The Ninth Amendment

[Sun Devil 92]

Are you saying that wasn't the case?

Here is from Hamilton in Federalist 84:

I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What would life be like without the 1st or 2nd (Adams tried to find out anyway) ?

First, I am sure you only posses a Junior High School Civics Class level understanding of President Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts. more on this later...

now...

"...they were concerned with trying to make a list. They felt that if they missed something...it would be interpreted as not existing and not being able to exist. Hence they only outlined the powers of the Federal Government and restrictions upon it."

-- Hamilton in Federalist 84: "I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous."
​

If the Constitution only listed the powers of the federal government and restrictions on it, it would contain no bill of rights. The fact that the 9th amendment in our Bill of Rights states: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." is an admission on some level that Hamilton was indeed correct (but would even be dangerous.). You appear to be all over the place. In the op and as the OP Dante included the 9th.

and...

There you go again: Are you saying that wasn't the case? -- What wasn't the case? Here is what you replied to: "Some people said no list was needed, Others said rights were self evident."

You make no sense what

...

...

...must Dante go on?

Sun Devil 92 Officially spanked by Dante

It's unfortunate that you ignore the point of the post (which is pretty clear) to focus on a canned response.

So, I'll just point out that you ceded the overall point. Thanks.

Next, we'll deal with Douglas use of the word penumbra.....

You can shove the lecture (with the rest of them) as places like lawbrain make it quite clear that Douglas' use of the term is not in the same context as the others.....something I am familiar with but you (in your haste to become a legend in your own mind) didn't bother to comprehend.

Penumbra - lawbrain.com

....but Justice Douglas took a different approach. Rather than using it to highlight the difficulty of drawing lines or determining the meaning of words or concepts, he used the term when he wanted to refer to a peripheral area or an indistinct boundary of something specific.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In his opinion, Douglas stated that the specific guarantees of the bill of rights have penumbras "formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and sub-stance," and that the right to privacy exists within this area.

Since Griswold, the penumbra doctrine has primarily been used to represent implied powers that emanate from a specific rule, thus extending the meaning of the rule into its periphery or penumbra.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And thus we see that while Douglas didn't coin the term...he certainly is seen as having used it differently....to find what wasn't there before. Which is what I stated.

Those implied powers are what Douglas pulled from his ass.......

Does Dante need to go on ? In this case....no. Nothing Dante could do would make his failure more complete.

A point of your post? "What did the 19th amendment do ? What did Griswold do ? And where are the penumbra's of rights, Douglas called out ?"

Still none too bright? Oh well, there may still be a glimmer of hope fer ya kiddo...

The use of penumbra as a metaphor. Does the previous sentence puzzle you? It should, because regarding usage, that is HOW the word penumbra was used. The context of the word penumbra is USED in the context of a legal decision. Douglas did NOT use the word penumbra in a different context. Ordinarily it would be assumed you would KNOW this. But then again, some of us have a history with your style and actions.

You re-posted something and the inference would be that because you have read it -- you magically are assumed to have comprehended it. The article you re-posted addresses different and changing uses of the metaphor (penumbra), not differing contexts of the metaphor.

What is usually argued and discussed is Douglas' use of the word 'emanations' which give 'life' and 'substance' to the privacy rights. You did not know there was a 'penumbra doctrine' and that would be understandable if you were not posing as more informed and intelligent than you are in reality

You are going to need to find a bigger rock to hide under.

That or some wet wood to help with your smoke screen.

Blah blah blah blah blah.....

Others have used it to point out the struggles of reconciling reality with written law.

Douglas reaches into his ass and find a "principle" that was hiding there...in the shadows.

You blew it when you first brought it up.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What would life be like without the 1st or 2nd (Adams tried to find out anyway) ?

I suppose under Hamilton's beliefs that if there were no bill of rights containing the 1st and 2nd amendments -- when the Alien and Sedition Acts were passed it would have ended up in the courts which is what eventually happened.

You suppose.....

Today's SCOTUS would have all guns gone.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Are you saying that wasn't the case?

Here is from Hamilton in Federalist 84:

I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What would life be like without the 1st or 2nd (Adams tried to find out anyway) ?

First, I am sure you only posses a Junior High School Civics Class level understanding of President Adams and the Alien and Sedition Acts. more on this later...

now...

