The New Witch Hunt-From Salem 1692 to the Hysteria Over Gay Rights and Marriage Today

[emilynghiem]

Note: This is not intended to disparage Christian’s or all religious people who hold different values that myself. It is, however, intended to shine a light on those who would use their religion as a weapon to marginalize and disenfranchise others.

Ask anyone what they think happened in Salem Mass. In 1692 and they are likely to say something to the effect that some unsophisticated settlers, given to religious fervor and superstition during a harsh winter and desolate conditions, became obsessed with evil and targeted those who they saw as a threat. Ask those same people if such a thing could happen today, and they are likely to say “of course not!”

However, I submit to you that it is in fact happening again, only this time gays-not witches are the target. Consider:

In Salem witches were viewed as being possessed by evil that must be exorcised. The religious right of today see gays has being sick and in need of a cure.

The members of the Bay Colony saw witches as a threat to their Christian beliefs and even a threat to the continued existence of Christianity. Today, the religious right speaks passionately about their religious freedom being violated by gay rights and the criminalization of Christianity.

The settlers were driven by ignorance and fear of the unknown, and the need for a scapegoat to blame their problems on witches-which included a small pox outbreak and the perception of religious persecution. Today, we can see these same forces at work among the virulently religious right who have blamed gays for everything from natural disasters, and disease to the risen of liberal secularism.

Yes, the colonists were beset by real and present dangers- Native American’s , pirates, economic difficulties and political tensions with England which added to the stress which in turn contributed to the hysteria and the need to blame someone. We see the same dynamic playing out today with the fear of Islam and ISIS, uncertainty about the economy and the fact that there are people in power who do not reflect their values.

The settlers were so threatened by those who they deemed witches that they imprisoned and murdered them. Today, most on the right do not advocate imprisonment, burning at the stake, or drowning. However, there are those who do lament the decriminalization of homosexuality and some who have in fact advocated the imprisonment and execution of gays.

As in 1692, there is an identifiable triggering condition now. Then, it was a difficult winter living in isolation. Now, it is the rapid rise of the acceptance of gay people, and the speed at which they have gained legal rights culminating in marriage equality

If anyone wishes to question the voracity of this analogy, I invite you to first review a brief history of the Salem witch trials:

The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History


The Salem Witch Trials was a classic example of scapegoating. Fear combined with a “trigger,” a traumatic or stressful event, is what often leads to scapegoating. Fear of the Devil, and witches who did his bidding, was very real in Salem at the time.

During this time period, people feared that the Devil was constantly trying to find ways to infiltrate and destroy Christians and their communities.

The puritans, who had left England due to religious persecution, feared they were under attack again and were losing control of their colony. A feeling of uneasiness and discontent surrounded them.

Other factors included a recent small pox epidemic in the colony, growing rivalries between families within the colony, a constant threat of attack from nearby Native-American tribes, and a recent influx of refugees trying to escape King William’s war with France in Canada and upstate New York.

“It was the darkest and most desponding period in the civil history of New England. The people, whose ruling passion then was, as it has ever since been, a love for constitutional rights, had, a few years before, been thrown into dismay by the loss of their charter, and, from that time, kept in a feverish state of anxiety respecting their political destinies. In addition to all this, the whole sea-coast was exposed to danger: ruthless pirates were continually prowling the shores. Commerce was nearly extinguished, and great losses had been experienced by men in business. A recent expedition against Canada had exposed the colonies to the vengeance of France.”

Now, let’s have a closer look at what is happening today. Enter Mike Huckabee:

Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism' –

Huckabee, however, seems to have changed his tune on culture-war boycotts. Time reports that Huckabee has “called on Christians to boycott all snacks made by” Frito Lay after it released limited edition Rainbow Doritos to benefit the anti-bullying It Gets Better Project. –

The GOP presidential candidate’s anti-Frito Lay campaign reportedly came at the behest of David Lane, a Republican organizer who has linked gays to everything from car bombs to America’s looming destruction and who bizarrely suggests that the creation of Rainbow Doritos could destroy America and curtail religious freedom. - See more at: Mike Huckabee: Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism'

Clearly, he is demonizing and scapegoating gays. Here is more from a supporter of another presidential contender who apparently has no problem with her extreme and bizarre views

Ted Cruz Welcomes The Endorsement Of Anti-Gay Hate Group Official And Radio Host Sandy Rios –

In her capacity as a radio host for the AFA, Rios has repeatedly attacked gays, Muslims and Jews while promoting conspiracy theories and issuing repeated warnings that God's judgment will soon fall upon this nation: - Here are just some of her rantings

• Sandy Rios: Gay Rainbows Increase Terrorism Threat for America.

• Sandy Rios Predicts Major Worldwide Disaster In Divine Punishment For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Religious Right Activists: God Will Punish America For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Anti-Gay Pundit: Homosexuality 'A Factor' In Amtrak Crash.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: 'You Must Prepare For Martyrdom' If Gay Marriage Becomes Legal.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: Children are 'Sexually Abused' by 'Homosexual Advocacy' in Schools. - See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-welcomes-endorsement-anti-gay-hate-group-official-and-radio-host-sandy-rios#sthash.JcToAH70.dpuf

Now let’s talk about the World Congress of Families which met recently in Salt Lake City….

Peter Sprigg delivered the morning keynote; Rev. Bill Owens of the National Organization for Marriage-affiliated Coalition of African American Pastors delivered the afternoon keynote.

Sprigg, who is also scheduled to speak at WCF on Wednesday, set the tone for the day by challenging the “gay identity paradigm” and urging social conservatives to avoid as much as possible using the words “gay” and “lesbian” because he said they refer to someone’s innate identity. Sprigg urged activists to separate sexual attraction, sexual behavior, and a person’s self-identification and instead to focus on gay relationships, which he called “objectively harmful to the people who engage in it and to society at large.”

Also arguing for an uncompromising stance and “zero affirmation of the gay rights paradigm” was Americans For Truth About Homosexuality’s Peter LaBarbera, who urged anti-gay activists to stop playing defense and go on the offense, reclaiming the moral high ground by always opposing homosexual behavior. One way to go on offense, he said, would be by proposing state bans on hormone therapy and surgery for transgender youth. Other notable anti-gay activists who addressed the gathering included Liberty Counsel’s Mat Staver (via video) and Brian Camenker of MassResistance.

More Salem style vilification and scapegoating. And the myths born of ignorance and fear, and the lies that speak to the deep seated animosity towards gays continues. Numbers 3, 4, 6, and 9 are especially egregious and represent the type of rhetoric that can lead to physical violence:

Myths and stereotypes that go unchallenged become stronger weapons for those who seek to oppress others in society. As the U.S.A. continues to evolve, and as gay men become increasingly more open about their true identities, we must take advantage of all opportunities to educate others about what is correct, and what isn't, in relation to male homosexuality.

Here are 10 of the most problematic myths and stereotypes which play a role in the mischaracterization and dehumanization of gay men in the U.S.

http://mic.com/articles/50621/10-biggest-lies-you-were-told-about-gay-men

And then there is the endless drum beat of fear mongering about how gay rights is antithetical to Christianity and that it will destroy the freedom of religion, and religion itself:

Ted Cruz and the politics of faith and fear: How the GOP mastered the art of exploiting scared Christians http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/ted-cruz-and-the-politics-of-faith-and-fear-how-the-gop-mastered-the-art-of-exploiting-scared-christians/

Cruz quoted from the oral argument in Obergefell v. Hodges to warn people of faith what will follow an adverse ruling on marriage:

“Justice [Samuel] Alito asked U.S. Solicitor-General Donald Verrilli: ‘If the Obama administration prevails and you convince this court to strike down the marriage laws of every state, would the next step be that the IRS would start going after Christian schools, Christian charities, and next after that Christian churches? Any institutions that follow a biblical teaching of marriage? Or for that matter, Jewish schools? Mormon schools? Any institution that follows religious teaching?’

