The Obamacare We Are In For

[TENAC]

This is a great article by Walter Williams.

You guys might have seen, if so, disregard.

Sweden's Government Health Care
by Walter E. Williams

Government health care advocates used to sing the praises of Britain's National Health Service (NHS). That's until its poor delivery of health care services became known. A recent study by David Green and Laura Casper, "Delay, Denial and Dilution," written for the London-based Institute of Economic Affairs, concludes that the NHS health care services are just about the worst in the developed world. The head of the World Health Organization calculated that Britain has as many as 25,000 unnecessary cancer deaths a year because of under-provision of care. Twelve percent of specialists surveyed admitted refusing kidney dialysis to patients suffering from kidney failure because of limits on cash. Waiting lists for medical treatment have become so long that there are now "waiting lists" for the waiting list.

Walter E. Williams : Sweden's Government Health Care - Townhall.com

Rest of the article at the link.

This is what we are in for. There is not ONE socialized healthcare taht has not followed this pattern.

 

[editec]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

 

[WillowTree]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

good answer! I don't care either!

 

[PoliticalChic]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

Total left-wing bs.
How Big Is the Problem? In 2005, according to Census Bureau data:

More than 84 percent (247.3 million) of the 293 million U.S. residents were privately insured or enrolled in a government health program, such as Medicare, Medicaid or State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP).
An additional 10 million to 14 million adults and children qualified for government programs but have not enrolled, experts estimate.
Another 17 million live in households with annual incomes above $50,000 and could likely afford health insurance.
By these estimates, nearly 10 percent theoretically have access but have chosen to forgo insurance. The remaining portion (about 6 percent of the population) earn less than $50,000 annually.

Crisis of the Uninsured: 2006*Update - Brief Analysis #568

 

[midcan5]

Another wingnut post from Townhall, aka corporate tools shop. I love that, 'Dr. Williams serves on the faculty of George Mason University as John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics.' The irony that the wingnut is even in a chair of a right wing corporate sponsor is sort of funny.

I would make a bet, if the choice were given, Swedish type health care would be voted in democratically in the good old USofA. But scare tactics and other nonsensical spin from the wingnut press corp tools makes good information hard to come by. Consider that this nation ranks 42nd in life expectancy and we pay the most. Something is wrong to all except wingnuts like Williams.

"The United States ranks an astonishing 42nd in life expectancy, behind Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and all the countries of Western Europe, and also Israel, Greece, Singapore, Costa Rica and South Korea. The US spends twice as much money per capita on health care as any of these countries, but its citizens live shorter lives."

U.S. ranks 42nd in life expectancy - Health care- msnbc.com

Swedish health care - SWEDEN.SE

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

 

[PoliticalChic]

Another wingnut post from Townhall, aka corporate tools shop. I love that, 'Dr. Williams serves on the faculty of George Mason University as John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics.' The irony that the wingnut is even in a chair of a right wing corporate sponsor is sort of funny.

I would make a bet, if the choice were given, Swedish type health care would be voted in democratically in the good old USofA. But scare tactics and other nonsensical spin from the wingnut press corp tools makes good information hard to come by. Consider that this nation ranks 42nd in life expectancy and we pay the most. Something is wrong to all except wingnuts like Williams.

"The United States ranks an astonishing 42nd in life expectancy, behind Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and all the countries of Western Europe, and also Israel, Greece, Singapore, Costa Rica and South Korea. The US spends twice as much money per capita on health care as any of these countries, but its citizens live shorter lives."

U.S. ranks 42nd in life expectancy - Health care- msnbc.com

Swedish health care - SWEDEN.SE

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

So when will you be moving, you know, to save your life?

 

[Otter_Creek]

U.S. ranks 42nd in life expectancy - Health care- msnbc.com

MSNBC???? Oh it's got to be true.

I would have died years ago if I had to go to a medical clinic like they have in Canada.
Why I know?, I have a friend in Canada that tells me how lucky I am that we don't have the healthcare they're stuck, suffering with.

 

[Indiana Oracle]

To that ultimate question, the answer is almost always: change to be the way we think; what is now is wrong. It is seldom that clear cut. Orson Welles: "If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story".

 

[TENAC]

Another wingnut post from Townhall, aka corporate tools shop. I love that, 'Dr. Williams serves on the faculty of George Mason University as John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics.' The irony that the wingnut is even in a chair of a right wing corporate sponsor is sort of funny.

I would make a bet, if the choice were given, Swedish type health care would be voted in democratically in the good old USofA. But scare tactics and other nonsensical spin from the wingnut press corp tools makes good information hard to come by. Consider that this nation ranks 42nd in life expectancy and we pay the most. Something is wrong to all except wingnuts like Williams.

"The United States ranks an astonishing 42nd in life expectancy, behind Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and all the countries of Western Europe, and also Israel, Greece, Singapore, Costa Rica and South Korea. The US spends twice as much money per capita on health care as any of these countries, but its citizens live shorter lives."

