The Not So Gradual Erosion of the 4th Amendment at the Hands of Well Intentioned Laws

George Costanza

A Friendly Liberal
Mar 10, 2009
5,188
1,160
155
Los Angeles area.
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Who is in favor of drunk or unlicensed drivers? How many times has some moron just sat there in front of you yapping on a cell phone when the light turns green? Why shouldn't people convicted of crimes have to submit to searches without probable cause - they're CRIMINALS, aren't they?

Well, in spite of how "good" all of these laws sound, they all have consequences that extend far beyond the face value of what they purport to accomplish. All of these laws have one thing in common - they give law enforcement the opportunity to observe things that are personal to citizens that they would otherwise not be able to observe.

Your friendly law enforcement officer at the conveniently located checkpoint has much more on his/her mind than just checking for licenses or drunk drivers. They are also looking for contraband in plain sight or anything that will give them a wedge into the interior of the car to search it. You and I get stopped at a checkpoint. Assuming we have not been drinking and we have our licenses and proof of insurance, that's pretty much it. Young, Hispanic kid with a bald head and tats gets stopped at a check point, different story. He may have his license and insurance papers and he may be totally sober. He will be asked: "Do you have anything illegal in the car, there?" When he says no, the next question is automatic: "Mind if I take a look?" If he says OK, he has just given consent to search. It they find anything, game over. And remember - but for the checkpoint, they would never have had the opportunity to be talking to him because they would have had no reason to stop him.

A person who gets pulled over for talking on a cell phone is subject to the same type of questions resulting in a "consensual search" of the car. Cars can contain a lot of things. On another thread, I mentioned a client of mine who got pulled over for cell phone usage. When the cop asks, "mind if I take a look inside the car?" what are most people going to say - NO? My client had methampetamine in his pocket and a strike prior. He got 32 months in state prison. If there had not been a cell phone law, he probably never would have been stopped.

It used to be that search and seizure conditions could only be attached to probation where they were reasonably related to the original crime. Drug possession, theft, concealed weapon, etc., are crimes from which it can reasonably be inferred that the person involved may be the type of person who would hide contraband on his person. Hence, there is a logical reason to impose a S&S condition on his probationary status. Well, that has all changed. Current practice calls for S&S conditions regardless of the nature of the original crime.

So what happens now? Every time there is any contact whatsoever between law enforcement and a citizen, the first question out of the cop's mouth (following the obligatory and TOTALLY disingenuous, "How's it going?") is: "You on probation or parole?" If the person says yes, it's game over - he is searched on the spot.

What's the point of this lengthy rant?, I hear you cry. It is this. When you applaud such things as check points and the other ruses mentioned in the first paragraph, know that there is much more at stake than it would at first glance appear. What's at stake, my friends, is the status of the Fourth Amendment in this great land.

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.
 
Didn't even read you post,

BUT:

If our Amendments ARE being "eroded?"

It is NOT by "well intentioned" folks.

NOW, I'll go back and see what you posted! ;)
 
I'm not at all convinced of the "well intentioned" part.

Well, I was being charitable - and was generally referring to the good citizens who are in favor us such laws without having the slightest idea what they really mean.

When it comes to those enacting them, of course not - they are nothing but a bunch of disingenous jerks.
 
seat belt stops.
helmet laws
no smoking in all buildings other than, so far, residences
attempts to regulate certain foods other than purity
the list goes on and on.

Personally I see reasons for abiding by the intentions, but not laws or attempts at laws.
 
Okay, now I've read it and all I can say is:

Boo FUCKING Hoo.

I'm a criminal. I smoke up and I carry it with me.

Guess what?

I can't AFFORD you.

IF I'm caught, that's MY fault. iow my bad

But guess what?

I'm not some flipping Menace to Society.

Cops aren't Out To Get Me.

If I'm STOOPID? They WILL get me,

and quite frankly,

if I wasn't ready to do the time? I wouldn't do the crime.

Say whatever you want, but the FACT and the TRUTH of the matter is:

Folks that ARE innocent?

Don't get hassled and they don't go to jail.
 
Okay, now I've read it and all I can say is:

Boo FUCKING Hoo.

I'm a criminal. I smoke up and I carry it with me.

Guess what?

I can't AFFORD you.

IF I'm caught, that's MY fault. iow my bad

But guess what?

I'm not some flipping Menace to Society.