The American Family Association is one of the most divisive and virulent organizations that is exploiting Christianity in there anti-gay crusade:

The American Family Association Publishes Interactive 'Bigotry Map' Featuring LGBT Organizations

A prominent fundamentalist organization is making headlines after creating an "anti-Christian bigotry map" which includes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) advocacy groups.

The American Family Association's interactive map, which can be found here, breaks down groups into four categories: anti-Christian, humanist, atheist and those with a "homosexual agenda." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/american-family-association-bigotry-map-_n_6754528.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

This is an extremely disconcerting development and represents a new low for those working against equality. As a last resort, the anti-equality forces have claimed victimhood and are, in fact blaming the victims. It is born of fear, prejudice and an increasing sense of desperation, and is attempting to hijack Christianity to stem the tide of progress in the area of human rights and evolving standards of decency. They purport to speak for the entire Christian faith, but in reality, represent a small, paranoid and reactionary fringe.

It is also disturbing to realize the depth of the divisiveness that has developed between these progressive rights organizations and a certain segment of the Christian community, a divisiveness that really does not need to be. The claims that the advance of gay rights and secularism an affront to Christians and impinges on religious freedom is without merit. While there are those that actually believe that is the case, others are knowingly promoting a false idea of religious liberty for their own purposes.

And let’s not forget the American evangelical, including some politicians who have traveled to Africa and Russia to promote those countries antigay agendas, which have included proposals to jail and even execute gays. Even right here in the U. S., in California to be exact, a ballot initiative to allow for the summary execution of gays was proposed.

It all comes down to this…..there are some of us who are not better, not smarter, and no more rational than the inhabitants of the Bay Colony, and if they were to achieve the control of government , Salem could indeed happen again.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

God will put an end to same sex marriage. His word assures--any who practice it will not enter his kingdom--they should put their choice on a scale of reality

on one side--70-90 years of temporary pleasure----or trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of pleasure---they made the wrong choice as most have.-1Cor 6:9-11

unfortunately, those who do not know God will agree with your side.

Those who have the arrogance to believe that they know god, and that she is a bigot, may well be in for a rude awakening on judgement day. God made gay people just like she made you.

Religion is a choice as is hatred and intolerance. Being gay is not.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Note: This is not intended to disparage Christian’s or all religious people who hold different values that myself. It is, however, intended to shine a light on those who would use their religion as a weapon to marginalize and disenfranchise others.

Ask anyone what they think happened in Salem Mass. In 1692 and they are likely to say something to the effect that some unsophisticated settlers, given to religious fervor and superstition during a harsh winter and desolate conditions, became obsessed with evil and targeted those who they saw as a threat. Ask those same people if such a thing could happen today, and they are likely to say “of course not!”

However, I submit to you that it is in fact happening again, only this time gays-not witches are the target. Consider:

In Salem witches were viewed as being possessed by evil that must be exorcised. The religious right of today see gays has being sick and in need of a cure.

The members of the Bay Colony saw witches as a threat to their Christian beliefs and even a threat to the continued existence of Christianity. Today, the religious right speaks passionately about their religious freedom being violated by gay rights and the criminalization of Christianity.

The settlers were driven by ignorance and fear of the unknown, and the need for a scapegoat to blame their problems on witches-which included a small pox outbreak and the perception of religious persecution. Today, we can see these same forces at work among the virulently religious right who have blamed gays for everything from natural disasters, and disease to the risen of liberal secularism.

Yes, the colonists were beset by real and present dangers- Native American’s , pirates, economic difficulties and political tensions with England which added to the stress which in turn contributed to the hysteria and the need to blame someone. We see the same dynamic playing out today with the fear of Islam and ISIS, uncertainty about the economy and the fact that there are people in power who do not reflect their values.

The settlers were so threatened by those who they deemed witches that they imprisoned and murdered them. Today, most on the right do not advocate imprisonment, burning at the stake, or drowning. However, there are those who do lament the decriminalization of homosexuality and some who have in fact advocated the imprisonment and execution of gays.

As in 1692, there is an identifiable triggering condition now. Then, it was a difficult winter living in isolation. Now, it is the rapid rise of the acceptance of gay people, and the speed at which they have gained legal rights culminating in marriage equality

If anyone wishes to question the voracity of this analogy, I invite you to first review a brief history of the Salem witch trials:

The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History


The Salem Witch Trials was a classic example of scapegoating. Fear combined with a “trigger,” a traumatic or stressful event, is what often leads to scapegoating. Fear of the Devil, and witches who did his bidding, was very real in Salem at the time.

During this time period, people feared that the Devil was constantly trying to find ways to infiltrate and destroy Christians and their communities.

The puritans, who had left England due to religious persecution, feared they were under attack again and were losing control of their colony. A feeling of uneasiness and discontent surrounded them.

Other factors included a recent small pox epidemic in the colony, growing rivalries between families within the colony, a constant threat of attack from nearby Native-American tribes, and a recent influx of refugees trying to escape King William’s war with France in Canada and upstate New York.

“It was the darkest and most desponding period in the civil history of New England. The people, whose ruling passion then was, as it has ever since been, a love for constitutional rights, had, a few years before, been thrown into dismay by the loss of their charter, and, from that time, kept in a feverish state of anxiety respecting their political destinies. In addition to all this, the whole sea-coast was exposed to danger: ruthless pirates were continually prowling the shores. Commerce was nearly extinguished, and great losses had been experienced by men in business. A recent expedition against Canada had exposed the colonies to the vengeance of France.”

Now, let’s have a closer look at what is happening today. Enter Mike Huckabee:

Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism' –

Huckabee, however, seems to have changed his tune on culture-war boycotts. Time reports that Huckabee has “called on Christians to boycott all snacks made by” Frito Lay after it released limited edition Rainbow Doritos to benefit the anti-bullying It Gets Better Project. –

The GOP presidential candidate’s anti-Frito Lay campaign reportedly came at the behest of David Lane, a Republican organizer who has linked gays to everything from car bombs to America’s looming destruction and who bizarrely suggests that the creation of Rainbow Doritos could destroy America and curtail religious freedom. - See more at: Mike Huckabee: Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism'

Clearly, he is demonizing and scapegoating gays. Here is more from a supporter of another presidential contender who apparently has no problem with her extreme and bizarre views

Ted Cruz Welcomes The Endorsement Of Anti-Gay Hate Group Official And Radio Host Sandy Rios –

In her capacity as a radio host for the AFA, Rios has repeatedly attacked gays, Muslims and Jews while promoting conspiracy theories and issuing repeated warnings that God's judgment will soon fall upon this nation: - Here are just some of her rantings

• Sandy Rios: Gay Rainbows Increase Terrorism Threat for America.

• Sandy Rios Predicts Major Worldwide Disaster In Divine Punishment For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Religious Right Activists: God Will Punish America For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Anti-Gay Pundit: Homosexuality 'A Factor' In Amtrak Crash.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: 'You Must Prepare For Martyrdom' If Gay Marriage Becomes Legal.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: Children are 'Sexually Abused' by 'Homosexual Advocacy' in Schools. - See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-welcomes-endorsement-anti-gay-hate-group-official-and-radio-host-sandy-rios#sthash.JcToAH70.dpuf

Now let’s talk about the World Congress of Families which met recently in Salt Lake City….