"...they were concerned with trying to make a list. They felt that if they missed something...it would be interpreted as not existing and not being able to exist. Hence they only outlined the powers of the Federal Government and restrictions upon it."

-- Hamilton in Federalist 84: "I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous."
​

If the Constitution only listed the powers of the federal government and restrictions on it, it would contain no bill of rights. The fact that the 9th amendment in our Bill of Rights states: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." is an admission on some level that Hamilton was indeed correct (but would even be dangerous.). You appear to be all over the place. In the op and as the OP Dante included the 9th.

and...

There you go again: Are you saying that wasn't the case? -- What wasn't the case? Here is what you replied to: "Some people said no list was needed, Others said rights were self evident."

Not hard to see why you are away from the boards for a period of time......

Electroshock Therapy.

There is no all over the map.

You somehow seem to think I am arguing these points.

You need better reading comprehension.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Why don't you answer your own question ?

And you can also answer how those "new" rights are to come into existence.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Not hard to see why you are away from the boards for a period of time......

You do know some people who post here still have lives outside of the world wide web?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Not hard to see why you are away from the boards for a period of time......

You do know some people who post here still have lives outside of the world wide web?

Like I said...it is clear what yours is.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Why don't you answer your own question ?

And you can also answer how those "new" rights are to come into existence.

if you bother to go and strain your brain .. you will the see the context and the WHY of that question

let me know when you need help and I'll try to assist you

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

......

How malleable do you think our Constitution should be? People who prattle on about rights seem to think such abstractions just fell out of the sky. They didn't. They were born with the business end of muskets. So was our nation. Just what rights are they, to which you're you attempting to allude?

Abstractions:
"something that exists only as an idea." - do you agree with the definition Tom Sweetnam ?

Many of the ideas behind rights were born before Englishmen landed on the shores of North America, when muskets had not yet been invented. Our nation was born out of a rebellion; the Colonials demanded more direct and local representation.

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Not hard to see why you are away from the boards for a period of time......

You do know some people who post here still have lives outside of the world wide web?

Like I said...it is clear what yours is.

are you drinking and posting tonight?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Why don't you answer your own question ?

And you can also answer how those "new" rights are to come into existence.

if you bother to go and strain your brain .. you will the see the context and the WHY of that question

let me know when you need help and I'll try to assist you

I get that you think you're clever in the way you try to steer people so they eventually are confused into your point of view.

Just thought I'd help him out.

Now, answer the question.

 

[westwall]

How malleable do you think our Constitution should be? People who prattle on about rights seem to think such abstractions just fell out of the sky. They didn't. They were born with the business end of muskets. So was our nation. Just what rights are they, to which you're you attempting to allude?

Abstractions:
"something that exists only as an idea." - do you agree with the definition Tom Sweetnam ?

Many of the ideas behind rights were born before Englishmen landed on the shores of North America, when muskets had not yet been invented. Our nation was born out of a rebellion; the Colonials demanded more direct and local representation.

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

You're still being awfully vague. Go on, spit it out.

Why can't you answer the question?

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Just cut to the chase and tell us all of the rights you feel the 9th grants.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Not hard to see why you are away from the boards for a period of time......

You do know some people who post here still have lives outside of the world wide web?

Like I said...it is clear what yours is.

are you drinking and posting tonight?

More wet wood ?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

How malleable do you think our Constitution should be? People who prattle on about rights seem to think such abstractions just fell out of the sky. They didn't. They were born with the business end of muskets. So was our nation. Just what rights are they, to which you're you attempting to allude?

Abstractions:
"something that exists only as an idea." - do you agree with the definition Tom Sweetnam ?

Many of the ideas behind rights were born before Englishmen landed on the shores of North America, when muskets had not yet been invented. Our nation was born out of a rebellion; the Colonials demanded more direct and local representation.

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

You're still being awfully vague. Go on, spit it out.

Why can't you answer the question?

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Just cut to the chase and tell us all of the rights you feel the 9th grants.

Good luck with that.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

How malleable do you think our Constitution should be? People who prattle on about rights seem to think such abstractions just fell out of the sky. They didn't. They were born with the business end of muskets. So was our nation. Just what rights are they, to which you're you attempting to allude?

Abstractions:
"something that exists only as an idea." - do you agree with the definition Tom Sweetnam ?

Many of the ideas behind rights were born before Englishmen landed on the shores of North America, when muskets had not yet been invented. Our nation was born out of a rebellion; the Colonials demanded more direct and local representation.