Cops aren't Out To Get Me.

If I'm STOOPID? They WILL get me,

and quite frankly,

if I wasn't ready to do the time? I wouldn't do the crime.

Say whatever you want, but the FACT and the TRUTH of the matter is:
Folks that ARE innocent?

Don't get hassled and they don't go to jail.

Perhaps the 4th Amendment should be changed to read: "The right of people who are innocent of any crime to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated but, if they are in fact guilty of a crime, then screw them - they can be searched at will, without any type of probable cause whatsoever."

Only problem with that is, you can't tell whether someone is guilty or innocent until AFTER the search has been conducted.
 
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Who is in favor of drunk or unlicensed drivers? How many times has some moron just sat there in front of you yapping on a cell phone when the light turns green? Why shouldn't people convicted of crimes have to submit to searches without probable cause - they're CRIMINALS, aren't they?

Well, in spite of how "good" all of these laws sound, they all have consequences that extend far beyond the face value of what they purport to accomplish. All of these laws have one thing in common - they give law enforcement the opportunity to observe things that are personal to citizens that they would otherwise not be able to observe.

Your friendly law enforcement officer at the conveniently located checkpoint has much more on his/her mind than just checking for licenses or drunk drivers. They are also looking for contraband in plain sight or anything that will give them a wedge into the interior of the car to search it. You and I get stopped at a checkpoint. Assuming we have not been drinking and we have our licenses and proof of insurance, that's pretty much it. Young, Hispanic kid with a bald head and tats gets stopped at a check point, different story. He may have his license and insurance papers and he may be totally sober. He will be asked: "Do you have anything illegal in the car, there?" When he says no, the next question is automatic: "Mind if I take a look?" If he says OK, he has just given consent to search. It they find anything, game over. And remember - but for the checkpoint, they would never have had the opportunity to be talking to him because they would have had no reason to stop him.

A person who gets pulled over for talking on a cell phone is subject to the same type of questions resulting in a "consensual search" of the car. Cars can contain a lot of things. On another thread, I mentioned a client of mine who got pulled over for cell phone usage. When the cop asks, "mind if I take a look inside the car?" what are most people going to say - NO? My client had methampetamine in his pocket and a strike prior. He got 32 months in state prison. If there had not been a cell phone law, he probably never would have been stopped.

It used to be that search and seizure conditions could only be attached to probation where they were reasonably related to the original crime. Drug possession, theft, concealed weapon, etc., are crimes from which it can reasonably be inferred that the person involved may be the type of person who would hide contraband on his person. Hence, there is a logical reason to impose a S&S condition on his probationary status. Well, that has all changed. Current practice calls for S&S conditions regardless of the nature of the original crime.

So what happens now? Every time there is any contact whatsoever between law enforcement and a citizen, the first question out of the cop's mouth (following the obligatory and TOTALLY disingenuous, "How's it going?") is: "You on probation or parole?" If the person says yes, it's game over - he is searched on the spot.

What's the point of this lengthy rant?, I hear you cry. It is this. When you applaud such things as check points and the other ruses mentioned in the first paragraph, know that there is much more at stake than it would at first glance appear. What's at stake, my friends, is the status of the Fourth Amendment in this great land.

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.

Thank you George! Great post!

Our pea brain friends on the right believe they are tough on crime, but all they are tough on is freedom and liberty. What totally floors me is they have no problem calling you, me or any liberal a 'Statist' if we support a government program intended to help Americans. And they constantly show utter contempt and disdain for government. It is so inept that it can't chew gum and walk at the same time...BUT when it comes to arresting, incarcerating and executing human beings; government is our benign friend. It suddenly becomes flawlessly efficient, totally competent, always just, fair and NEVER EVER heavy handed or deserving of scrutiny ...

This is how the right sees the criminal justice system...

20775-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Friendly-Male-Police-Officer-In-A-Blue-Uniform-And-White-Gloves-Holding-His-Hand-Up-And-Blowing-A-Whistle-While-Directint-Traffic.jpg


It is the WORST form of Statism, because NO totalitarian state would ever succeed without citizens that carry their views...

Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
Edmund Burke
 
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? ...

...

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.

George, where do you live? These are all laws that deal with the privilege of having a driver's license. Do you consider driving a civil right?