Peter Sprigg delivered the morning keynote; Rev. Bill Owens of the National Organization for Marriage-affiliated Coalition of African American Pastors delivered the afternoon keynote.

Sprigg, who is also scheduled to speak at WCF on Wednesday, set the tone for the day by challenging the “gay identity paradigm” and urging social conservatives to avoid as much as possible using the words “gay” and “lesbian” because he said they refer to someone’s innate identity. Sprigg urged activists to separate sexual attraction, sexual behavior, and a person’s self-identification and instead to focus on gay relationships, which he called “objectively harmful to the people who engage in it and to society at large.”

Also arguing for an uncompromising stance and “zero affirmation of the gay rights paradigm” was Americans For Truth About Homosexuality’s Peter LaBarbera, who urged anti-gay activists to stop playing defense and go on the offense, reclaiming the moral high ground by always opposing homosexual behavior. One way to go on offense, he said, would be by proposing state bans on hormone therapy and surgery for transgender youth. Other notable anti-gay activists who addressed the gathering included Liberty Counsel’s Mat Staver (via video) and Brian Camenker of MassResistance.

More Salem style vilification and scapegoating. And the myths born of ignorance and fear, and the lies that speak to the deep seated animosity towards gays continues. Numbers 3, 4, 6, and 9 are especially egregious and represent the type of rhetoric that can lead to physical violence:

Myths and stereotypes that go unchallenged become stronger weapons for those who seek to oppress others in society. As the U.S.A. continues to evolve, and as gay men become increasingly more open about their true identities, we must take advantage of all opportunities to educate others about what is correct, and what isn't, in relation to male homosexuality.

Here are 10 of the most problematic myths and stereotypes which play a role in the mischaracterization and dehumanization of gay men in the U.S.

http://mic.com/articles/50621/10-biggest-lies-you-were-told-about-gay-men

And then there is the endless drum beat of fear mongering about how gay rights is antithetical to Christianity and that it will destroy the freedom of religion, and religion itself:

Ted Cruz and the politics of faith and fear: How the GOP mastered the art of exploiting scared Christians http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/ted-cruz-and-the-politics-of-faith-and-fear-how-the-gop-mastered-the-art-of-exploiting-scared-christians/

Cruz quoted from the oral argument in Obergefell v. Hodges to warn people of faith what will follow an adverse ruling on marriage:

“Justice [Samuel] Alito asked U.S. Solicitor-General Donald Verrilli: ‘If the Obama administration prevails and you convince this court to strike down the marriage laws of every state, would the next step be that the IRS would start going after Christian schools, Christian charities, and next after that Christian churches? Any institutions that follow a biblical teaching of marriage? Or for that matter, Jewish schools? Mormon schools? Any institution that follows religious teaching?’

The American Family Association is one of the most divisive and virulent organizations that is exploiting Christianity in there anti-gay crusade:

The American Family Association Publishes Interactive 'Bigotry Map' Featuring LGBT Organizations

A prominent fundamentalist organization is making headlines after creating an "anti-Christian bigotry map" which includes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) advocacy groups.

The American Family Association's interactive map, which can be found here, breaks down groups into four categories: anti-Christian, humanist, atheist and those with a "homosexual agenda." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/american-family-association-bigotry-map-_n_6754528.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

This is an extremely disconcerting development and represents a new low for those working against equality. As a last resort, the anti-equality forces have claimed victimhood and are, in fact blaming the victims. It is born of fear, prejudice and an increasing sense of desperation, and is attempting to hijack Christianity to stem the tide of progress in the area of human rights and evolving standards of decency. They purport to speak for the entire Christian faith, but in reality, represent a small, paranoid and reactionary fringe.

It is also disturbing to realize the depth of the divisiveness that has developed between these progressive rights organizations and a certain segment of the Christian community, a divisiveness that really does not need to be. The claims that the advance of gay rights and secularism an affront to Christians and impinges on religious freedom is without merit. While there are those that actually believe that is the case, others are knowingly promoting a false idea of religious liberty for their own purposes.

And let’s not forget the American evangelical, including some politicians who have traveled to Africa and Russia to promote those countries antigay agendas, which have included proposals to jail and even execute gays. Even right here in the U. S., in California to be exact, a ballot initiative to allow for the summary execution of gays was proposed.

It all comes down to this…..there are some of us who are not better, not smarter, and no more rational than the inhabitants of the Bay Colony, and if they were to achieve the control of government , Salem could indeed happen again.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

You are blathering as usual and saying nothing meaningful in the process.

 

[emilynghiem]

God will put an end to same sex marriage. His word assures--any who practice it will not enter his kingdom--they should put their choice on a scale of reality

on one side--70-90 years of temporary pleasure----or trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of pleasure---they made the wrong choice as most have.-1Cor 6:9-11

unfortunately, those who do not know God will agree with your side.

Those who have the arrogance to believe that they know god, and that she is a bigot, may well be in for a rude awakening on judgement day. God made gay people just like she made you.

Religion is a choice as is hatred and intolerance. Being gay is not.

Yes and no, again, times two ProgressivePatriot

1. Yes, one of my friends DID explain to me the discovery that their orientation was a choice. for THAT person.

And many others have found that once they chose to go through the whole process of healing, then although it wasn't a choice how things changed, their "choice to receive that change" HAD to be consciously agreed to by them.

This is true of both friends who came out Transsexual and chose to forgive and receiving healing to accept how they really are and "change" to that.

And friends whose spiritual process led them to change and "no longer" seek certain sexual relations, whether these were gay bi or straight.
I have male friends who no longer wanted open or uncommitted sexual relations, but changed to wanting either monogamous or marital only; so again, the choice to receive and undergo change was theirs, but where they ended up is not something they chose, but it came as a result.

2. so NO, it isn't always a choice where people end up "religiously or spiritually." I don't think my mother could "choose not to be Buddhist." That is her native upbringing, how she thinks and feels.

Like trying to change your native language, you'll always think and talk in those terms or have an "accent" even if you learn a different system.

SOME people CAN and HAVE totally flipped religious denominations, like from Christian to Atheist, Catholic to Muslim, and one of my friends went from Nontheist to believing the Earth is FLAT because the Mason's have corrupted all the knowledge and institutions.

I don't think all these people can HELP "what they believe".

We can choose to ASK for help to open up to change, but don't always control where that change and process leads.

ProgressivePatriot when a friend online came out as Transgender, and neither of us saw that coming, it just happened as part of the forgiving and letting go of the fear of what religions were teaching. That really showed me nobody controls the process. We just accept it and work with what we are given. But spiritually we are born or may change to follow certain paths in life.

The choice is in acceptance, and sometimes the script is written where we are meant to change, and sometimes it is set up where we can't or won't.

So Yes and No on both sides to both issues.
There are cases of and exceptions to both.

 

[emilynghiem]

Note: This is not intended to disparage Christian’s or all religious people who hold different values that myself. It is, however, intended to shine a light on those who would use their religion as a weapon to marginalize and disenfranchise others.

Ask anyone what they think happened in Salem Mass. In 1692 and they are likely to say something to the effect that some unsophisticated settlers, given to religious fervor and superstition during a harsh winter and desolate conditions, became obsessed with evil and targeted those who they saw as a threat. Ask those same people if such a thing could happen today, and they are likely to say “of course not!”

