appear foolish, punk.

You are lying.

The fact is that only 35% of returnees were from Europe.

From
Statistical Abstract of Israel, 2009, CBS. "Table 2.24 – Jews, by country of origin and age" (PDF). Retrieved 22 March 2010.

Jewish Population of Israel by paternal country of origin[24]

TOTAL

5,523,700 ................ 100%

From Europe, America and Oceania by own or paternal country of origin:

1,939,400............. 35.11%

Today 70% of Israeli's were born in Israel

 

[Phoenall]

The Jewish people originated in Israel. Trying to deny that is just foolish.

You are confusing a religious group with a people. BTW, Christians also originated in Palestine, Jesus Christ was the first Christian Palestinian.

Does this mean that any Christian in any part of the world has the right to "return" to Palestine?

WRONG he was a Jewish Rabbi who taught the Torah. He was never a Christian while he was alive, the first Christians surfaced in the 4C C.E. and they originated in Rome. If they can show a tie to the land and having once lived there as indigenous population then yes they can. Unlike the arab muslims who had never even seen Palestine and claimed the new build in Tel aviv was their home and the toilet window was their bedroom.


The Jews have the right because international laws of 1917, 1923, 1924 and 1949 gave them that right, something you seem to deny exists because it would burst your bubble

 

[Shusha]

The Jews have the right because international laws of 1917, 1923, 1924 and 1949 gave them that right, something you seem to deny exists because it would burst your bubble

Yes, and remember those international laws specifically state that they grant rights to the Jewish people based on their pre-existing claim as indigenous peoples whose place of origin is on those territories.

 

[Phoenall]

If Israel ignored international law and deliberately committed the crime of ethnic cleansing and you are attempting to put it "right", why are you not ALSO demanding that all the other ethnic cleansings which occurred around that time are corrected?

What do you mean with "around the same time"?

Why are you not demanding that 15 million Germans be returned to their homelands in Eastern and Central Europe?

Well, this happened before the law was changed, and many German refugees still fight for their right to return to their homes. Who wanted already returned. Most of them do not want to return to Poland, etc., they just want compensations for the stolen property.

Your arguments are silly.

Imagine you steal somebody's property and refuse to return it, because in the past other guys did the same.

Why are you not demanding that the Latvians, the Estonians and Ukrainians be returned to the Soviet Union?

Do they want to return? If the person that was robbed or expelled does not sue the perpetrator, then there will be no legal procedure.
It is obvious that anybody who wanted to return to Ukraine, Estonia or Latvia has already done this.

Why are you not demanding that the Japanese be returned to Korea? And for the Turkish and Greek Cypriots be brought back to their homes? Why are you not demanding that Pakistan and India and Bangladesh return all of those uprooted in the ethnic cleansings be returned to their original homes? Along with all their descendants?

If there are people who want to return to their homes, I am supporting them.
The question ist: Do they want?

If Israel ignored international law and deliberately committed the crime of ethnic cleansing and you are attempting to put it "right", why are you not ALSO demanding that all the other ethnic cleansings which occurred around that time are corrected?

What do you mean with "around the same time"?

Why are you not demanding that 15 million Germans be returned to their homelands in Eastern and Central Europe?

Well, this happened before the law was changed, and German refugees still fight for their right to return to their homes.

You arguments are silly.

Imagine you steal somebody's property and refuse to return it, because in the past other guys did the same.

Why are you not demanding that the Latvians, the Estonians and Ukrainians be returned to the Soviet Union?

Do they want to return? If the person that was robbed or expelled does not sue the perpetrator, then there will be no legal procedure.
It is obvious that anybody who wanted to return to Ukraine, Estonia or Latvia has already done this.

Why are you claiming that Israel ignored international law and yet all of these other nations did not?

Well, I am repeating it again.

If there are people who want to return to their homes, I am supporting them.

Do they want to return?

If the person that was robbed or expelled does not sue the perpetrator, then there will be no legal procedure.

It is obvious that anybody who wanted to return to the mentioned countries has already done this. There are no laws that prohibit that.

When was the law changed as islamonazi's are still ethnically cleansing whole swathes of land of its indigenous populations. And a proper law as well not your usual UN resolution.

The only people you are for moving "back" to their lands happen to be islamonazi terrorists that were evicted under International law and the Geneva conventions as being enemy combatants. Now about these fictional khazars any chance of a scientific link to them prior to the mid 20C ?