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

You're still being awfully vague. Go on, spit it out.

Why can't you answer the question?

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

I believe (from memory) that they were concerned with trying to make a list.

They felt that if they missed something...it would be interpreted as not existing and not being able to exist.

Hence they only outlined the powers of the Federal Government and restrictions upon it.

Some people said no list was needed, Others said rights were self evident. How convenient.

What's become more clear is that your selective ADD is all about what you think you can defend and what you try ignore (that you've been clobbered).

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I get that you think you're clever in the way you try to steer people so they eventually are confused into your point of view.

Just thought I'd help him out.

Now, answer the question.

What's up with all the projection? Are you coming on to Dante?

the question was asked of another because of what he said or asked.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

How malleable do you think our Constitution should be? People who prattle on about rights seem to think such abstractions just fell out of the sky. They didn't. They were born with the business end of muskets. So was our nation. Just what rights are they, to which you're you attempting to allude?

Abstractions:
"something that exists only as an idea." - do you agree with the definition Tom Sweetnam ?

Many of the ideas behind rights were born before Englishmen landed on the shores of North America, when muskets had not yet been invented. Our nation was born out of a rebellion; the Colonials demanded more direct and local representation.

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

You're still being awfully vague. Go on, spit it out.

Why can't you answer the question?

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Just cut to the chase and tell us all of the rights you feel the 9th grants.

now watch closely ... I'll go back and straighten you out

 

[Sun Devil 92]

No mention of Hamilton's Federalist #84 or the correspondence between Jefferson and Madison concerning a Bill of Rights?

Oh, it was brought up eventually......

But some on the board think they've got a crystal ball.....

 

[Sun Devil 92]

I get that you think you're clever in the way you try to steer people so they eventually are confused into your point of view.

Just thought I'd help him out.

Now, answer the question.

What's up with all the projection? Are you coming on to Dante?

the question was asked of another because of what he said or asked.

Please try to stay focused.

The question was essentially asked of you. in response to your OP.

Now, answer it or STFU.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

You're still being awfully vague. Go on, spit it out.

Vague? after reading the OP:

The Ninth Amendment

The Ninth Amendment has generally been regarded by the courts as negating any expansion of governmental power on account of the enumeration of rights in the Constitution, but the Amendment has not been regarded as further limiting governmental power. The U.S. Supreme Court explained this, in U.S. Public Workers v. Mitchell 330 U.S. 75 (1947): "If granted power is found, necessarily the objection of invasion of those rights, reserved by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, must fail."

The Supreme Court held in Barron v. Baltimore (1833) that the Amendment was enforceable by the federal courts only against the federal government, and not against the states. Thus, the Ninth Amendment originally applied only to the federal government, which is a government of enumerated powers.
​

- Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

On the first day of his Supreme Court confirmation testimony, Robert Bork described teaching a constitutional theory seminar at Yale Law School in which he tried to justify what he called "a general right of freedom" 1 from the various provisions of the Constitution. He recalled that Alexander Bickel, with whom he taught the course, "fought me every step of the way; said it was not possible. At the end of six or seven years, I decided he was right."
​

- 26 Val L Rev 419

Civil Liberties
Basic Books / By Daniel A. Farber

'Silent' Ninth Amendment Gives Americans Rights They Don't Know They Have
The Ninth Amendment bears directly on abortion, the right to die and gay rights.

Silent Ninth Amendment Gives Americans Rights They Don t Know They Have Alternet​

Tom Sweetnam wrote:

How malleable do you think our Constitution should be? People who prattle on about rights seem to think such abstractions just fell out of the sky. They didn't. They were born with the business end of muskets. So was our nation. Just what rights are they, to which you're you attempting to allude?
​

Dante replied with:

Abstractions:
"something that exists only as an idea." - do you agree with the definition Tom Sweetnam ?

Many of the ideas behind rights were born before Englishmen landed on the shores of North America, when muskets had not yet been invented. Our nation was born out of a rebellion; the Colonials demanded more direct and local representation.

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

Tom Sweetnam replied with:

You're still being awfully vague. Go on, spit it out.​

Dante replied with:

Why can't you answer the question?

What rights did the people who framed and ratified the US Constitution think existed?​

What is it y'all don't get?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What is it y'all don't get?

Why you don't answer the question.

It was asked to you first.