However, I submit to you that it is in fact happening again, only this time gays-not witches are the target. Consider:

In Salem witches were viewed as being possessed by evil that must be exorcised. The religious right of today see gays has being sick and in need of a cure.

The members of the Bay Colony saw witches as a threat to their Christian beliefs and even a threat to the continued existence of Christianity. Today, the religious right speaks passionately about their religious freedom being violated by gay rights and the criminalization of Christianity.

The settlers were driven by ignorance and fear of the unknown, and the need for a scapegoat to blame their problems on witches-which included a small pox outbreak and the perception of religious persecution. Today, we can see these same forces at work among the virulently religious right who have blamed gays for everything from natural disasters, and disease to the risen of liberal secularism.

Yes, the colonists were beset by real and present dangers- Native American’s , pirates, economic difficulties and political tensions with England which added to the stress which in turn contributed to the hysteria and the need to blame someone. We see the same dynamic playing out today with the fear of Islam and ISIS, uncertainty about the economy and the fact that there are people in power who do not reflect their values.

The settlers were so threatened by those who they deemed witches that they imprisoned and murdered them. Today, most on the right do not advocate imprisonment, burning at the stake, or drowning. However, there are those who do lament the decriminalization of homosexuality and some who have in fact advocated the imprisonment and execution of gays.

As in 1692, there is an identifiable triggering condition now. Then, it was a difficult winter living in isolation. Now, it is the rapid rise of the acceptance of gay people, and the speed at which they have gained legal rights culminating in marriage equality

If anyone wishes to question the voracity of this analogy, I invite you to first review a brief history of the Salem witch trials:

The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History


The Salem Witch Trials was a classic example of scapegoating. Fear combined with a “trigger,” a traumatic or stressful event, is what often leads to scapegoating. Fear of the Devil, and witches who did his bidding, was very real in Salem at the time.

During this time period, people feared that the Devil was constantly trying to find ways to infiltrate and destroy Christians and their communities.

The puritans, who had left England due to religious persecution, feared they were under attack again and were losing control of their colony. A feeling of uneasiness and discontent surrounded them.

Other factors included a recent small pox epidemic in the colony, growing rivalries between families within the colony, a constant threat of attack from nearby Native-American tribes, and a recent influx of refugees trying to escape King William’s war with France in Canada and upstate New York.

“It was the darkest and most desponding period in the civil history of New England. The people, whose ruling passion then was, as it has ever since been, a love for constitutional rights, had, a few years before, been thrown into dismay by the loss of their charter, and, from that time, kept in a feverish state of anxiety respecting their political destinies. In addition to all this, the whole sea-coast was exposed to danger: ruthless pirates were continually prowling the shores. Commerce was nearly extinguished, and great losses had been experienced by men in business. A recent expedition against Canada had exposed the colonies to the vengeance of France.”

Now, let’s have a closer look at what is happening today. Enter Mike Huckabee:

Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism' –

Huckabee, however, seems to have changed his tune on culture-war boycotts. Time reports that Huckabee has “called on Christians to boycott all snacks made by” Frito Lay after it released limited edition Rainbow Doritos to benefit the anti-bullying It Gets Better Project. –

The GOP presidential candidate’s anti-Frito Lay campaign reportedly came at the behest of David Lane, a Republican organizer who has linked gays to everything from car bombs to America’s looming destruction and who bizarrely suggests that the creation of Rainbow Doritos could destroy America and curtail religious freedom. - See more at: Mike Huckabee: Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism'

Clearly, he is demonizing and scapegoating gays. Here is more from a supporter of another presidential contender who apparently has no problem with her extreme and bizarre views

Ted Cruz Welcomes The Endorsement Of Anti-Gay Hate Group Official And Radio Host Sandy Rios –

In her capacity as a radio host for the AFA, Rios has repeatedly attacked gays, Muslims and Jews while promoting conspiracy theories and issuing repeated warnings that God's judgment will soon fall upon this nation: - Here are just some of her rantings

• Sandy Rios: Gay Rainbows Increase Terrorism Threat for America.

• Sandy Rios Predicts Major Worldwide Disaster In Divine Punishment For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Religious Right Activists: God Will Punish America For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Anti-Gay Pundit: Homosexuality 'A Factor' In Amtrak Crash.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: 'You Must Prepare For Martyrdom' If Gay Marriage Becomes Legal.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: Children are 'Sexually Abused' by 'Homosexual Advocacy' in Schools. - See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-welcomes-endorsement-anti-gay-hate-group-official-and-radio-host-sandy-rios#sthash.JcToAH70.dpuf

Now let’s talk about the World Congress of Families which met recently in Salt Lake City….

Peter Sprigg delivered the morning keynote; Rev. Bill Owens of the National Organization for Marriage-affiliated Coalition of African American Pastors delivered the afternoon keynote.

Sprigg, who is also scheduled to speak at WCF on Wednesday, set the tone for the day by challenging the “gay identity paradigm” and urging social conservatives to avoid as much as possible using the words “gay” and “lesbian” because he said they refer to someone’s innate identity. Sprigg urged activists to separate sexual attraction, sexual behavior, and a person’s self-identification and instead to focus on gay relationships, which he called “objectively harmful to the people who engage in it and to society at large.”

Also arguing for an uncompromising stance and “zero affirmation of the gay rights paradigm” was Americans For Truth About Homosexuality’s Peter LaBarbera, who urged anti-gay activists to stop playing defense and go on the offense, reclaiming the moral high ground by always opposing homosexual behavior. One way to go on offense, he said, would be by proposing state bans on hormone therapy and surgery for transgender youth. Other notable anti-gay activists who addressed the gathering included Liberty Counsel’s Mat Staver (via video) and Brian Camenker of MassResistance.

More Salem style vilification and scapegoating. And the myths born of ignorance and fear, and the lies that speak to the deep seated animosity towards gays continues. Numbers 3, 4, 6, and 9 are especially egregious and represent the type of rhetoric that can lead to physical violence:

Myths and stereotypes that go unchallenged become stronger weapons for those who seek to oppress others in society. As the U.S.A. continues to evolve, and as gay men become increasingly more open about their true identities, we must take advantage of all opportunities to educate others about what is correct, and what isn't, in relation to male homosexuality.

Here are 10 of the most problematic myths and stereotypes which play a role in the mischaracterization and dehumanization of gay men in the U.S.

http://mic.com/articles/50621/10-biggest-lies-you-were-told-about-gay-men

And then there is the endless drum beat of fear mongering about how gay rights is antithetical to Christianity and that it will destroy the freedom of religion, and religion itself:

Ted Cruz and the politics of faith and fear: How the GOP mastered the art of exploiting scared Christians http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/ted-cruz-and-the-politics-of-faith-and-fear-how-the-gop-mastered-the-art-of-exploiting-scared-christians/

Cruz quoted from the oral argument in Obergefell v. Hodges to warn people of faith what will follow an adverse ruling on marriage:

“Justice [Samuel] Alito asked U.S. Solicitor-General Donald Verrilli: ‘If the Obama administration prevails and you convince this court to strike down the marriage laws of every state, would the next step be that the IRS would start going after Christian schools, Christian charities, and next after that Christian churches? Any institutions that follow a biblical teaching of marriage? Or for that matter, Jewish schools? Mormon schools? Any institution that follows religious teaching?’

The American Family Association is one of the most divisive and virulent organizations that is exploiting Christianity in there anti-gay crusade:

The American Family Association Publishes Interactive 'Bigotry Map' Featuring LGBT Organizations

A prominent fundamentalist organization is making headlines after creating an "anti-Christian bigotry map" which includes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) advocacy groups.