U.S. ranks 42nd in life expectancy - Health care- msnbc.com

Swedish health care - SWEDEN.SE

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

Do you honestly know why the US ranks as it does in healthcare globally? I will give you a bit to figure it out, but likely you dont want to.

 

[Maple]

Although I agree that we need to make healthcare affordable for all Americans I do not agree with a socialised health care system that is present in Europe and Canada. Every time I have talked to people from either europe or Canada they tell me that their health care is the worst and to never let the U.S go down that path. I think that this would be better handled at the state level and not at the federal level.

It will require that everyone pays for health insurance so that everyone's premium will be reduced. So many people today, even the one's who can afford health care, don't take it out and depend on others to pay when they are injured or sick. A young 20 ish person who is in good health can pick up a major medical policy for $50-80 per month, there is no reason they are not doing it.

In Colorado it is mandatory to have auto insurance, if you don't, there are heavy penalties to pay should you be involved in an accident. If you are pulled over, you are immediately asked for proof of insurance, if you do not have it, you will pay penalties and given community service that you have to complete. You will also be forced to immediately get auto insurance.

Auto insurance can be expensive, but this was done to bring down the costs of this insurance for all of us in the state of Colorado.

 

[Annie]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

You've got a point. The best idea is to make sure people understand what socialized health care is like in practice, then we can determine for ourselves, which is in our best interests. Some poor access for all OR those that can afford superior care, do so; while providing less expensive alternatives to the emergency rooms currently utilized by so many without insurance. Guess which make the most sense?

 

[Maple]

In Italy a gallon of gasoline averages around $8.00 per gallon because out of this they pay for Health Care, somehow I don't think this is the road we want to go down.

 

[TENAC]

PChick has it right in her post.

The 40 million figure has been used for its shock value forever, as inaccurate as it is. Even if it were true, if 40 million were without healthcare, then 270 million HAVE healthcare. Use her numbers and it is more ridiculous.

You wonder why libs dont start their argument, "Only 270 million Americans have healthcare........"

 

[Tech_Esq]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

Big assumption there! You're assuming you're going to get some health care if it is socialized. That really depends on what you need care for doesn't it? Especially at your age, this will only become more important to you.

If you need expensive therapy or surgery, the government may decide it isn't cost effective to provide such things to someone your age.

See what you are really buying into is an illusion of health care. They'll nationalize it. Make it a single payer system, chase all the best and brightest from the profession and then ration what's left. So, you might get what you need before you die or not. Don't worry though, it will run at least as well as the DMV.

 

[TENAC]

Keep this little gem in mind when comparing the US healthcare system with the rest of the globe.

A 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report claims that "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.[4] And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates

You can see how the numbers get skewed here. But every msm outlet reports the we have an infant mortality rate equal to that of Zimbabwe or some such country.

It is false.

I dont apologize for the United States holding its standards higher than other nations. We should. The US has always placed a higher value on life than most other nations. So this shouldnt be too surprising.

Now, a typical obama move will be to move the US away from our standards and adopt the standards of the WHO and then proclaim his administration has lowered the infant mortality rates and claim some hollow victory.

It would be the same consequence to legalize drugs, then claim you brought down the crime rate.

Healthcare stats can be the most deceiving and easily manipulated. Read through it all. Used to be in orthopedics, the worst thing for an orthopod to have happen is a surgical patient with a limp! Bad advertising for his surgical expertise!

PPOs HMOs all of managed care has done much to increase the cost of healthcare.

Group Insurance is the biggest culprit of all.

Right now, if I do not get what I want out of my healthcare insurace, I can fire the company tomorrow and rehire another company. If my health insurance company jacks up my rates, I fire them (stop paying the premium). Once obamacare (govt healthcare) is in place, you cant fire the govt. You, we, mine are stuck. You will have lost the greatest amount of freedom to date in the history of our country, and the libs are willing to gamble with YOUR health.

This is scarier than you might know.

 

[midcan5]

So when will you be moving, you know, to save your life?

So healthcare for all Americans doesn't concern you? Just like a conservative to be satisfied with less than best.

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
Health Care Statistics | Health Care Problems
NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage

 

[editec]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

Big assumption there! You're assuming you're going to get some health care if it is socialized. That really depends on what you need care for doesn't it? Especially at your age, this will only become more important to you.

Since I have no access to HC now, what difference would that make to me?

If you need expensive therapy or surgery, the government may decide it isn't cost effective to provide such things to someone your age.

And how is that different than what I have now?

See what you are really buying into is an illusion of health care.

No, actually I'm not.

I've written reams about why single payer health care insurance won't work to our advantage, and about the shortcomings of socialized medicine, too.

But I am telling you that the fact that fifty million or more of us have either no health care, or health care that is becoming far too expensive and increasing more difficult to get, too, is going to drive this nation into some kind of socialized medicine.

Obviously if you have no HC coverage, something bad is better than nothing at all.