I know Dude and others have cluelessly overlooked this obvious fact. But I have faith in you. You know what is really bothering you. Spit it out.
 
seat belt stops.
helmet laws
no smoking in all buildings other than, so far, residences
attempts to regulate certain foods other than purity
the list goes on and on.

Personally I see reasons for abiding by the intentions, but not laws or attempts at laws.

what is the logic behind linking all these examples of laws and are they all laws and not regulations?
 
---

---
It is the WORST form of Statism, because NO totalitarian state would ever succeed without citizens that carry their views...

Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
Edmund Burke

I don't believe Statism exists with any degree of substance in American politics. Who advocates this...

Sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The concept of statism, which as seen as synonymous with the concept of nation, and corporatism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline.[3]
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism


...I ask because many have implied the above is a widely held view held of others here and around the nation.
 
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? ...

...

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.

George, where do you live? These are all laws that deal with the privilege of having a driver's license. Do you consider driving a civil right?

I know Dude and others have cluelessly overlooked this obvious fact. But I have faith in you. You know what is really bothering you. Spit it out.

Checkpoints are one thing, we all live with them, and often they ARE looking for certain things (i.e- valid inspection stickers at the beginning of a month, DUI's around holidays etc.) but I have a problem when police stop people for clearly bogus reasons. It happens quite a bit in my town, and when you drive by, you would think they just stopped John Dillinger; 4-5 squad cars followed by the drug dog van. They immediately 'ask' to search, but it is NOT a question, it is going to happen. It is almost always teens, blacks or someone in a older vehicle...
 
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? ...

...

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.

George, where do you live? These are all laws that deal with the privilege of having a driver's license. Do you consider driving a civil right?

I know Dude and others have cluelessly overlooked this obvious fact. But I have faith in you. You know what is really bothering you. Spit it out.

Checkpoints are one thing, we all live with them, and often they ARE looking for certain things (i.e- valid inspection stickers at the beginning of a month, DUI's around holidays etc.) but I have a problem when police stop people for clearly bogus reasons. It happens quite a bit in my town, and when you drive by, you would think they just stopped John Dillinger; 4-5 squad cars followed by the drug dog van. They immediately 'ask' to search, but it is NOT a question, it is going to happen. It is almost always teens, blacks or someone in a older vehicle...

I moved to the fascist State of SoCal. It is fascist because both progressives and conservatives have gone whacko here. Being a liberal I was aware of this before I moved out west. I have had an education that is priceless.


but this does not address the central question I asked you
 
Last edited:
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? ...

...

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.

George, where do you live? These are all laws that deal with the privilege of having a driver's license. Do you consider driving a civil right?

I know Dude and others have cluelessly overlooked this obvious fact. But I have faith in you. You know what is really bothering you. Spit it out.

Well put - I'm chuckling a tad here. OK, yes - perhaps I failed to state my case properly in the OP. I'll try again here.

Probably I should have referred to laws which are supported by well-intentioned people, rather than being enacted by well-intentioned people. One of the things I hate most in politics, in interpersonal relationships, in government, hell, in LIFE, is the hidden agenda, pretext, if you will.

There is a hidden agenda to these "acceptable" practices that, on their face, appear benign and actually beneficial to society. A guillible public accepts them as such. But those of us who deal with the criminal justice system on a daily basis know better. These laws are enacted for a purpose that transcends their apparent justification. That purpose is to allow law enforcement to do things it would not otherwise be able to do because of the 4th Amendment prohibition against illegal search and seizure.

There - I guess that's what is "really" bothering me. And thanks for asking. ;)

On your other point - no, driving is not a right - it is a privilege; or, at least, that's the way the law interprets it. But that does not mean that the Constitution has to take a back seat merely because people don't have a right to drive. I don't think you have a right to own a house. Does that mean that the police can enter your house without a warrant or probable cause and search it whenever they feel like it?
 
---

---
It is the WORST form of Statism, because NO totalitarian state would ever succeed without citizens that carry their views...

Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
Edmund Burke

I don't believe Statism exists with any degree of substance in American politics. Who advocates this...

Sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The concept of statism, which as seen as synonymous with the concept of nation, and corporatism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline.[3]
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism


...I ask because many have implied the above is a widely held view held of others here and around the nation.

WOW Dante, do you live on an island? Over the past 30-40 years America has slipped or lost the distinction of being number one in many areas; education, manufacturing etc. BUT, America IS number one by FAR in locking up human beings. Even a right wing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation has begun to take notice.