The American Family Association's interactive map, which can be found here, breaks down groups into four categories: anti-Christian, humanist, atheist and those with a "homosexual agenda." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/american-family-association-bigotry-map-_n_6754528.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

This is an extremely disconcerting development and represents a new low for those working against equality. As a last resort, the anti-equality forces have claimed victimhood and are, in fact blaming the victims. It is born of fear, prejudice and an increasing sense of desperation, and is attempting to hijack Christianity to stem the tide of progress in the area of human rights and evolving standards of decency. They purport to speak for the entire Christian faith, but in reality, represent a small, paranoid and reactionary fringe.

It is also disturbing to realize the depth of the divisiveness that has developed between these progressive rights organizations and a certain segment of the Christian community, a divisiveness that really does not need to be. The claims that the advance of gay rights and secularism an affront to Christians and impinges on religious freedom is without merit. While there are those that actually believe that is the case, others are knowingly promoting a false idea of religious liberty for their own purposes.

And let’s not forget the American evangelical, including some politicians who have traveled to Africa and Russia to promote those countries antigay agendas, which have included proposals to jail and even execute gays. Even right here in the U. S., in California to be exact, a ballot initiative to allow for the summary execution of gays was proposed.

It all comes down to this…..there are some of us who are not better, not smarter, and no more rational than the inhabitants of the Bay Colony, and if they were to achieve the control of government , Salem could indeed happen again.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

You are blathering as usual and saying nothing meaningful in the process.

Wow
I just gave example of
1. how some people can change orientation
2. how some people can't
3. how some people can change religions
4. how some people can't

And you are saying that is not meaningful.

I just explained how what you are saying
is right in some cases, and has exceptions
in others. How is that not clarifying what you said?

If my statements mean nothing,
what does that say about YOURS
that only gave 1/2 of the story?

I cover twice as much as you did.
ProgressivePatriot

Do you recognize this at all?
Are you even aware?

 

[emilynghiem]

The real witch hunt nowadays is against so-called "terrorists"​

Thanks Goddess_Ashtara

The environmental movement went through their own phase of "ecoterrorist witch hunts" and setting up moles within organizations to get people arrested.

Today it's political targeting of whoever opposes the flavor of the day.

The UH student president just got denounced for making a statement about ALM vs. BLM. instead of asking both groups to apologize to each other, the University targeted her and required her to issue an apology.

This onesidedness has to stop.

When we respect the sensitivity behind all people's views EQUALLY as the one we're trying to defend, maybe we'll achieve our goals on all sides.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Note: This is not intended to disparage Christian’s or all religious people who hold different values that myself. It is, however, intended to shine a light on those who would use their religion as a weapon to marginalize and disenfranchise others.

Ask anyone what they think happened in Salem Mass. In 1692 and they are likely to say something to the effect that some unsophisticated settlers, given to religious fervor and superstition during a harsh winter and desolate conditions, became obsessed with evil and targeted those who they saw as a threat. Ask those same people if such a thing could happen today, and they are likely to say “of course not!”

However, I submit to you that it is in fact happening again, only this time gays-not witches are the target. Consider:

In Salem witches were viewed as being possessed by evil that must be exorcised. The religious right of today see gays has being sick and in need of a cure.

The members of the Bay Colony saw witches as a threat to their Christian beliefs and even a threat to the continued existence of Christianity. Today, the religious right speaks passionately about their religious freedom being violated by gay rights and the criminalization of Christianity.

The settlers were driven by ignorance and fear of the unknown, and the need for a scapegoat to blame their problems on witches-which included a small pox outbreak and the perception of religious persecution. Today, we can see these same forces at work among the virulently religious right who have blamed gays for everything from natural disasters, and disease to the risen of liberal secularism.

Yes, the colonists were beset by real and present dangers- Native American’s , pirates, economic difficulties and political tensions with England which added to the stress which in turn contributed to the hysteria and the need to blame someone. We see the same dynamic playing out today with the fear of Islam and ISIS, uncertainty about the economy and the fact that there are people in power who do not reflect their values.

The settlers were so threatened by those who they deemed witches that they imprisoned and murdered them. Today, most on the right do not advocate imprisonment, burning at the stake, or drowning. However, there are those who do lament the decriminalization of homosexuality and some who have in fact advocated the imprisonment and execution of gays.

As in 1692, there is an identifiable triggering condition now. Then, it was a difficult winter living in isolation. Now, it is the rapid rise of the acceptance of gay people, and the speed at which they have gained legal rights culminating in marriage equality

If anyone wishes to question the voracity of this analogy, I invite you to first review a brief history of the Salem witch trials:

The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History


The Salem Witch Trials was a classic example of scapegoating. Fear combined with a “trigger,” a traumatic or stressful event, is what often leads to scapegoating. Fear of the Devil, and witches who did his bidding, was very real in Salem at the time.

During this time period, people feared that the Devil was constantly trying to find ways to infiltrate and destroy Christians and their communities.

The puritans, who had left England due to religious persecution, feared they were under attack again and were losing control of their colony. A feeling of uneasiness and discontent surrounded them.

Other factors included a recent small pox epidemic in the colony, growing rivalries between families within the colony, a constant threat of attack from nearby Native-American tribes, and a recent influx of refugees trying to escape King William’s war with France in Canada and upstate New York.

“It was the darkest and most desponding period in the civil history of New England. The people, whose ruling passion then was, as it has ever since been, a love for constitutional rights, had, a few years before, been thrown into dismay by the loss of their charter, and, from that time, kept in a feverish state of anxiety respecting their political destinies. In addition to all this, the whole sea-coast was exposed to danger: ruthless pirates were continually prowling the shores. Commerce was nearly extinguished, and great losses had been experienced by men in business. A recent expedition against Canada had exposed the colonies to the vengeance of France.”

Now, let’s have a closer look at what is happening today. Enter Mike Huckabee:

Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism' –

Huckabee, however, seems to have changed his tune on culture-war boycotts. Time reports that Huckabee has “called on Christians to boycott all snacks made by” Frito Lay after it released limited edition Rainbow Doritos to benefit the anti-bullying It Gets Better Project. –

The GOP presidential candidate’s anti-Frito Lay campaign reportedly came at the behest of David Lane, a Republican organizer who has linked gays to everything from car bombs to America’s looming destruction and who bizarrely suggests that the creation of Rainbow Doritos could destroy America and curtail religious freedom. - See more at: Mike Huckabee: Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism'

Clearly, he is demonizing and scapegoating gays. Here is more from a supporter of another presidential contender who apparently has no problem with her extreme and bizarre views

Ted Cruz Welcomes The Endorsement Of Anti-Gay Hate Group Official And Radio Host Sandy Rios –

In her capacity as a radio host for the AFA, Rios has repeatedly attacked gays, Muslims and Jews while promoting conspiracy theories and issuing repeated warnings that God's judgment will soon fall upon this nation: - Here are just some of her rantings

• Sandy Rios: Gay Rainbows Increase Terrorism Threat for America.

• Sandy Rios Predicts Major Worldwide Disaster In Divine Punishment For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Religious Right Activists: God Will Punish America For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Anti-Gay Pundit: Homosexuality 'A Factor' In Amtrak Crash.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: 'You Must Prepare For Martyrdom' If Gay Marriage Becomes Legal.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: Children are 'Sexually Abused' by 'Homosexual Advocacy' in Schools. - See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-welcomes-endorsement-anti-gay-hate-group-official-and-radio-host-sandy-rios#sthash.JcToAH70.dpuf

Now let’s talk about the World Congress of Families which met recently in Salt Lake City….