And with each layoff, and with each failing of the private HC industry to treat their cusomers with respect, the political pressure to FIX THIS CAPITALISTIC FUCKING MESS is going to increase

They'll nationalize it. Make it a single payer system, chase all the best and brightest from the profession and then ration what's left.

Yup. But wait, you forgot the period when the single payer makes the best and brightest even more outrageously weathy than they are already.

THEN the rationing will commence...once the market drives up the cost of HC to levels even higher than it is now...when HC is costing us not 17% of the GNP, but 25% of it.

So, you might get what you need before you die or not. Don't worry though, it will run at least as well as the DMV.

One would hope it works that well, Tech.

After all, I HAVE a license, dude.

 

[Cecilie1200]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

If you're so selfish and self-absorbed that you don't care that the healthcare I pay for is downgraded because I refuse to buy YOU healthcare, would you mind telling me where you get off demanding that I be any less selfish and care whether or not YOU have healthcare? Why should I put YOUR interests ahead of mine, especially when you just got done telling me you feel you have the right to deliberately harm me for your own gain?

I say screw you, buy your own or die, because the world doesn't need self-centered me-monkeys like you.

 

[Tech_Esq]

BAD health care access is better than NO Health care access.

You don't want people like me to want something like socialized medicine?

Create a system which gives we 50,000,000 Americans (and rising every day) SOME ACCESS to HC.

Otherwise why should WE CARE if YOUR health care isn't as good as it was before it was socialized?

Seriously...think about it.

Why would I put YOUR interest ahead of mine?

You don't do that for me, do you? You're putting your interests ahead of mine, aren't you?

So why would I care if your health care wasn't as good, if you having HC depended on my NOT having it?

Since I have no access to HC now, what difference would that make to me?



And how is that different than what I have now?



No, actually I'm not.

I've written reams about why single payer health care insurance won't work to our advantage, and about the shortcomings of socialized medicine, too.

But I am telling you that the fact that fifty million or more of us have either no health care, or health care that is becoming far too expensive and increasing more difficult to get, too, is going to drive this nation into some kind of socialized medicine.

Obviously if you have no HC coverage, something bad is better than nothing at all.

And with each layoff, and with each failing of the private HC industry to treat their cusomers with respect, the political pressure to FIX THIS CAPITALISTIC FUCKING MESS is going to increase






Yup. But wait, you forgot the period when the single payer makes the best and brightest even more outrageously weathy than they are already.

THEN the rationing will commence...once the market drives up the cost of HC to levels even higher than it is now...when HC is costing us not 17% of the GNP, but 25% of it.

So, you might get what you need before you die or not. Don't worry though, it will run at least as well as the DMV.

One would hope it works that well, Tech.

After all, I HAVE a license, dude.

Unless you have some bizarre circumstances going on, you can have health insurance if you want it. I pay for it myself. I know others on here that do as well. My employer offered some outrageously expensive insurance that would have cost me triple what I pay per month for insurance.

Now I pay $400 per month for a family plan with dental coverage too. So, I don't know what you have going on, but insurance is affordable and available. I'm not a fan of the system as it stands. I think it needs a lot of reform, but citing incorrect statistics is not going to make it better. If you've looked at this issue as much as you say you have, you know there are not 46 million people that go year after year without health care coverage.

In economics they refer to the concept of "frictional unemployment" that's the number of people who are unemployed because they are either moving, changing jobs or careers, retraining etc. etc. This concept is clearly applicable to the health insurance situation, since it is tied to our jobs. There is a certain percentage of people that are "frictionally uninsured."

There is an additional percentage that are uninsured because they are "young and invincible"....or so they think. Better to spend that money for beer on Friday than insurance all month. The only insurance I maintained when I was young was car insurance. Then there are the people that qualify for a government program but have not entered it for whatever reason. (They don't know about it, they dislike government assistance in any form etc.).

I'm probably skipping a few, but you get the idea. It's a free country, people don't have to maintain insurance if they don't want to. But, then at the bottom, there is a residual of people who want insurance, but don't qualify for a government program, insurance is not offered by their employer and/or it's too expensive to purchase.

If the choice is spend Trillions to change to a more fucked up system, or pay for health insurance for those people, I'm all for just paying for a cpl million people to have health coverage.

 

[Cecilie1200]

U.S. ranks 42nd in life expectancy - Health care- msnbc.com

MSNBC???? Oh it's got to be true.

I would have died years ago if I had to go to a medical clinic like they have in Canada.
Why I know?, I have a friend in Canada that tells me how lucky I am that we don't have the healthcare they're stuck, suffering with.

I'm so tired of hearing about life expectancy like that has a single damned thing to do with our healthcare delivery system. It doesn't. Life expectancy is much more a function of other factors in any first-tier country, such as race. The US has a lower life expectancy overall than other economically- and medically-comparable nations because unlike them, it doesn't have a mostly homogenous population.