Too Many Laws Turn Innocents into Criminals

America is in the throes of “overcriminalization.”

Too Many Laws Turn Innocents into Criminals | The Heritage Foundation

THAT is not the America I grew up in during the 'liberal' era of the 50's and 60's...

US_incarceration_timeline.gif


incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif
 
I moved to the fascist State of SoCal. It is fascist because both progressives and conservatives have gone whacko here. Being a liberal I was aware of this before I moved out west. I have had an education that is priceless.

I live here also. I have never quite thought about it the way you put it, but you are spot on.

Everybody seems to think that California is a hot bed of liberalism. We do have our, shall I say, "areas," where there is a modicum of liberal thought every now and then . . . But when it comes to elected officials, public laws, administration of criminal justice, fiscal irresponsbility, etc., this state is HIGHLY conservative for the most part.
 
Sobriety check points. Driver's license check points. Laws prohibiting cell phone usage while driving. Search and seizure conditions of probation.

All of this sounds pretty good, doesn't it? ...

...

And that status is being threatened from all sides these days.

George, where do you live? These are all laws that deal with the privilege of having a driver's license. Do you consider driving a civil right?

I know Dude and others have cluelessly overlooked this obvious fact. But I have faith in you. You know what is really bothering you. Spit it out.

Well put - I'm chuckling a tad here. OK, yes - perhaps I failed to state my case properly in the OP. I'll try again here.

Probably I should have referred to laws which are supported by well-intentioned people, rather than being enacted by well-intentioned people. One of the things I hate most in politics, in interpersonal relationships, in government, hell, in LIFE, is the hidden agenda, pretext, if you will.

There is a hidden agenda to these "acceptable" practices that, on their face, appear benign and actually beneficial to society. A guillible public accepts them as such. But those of us who deal with the criminal justice system on a daily basis know better. These laws are enacted for a purpose that transcends their apparent justification. That purpose is to allow law enforcement to do things it would not otherwise be able to do because of the 4th Amendment prohibition against illegal search and seizure.

There - I guess that's what is "really" bothering me. And thanks for asking. ;)

On your other point - no, driving is not a right - it is a privilege; or, at least, that's the way the law interprets it. But that does not mean that the Constitution has to take a back seat merely because people don't have a right to drive. I don't think you have a right to own a house. Does that mean that the police can enter your house without a warrant or probable cause and search it whenever they feel like it?

I agree with you in part -- there are those with ulterior motives that are there to enforce a police state mentality.

but then there are those well intentioned (by their world view) do-gooders like the woman out here who survived cancer. She stood up as a cancer survivor and has made smoking on the beach, or smoking within a specified distance of an outdoor bus stop with children nearby (high schoolers), a crime.

She is a well meaning do-gooder. Then there are those crazy fucks from MADD and DARE.
 
---

---
It is the WORST form of Statism, because NO totalitarian state would ever succeed without citizens that carry their views...

Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
Edmund Burke

I don't believe Statism exists with any degree of substance in American politics. Who advocates this...

Sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The concept of statism, which as seen as synonymous with the concept of nation, and corporatism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline.[3]
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism


...I ask because many have implied the above is a widely held view held of others here and around the nation.

WOW Dante, do you live on an island? Over the past 30-40 years America has slipped or lost the distinction of being number one in many areas; education, manufacturing etc. BUT, America IS number one by FAR in locking up human beings. Even a right wing think tanks like the Heritage Foundation has begun to take notice.

Too Many Laws Turn Innocents into Criminals

America is in the throes of “overcriminalization.”

Too Many Laws Turn Innocents into Criminals | The Heritage Foundation

THAT is not the America I grew up in during the 'liberal' era of the 50's and 60's...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/quinn/US_incarceration_timeline.gifIMG]

[IMG]http://taylorsmurphy.com/images/incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif/IMG][/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm missing something (it's always possible) but I have no idea what those charts have to do with the definition of Statism I posted.
 
seat belt stops.
helmet laws
no smoking in all buildings other than, so far, residences
attempts to regulate certain foods other than purity
the list goes on and on.

Personally I see reasons for abiding by the intentions, but not laws or attempts at laws.

what is the logic behind linking all these examples of laws and are they all laws and not regulations?
Smoking, helmet, seat belt all laws.
Rest are being proposed.

All are attempts or demands to regulate behavior.
 

Forum List

Back
Top