Peter Sprigg delivered the morning keynote; Rev. Bill Owens of the National Organization for Marriage-affiliated Coalition of African American Pastors delivered the afternoon keynote.

Sprigg, who is also scheduled to speak at WCF on Wednesday, set the tone for the day by challenging the “gay identity paradigm” and urging social conservatives to avoid as much as possible using the words “gay” and “lesbian” because he said they refer to someone’s innate identity. Sprigg urged activists to separate sexual attraction, sexual behavior, and a person’s self-identification and instead to focus on gay relationships, which he called “objectively harmful to the people who engage in it and to society at large.”

Also arguing for an uncompromising stance and “zero affirmation of the gay rights paradigm” was Americans For Truth About Homosexuality’s Peter LaBarbera, who urged anti-gay activists to stop playing defense and go on the offense, reclaiming the moral high ground by always opposing homosexual behavior. One way to go on offense, he said, would be by proposing state bans on hormone therapy and surgery for transgender youth. Other notable anti-gay activists who addressed the gathering included Liberty Counsel’s Mat Staver (via video) and Brian Camenker of MassResistance.

More Salem style vilification and scapegoating. And the myths born of ignorance and fear, and the lies that speak to the deep seated animosity towards gays continues. Numbers 3, 4, 6, and 9 are especially egregious and represent the type of rhetoric that can lead to physical violence:

Myths and stereotypes that go unchallenged become stronger weapons for those who seek to oppress others in society. As the U.S.A. continues to evolve, and as gay men become increasingly more open about their true identities, we must take advantage of all opportunities to educate others about what is correct, and what isn't, in relation to male homosexuality.

Here are 10 of the most problematic myths and stereotypes which play a role in the mischaracterization and dehumanization of gay men in the U.S.

http://mic.com/articles/50621/10-biggest-lies-you-were-told-about-gay-men

And then there is the endless drum beat of fear mongering about how gay rights is antithetical to Christianity and that it will destroy the freedom of religion, and religion itself:

Ted Cruz and the politics of faith and fear: How the GOP mastered the art of exploiting scared Christians http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/ted-cruz-and-the-politics-of-faith-and-fear-how-the-gop-mastered-the-art-of-exploiting-scared-christians/

Cruz quoted from the oral argument in Obergefell v. Hodges to warn people of faith what will follow an adverse ruling on marriage:

“Justice [Samuel] Alito asked U.S. Solicitor-General Donald Verrilli: ‘If the Obama administration prevails and you convince this court to strike down the marriage laws of every state, would the next step be that the IRS would start going after Christian schools, Christian charities, and next after that Christian churches? Any institutions that follow a biblical teaching of marriage? Or for that matter, Jewish schools? Mormon schools? Any institution that follows religious teaching?’

The American Family Association is one of the most divisive and virulent organizations that is exploiting Christianity in there anti-gay crusade:

The American Family Association Publishes Interactive 'Bigotry Map' Featuring LGBT Organizations

A prominent fundamentalist organization is making headlines after creating an "anti-Christian bigotry map" which includes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) advocacy groups.

The American Family Association's interactive map, which can be found here, breaks down groups into four categories: anti-Christian, humanist, atheist and those with a "homosexual agenda." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/american-family-association-bigotry-map-_n_6754528.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

This is an extremely disconcerting development and represents a new low for those working against equality. As a last resort, the anti-equality forces have claimed victimhood and are, in fact blaming the victims. It is born of fear, prejudice and an increasing sense of desperation, and is attempting to hijack Christianity to stem the tide of progress in the area of human rights and evolving standards of decency. They purport to speak for the entire Christian faith, but in reality, represent a small, paranoid and reactionary fringe.

It is also disturbing to realize the depth of the divisiveness that has developed between these progressive rights organizations and a certain segment of the Christian community, a divisiveness that really does not need to be. The claims that the advance of gay rights and secularism an affront to Christians and impinges on religious freedom is without merit. While there are those that actually believe that is the case, others are knowingly promoting a false idea of religious liberty for their own purposes.

And let’s not forget the American evangelical, including some politicians who have traveled to Africa and Russia to promote those countries antigay agendas, which have included proposals to jail and even execute gays. Even right here in the U. S., in California to be exact, a ballot initiative to allow for the summary execution of gays was proposed.

It all comes down to this…..there are some of us who are not better, not smarter, and no more rational than the inhabitants of the Bay Colony, and if they were to achieve the control of government , Salem could indeed happen again.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

You are blathering as usual and saying nothing meaningful in the process.

Wow
I just gave example of
1. how some people can change orientation
2. how some people can't
3. how some people can change religions
4. how some people can't

And you are saying that is not meaningful.

I just explained how what you are saying
is right in some cases, and has exceptions
in others. How is that not clarifying what you said?

If my statements mean nothing,
what does that say about YOURS
that only gave 1/2 of the story?

I cover twice as much as you did.
ProgressivePatriot

Do you recognize this at all?
Are you even aware?

You gave examples? You mentioned “ a friend and spoke of “many people who have changed” Those are not example. They are appeals to ignorance because you just expect us to accept that at face value while you provide no actual details. If you do have a friend who believes that they made a choice about their sexual orientation, it may be that they are just as confused and ignorant about human sexuality as you are.

Are YOU aware of the difference between sexual orientation and lifestyle choices? People do make choices-yes. They make choices about sexual lifestyles because they may be bi sexual, or they may be bullied , shamed or coerced into changing their lifestyle even when doing so inflicts enormous pain and suffering on them, and it never ends well.

Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?

Are you aware that choosing to be monogamous and in a committed relationship is a choice but sexual orientation is not?

Are you aware of the fact that it is a hell of a lot easier to make the argument that religion is a choice- given the large numbers of people who change or renounce religion- that to argue that sexual orientation is a choice.?

Are you aware of the fact that “spirituality “ and beliefs have nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity.? They are what and what people are.

To your credit, you seem to be accepting of those who are gay or transgender and accept their right to be who they are. However, that acceptance is greatly mitigated by your dismissal and minimization of the harm that the theocrats and various other bigots do, and seek to do, to LGBT people. Harm and hatred that I have well documented here, but that you have nothing to say about.



You wreak of the attitude that you have expressed so many times before, that everyone, including the bigots who would oppress others can and should somehow be respected and accommodated. You continue to exude a profound ignorance of human sexuality and what it means to be LGBT.

As I said , you blather and say nothing useful.

 

[OldLady]

Here we go with the sexually retarded attempting to make the marriage issue about religious garbage.

Marriage isn't about honouring homosexual unions and it is most certainly not about honouring religion either, it is about honouring the unity of the one sexual orientation to which we all owe our very existence.

Here they are attempting to compare their lies and deception with witch hunts as they use every lie and deception to support their every lie and deception that they used to make this soon to be short lived mockery of marriage in the first place.

What really makes me laugh in their pathetic faces is that now that they have managed to make this soon to be short lived mockery of marriage, it's like they expected to sweep marriage under the rug and that they made a mockery of it would be forgotten and the problem they created for themselves would just go away. I got news for you, the party is just getting started.

The mentality of the homosexual activist is absolutely ridiculous.

Here they are attempting to make the issue about claiming that homosexuals don't choose to be born that way.

Whether or not homosexuals choose to be homosexual doesn't detract from the fact that thousands of years since marriage was created proves that marriage is about honouring the unity of the one sexual orientation to which we all owe our very existence and that sexual unity is quite obviously heterosexual unions, and that thanks to heterosexual unions each and every single human being even exists makes heterosexual unions quite obviously well above any other sexual union worth honouring with something called marriage. It is a distinction most worthy of acknowledgement which is why this pathetic modern day mockery homosexual activists have made of marriage will soon be short lived as marriage will soon be restored to the respectful state it was created for and in honour of.

Whether or not homosexuals choose to be born homosexual doesn't detract from the fact that if it were up to homosexual unions to sustain the human race, we would have died off thousands of years ago for weakly being a race of sexually defective and there is quite obviously not anything to honour in that in equal distinction to heterosexual unions, and no matter how much homosexuals and homosexuals refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are, that still does not change this fact.

Homosexual unions do not equal heterosexual unions no matter how much homosexuals and homosexual activists refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are. Whether or not homosexuals choose to be born homosexual or not doesn't detract from this fact and nor does it carry so much as a shred of validity to do with the foundation of this primary issue no matter how much homosexuals and homosexual activists refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are!

Yet the fact that since marriage was created and for thousands of years of only heterosexual unions being honoured with marriage prove that your so called belief is already falsified thus proven yet another homosexual activist lie.

Arranged marriages prove that marriage isn't about who you love, as well arranged marriages were always in honour of heterosexual unions. I made bold a paragraph within the following for you.

Marriage:
Fact: If it were up to homosexual unions to sustain the human race, we would have died off thousands of years ago for weakly being a race of sexually defective. Thanks to heterosexual unions we even exist which is the factual evidence that proves homosexual unions do not equal heterosexual unions and that thousands of years of only heterosexual unions being honoured with marriage proves that marriage was never about honouring that if it were up to homosexual unions to sustain the human race, we would have died off thousands of years ago for weakly being a race of sexually defective. Thousands of years Homosexual activists are calling marriage an equality issue when homosexual unions do not even equal heterosexual unions to begin with quite obviously.

I know many of you are aware of this as I myself was made aware by the media as it happened over the years and each and every time homosexual activists failed, they attempted a new lies and deceptions all the while evading the fact that thousands of years prove that marriage is about honouring heterosexual unions. (hence the insane homosexual activist obsessive compulsive lying deceiving mentality) Not one of them ever will contest this fact with so much as a shred of validity as not one of them ever did. All they do is attempt to make their delusions the issue such as:
They attempted to make the issue about some people in society feeling uncomfortable about different human racial variations getting married. Yet even different variations of the human race getting married was also always in honour of the unity of male and female!!!

*They even deceptively tried to make marriage to be about being with who you love. They again ignored the fact that love may have been present in many marriages but marriage itself was always between heterosexual unions of which beside that primary fact to do with this issue, not every heterosexual couple got married out of love and the USA Supreme Court themselves even acknowledges this fact and I'll get to that just below!!!*

They also tried to make the issue about heterosexual couples who are not able to birth children and can still get married. That was when they were deceptively trying to make the issue of marriage into "marriage isn't about procreation." What they avoided, I find quite obvious, is the fact that heterosexual couples that can not have children still doesn't disrespect that marriage was created for and in honour of heterosexual unions!!! Marriage wouldn't even exist now if it were not for heterosexual unions. None of us would even exist now if it were not for heterosexual unions which quite obviously makes heterosexual unions, well above all other unions, worth honouring. If it were up to homosexuality to sustain the human population, we quite obviously would have died off thousands of years ago for weakly being a race of sexually defective and where is the honour in that?
Because it was brought to homosexual activists attention that marriage isn't about honouring that if it were up to homosexuals to sustain the human race, we would have died off thousands of years ago for weakly being a race of sexually defective thus exemplifying that marriage is being disrespected by these activists attempting to make a complete mockery of it, they then attempted to claim that divorce disrespects marriage in attempt to make their delusions the issue once again. Yet the fact remains that divorce certainly doesn't disrespect the fact that marriage was created for and in honour of heterosexual unions, but homosexual activists attempt every lie and deception in attempt to make their delusions the issue.
Homosexual activists even have even become scholars in recent past then attempted to claim that every gay relationship they could find recorded throughout history was a marriage. I was in two relationships myself but was never married but if homosexual activists thought it would help their lies and deceptions they would call each of my relationships a marriage because they try and make every lie and deception that they can possibly fathom appear relevant in attempt to try and make their delusions the issue! Back in the Days of the Roman Empire for example homosexuals were beheaded for attempting to make a mockery of marriage but homosexual activists attempt to claim such short lived mockeries as actual marriages.
Homosexual activists have even attempted to make ghost marriages the issue of which ghost marriages were about honouring heterosexual unions of couples after they passed away because of such things in some cultures where the second born could not marry before the first born of a family. So if the first born never married, the family would have to wait until the next sibling died to have a ghost marriage!
The USA Supreme Courts lame excuse for supporting a bunch of filthy homosexual activist lies and deceptions:

The Court notes, marriage was once viewed as an arrangement in which women were treated as the property of their husbands and subordinate to their will. As the Court observes, this came to be viewed as grossly unjust and so the institution of marriage evolved to rid itself of the injustice.
Which is another factual example of marriage honouring the unity of the one sexual orientation to which we all owe our very existence and that union again are heterosexual unions before and after that court made a decision. Here is where the Supreme Court makes a complete mockery of themselves and in this instance the USA while then after expect citizens to respect a bunch of filthy lies and deceptions or face jail:
Today the Court announces that that time has come to recognize the injustice in the disparate treatment of gays and lesbians seeking the right to marry.
Homosexual activists lie by claiming that there is discrimination or an injustice but they obviously do not back that claim with even so much as a shred of validity because this is not an equality or discrimination issue because we all equally have the right to marry those born with the opposite sex genital that we ourselves are born with because that is what marriage was created for and in honour of and thousands of years of only heterosexual unions being honoured with marriage proves it beyond any shadow of doubt.
Homosexual activists even attempt such rhetoric as: The fact something is usually done in some way does not prove that it is has to be done that way, or that it should be done that way
Not anything will ever change the fact throughout the existence of the human race that thanks to heterosexual unions we even exist which is worth honouring with marriage (hence is what marriage was created for and in honour of and thousands of years proves it) no matter how desperately homosexual activist scramble to try and make their every lie and deception the issue because they refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are! Because homosexual activists refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are they are throwing away tax dollars with their every lie and deception while causing headaches over complete garbage and I say make these imbeciles pay back every cent out of their own insane pockets! It's likely enough to bring any country enduring such rhetoric out of deficit and beyond!

again

thanks to heterosexual unions each and every single human being even exists makes heterosexual unions quite obviously well above any other sexual union worth honouring with something called marriage. It is a distinction most worthy of acknowledgement which is why this pathetic modern day mockery homosexual activists have made of marriage will soon be short lived as marriage will soon be restored to the respectful state it was created for and in honour of.

if it were up to homosexual unions to sustain the human race, we would have died off thousands of years ago for weakly being a race of sexually defective and there is quite obviously not anything to honour in that in equal distinction to heterosexual unions, and no matter how much homosexuals and homosexuals refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are, that still does not change this fact.

Homosexual unions do not equal heterosexual unions no matter how much homosexuals and homosexual activists refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are. Whether or not homosexuals choose to be born homosexual or not doesn't detract from this fact and nor does it carry so much as a shred of validity to do with the foundation of this primary issue no matter how much homosexuals and homosexual activists refuse to accept homosexuals for what homosexuals are!

again

Thousands of years since marriage was created proves that marriage is about honouring the unity of the one sexual orientation to which we all owe our very existence and that sexual unity is quite obviously heterosexual unions, and that thanks to heterosexual unions each and every single human being even exists makes heterosexual unions quite obviously well above any other sexual union worth honouring with something called marriage. It is a distinction most worthy of acknowledgement which is why this pathetic modern day mockery homosexual activists have made of marriage will soon be short lived as marriage will soon be restored to the respectful state it was created for and in honour of.

love

Primary Factual Fundamentalist World Class Activist
David Jeffrey Spetch
Ps. Be good, be strong!
Hamilton Ontario Canada

Sorry, I didn't mean to upset you so badly. That is one hell of a rant.

You have just been schooled, get over it Pig Pen.

If it were merely a rant then surely you would have been able to contest it with so much as a shred of validity.

love

Primary Factual Fundamentalist World Class Activist
David Jeffrey Spetch
Ps. Be good, be strong!
Hamilton Ontario Canada

You spent a whole lot of words saying marriage is about honoring the union of male and female, which we all have to thank for our existence. A whole lot of words.
Men who were born sexually attracted to men and women who were born sexually attracted to women don't dishonor marriage by being given the legal acknowledgement of marriage. Why should anyone live in shame and secrecy because of who they love? If they want a lasting, responsible commitment to a partner for life, why is that in any way shaming to those of us who pair up male and female, as Mother Nature intended?

Your argument ain't so big, Mr. Spetch, just a lot of hot air.

 

[OldLady]

If you don't see the difference between burning perceived evil at the stake and a fight against being forced to redefine marriage then you're out of your mind.

Witches weren't trying to force their values on people. Heck, they didn't even really exist there.

There is a huge difference between criminal punishment for behavior and retaining civil traditions and values. The two aren't even comparable

I thought it was an interesting and apt comparison. The meaning of marriage hasn't changed. Some people are targeting homosexuals for hatred far beyond any reasonable merit. It is a 'witch hunt' of sorts. What business is it of yours who someone beds or weds?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

If you don't see the difference between burning perceived evil at the stake and a fight against being forced to redefine marriage then you're out of your mind.

Witches weren't trying to force their values on people. Heck, they didn't even really exist there.

There is a huge difference between criminal punishment for behavior and retaining civil traditions and values. The two aren't even comparable

No one is forcing anybody to redefine marriage. Each individual and couple define their marriage as they see fit. If you are so weak minded as to think that others can do that for you, it's your problem and no one else's If you are so insecure that you think that your marriage is threatened because it is now more inclusive, again, that's your problem. Maybe you need to re-assess the status of your marriage.

Witches were not trying to force their values on anyone and neither are gays. The difference between "criminal penalties" and preserving tradition is not that different when you consider the fact that denying a group basic civil rights deprives them of the ability to live in freedome and have the same access to full participation in society as others- much in the same way that those convicted of a crime are.The difference is that gays have not committed a crime.

 

[emilynghiem]

Note: This is not intended to disparage Christian’s or all religious people who hold different values that myself. It is, however, intended to shine a light on those who would use their religion as a weapon to marginalize and disenfranchise others.

Ask anyone what they think happened in Salem Mass. In 1692 and they are likely to say something to the effect that some unsophisticated settlers, given to religious fervor and superstition during a harsh winter and desolate conditions, became obsessed with evil and targeted those who they saw as a threat. Ask those same people if such a thing could happen today, and they are likely to say “of course not!”

However, I submit to you that it is in fact happening again, only this time gays-not witches are the target. Consider:

In Salem witches were viewed as being possessed by evil that must be exorcised. The religious right of today see gays has being sick and in need of a cure.

The members of the Bay Colony saw witches as a threat to their Christian beliefs and even a threat to the continued existence of Christianity. Today, the religious right speaks passionately about their religious freedom being violated by gay rights and the criminalization of Christianity.

The settlers were driven by ignorance and fear of the unknown, and the need for a scapegoat to blame their problems on witches-which included a small pox outbreak and the perception of religious persecution. Today, we can see these same forces at work among the virulently religious right who have blamed gays for everything from natural disasters, and disease to the risen of liberal secularism.

Yes, the colonists were beset by real and present dangers- Native American’s , pirates, economic difficulties and political tensions with England which added to the stress which in turn contributed to the hysteria and the need to blame someone. We see the same dynamic playing out today with the fear of Islam and ISIS, uncertainty about the economy and the fact that there are people in power who do not reflect their values.

The settlers were so threatened by those who they deemed witches that they imprisoned and murdered them. Today, most on the right do not advocate imprisonment, burning at the stake, or drowning. However, there are those who do lament the decriminalization of homosexuality and some who have in fact advocated the imprisonment and execution of gays.

As in 1692, there is an identifiable triggering condition now. Then, it was a difficult winter living in isolation. Now, it is the rapid rise of the acceptance of gay people, and the speed at which they have gained legal rights culminating in marriage equality

If anyone wishes to question the voracity of this analogy, I invite you to first review a brief history of the Salem witch trials:

The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History The Salem Witch Trials: Facts & History


The Salem Witch Trials was a classic example of scapegoating. Fear combined with a “trigger,” a traumatic or stressful event, is what often leads to scapegoating. Fear of the Devil, and witches who did his bidding, was very real in Salem at the time.

During this time period, people feared that the Devil was constantly trying to find ways to infiltrate and destroy Christians and their communities.

The puritans, who had left England due to religious persecution, feared they were under attack again and were losing control of their colony. A feeling of uneasiness and discontent surrounded them.

Other factors included a recent small pox epidemic in the colony, growing rivalries between families within the colony, a constant threat of attack from nearby Native-American tribes, and a recent influx of refugees trying to escape King William’s war with France in Canada and upstate New York.

“It was the darkest and most desponding period in the civil history of New England. The people, whose ruling passion then was, as it has ever since been, a love for constitutional rights, had, a few years before, been thrown into dismay by the loss of their charter, and, from that time, kept in a feverish state of anxiety respecting their political destinies. In addition to all this, the whole sea-coast was exposed to danger: ruthless pirates were continually prowling the shores. Commerce was nearly extinguished, and great losses had been experienced by men in business. A recent expedition against Canada had exposed the colonies to the vengeance of France.”

Now, let’s have a closer look at what is happening today. Enter Mike Huckabee:

Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism' –

Huckabee, however, seems to have changed his tune on culture-war boycotts. Time reports that Huckabee has “called on Christians to boycott all snacks made by” Frito Lay after it released limited edition Rainbow Doritos to benefit the anti-bullying It Gets Better Project. –

The GOP presidential candidate’s anti-Frito Lay campaign reportedly came at the behest of David Lane, a Republican organizer who has linked gays to everything from car bombs to America’s looming destruction and who bizarrely suggests that the creation of Rainbow Doritos could destroy America and curtail religious freedom. - See more at: Mike Huckabee: Boycott Rainbow Doritos! But Chick-Fil-A Boycott Was 'Economic Terrorism'

Clearly, he is demonizing and scapegoating gays. Here is more from a supporter of another presidential contender who apparently has no problem with her extreme and bizarre views

Ted Cruz Welcomes The Endorsement Of Anti-Gay Hate Group Official And Radio Host Sandy Rios –

In her capacity as a radio host for the AFA, Rios has repeatedly attacked gays, Muslims and Jews while promoting conspiracy theories and issuing repeated warnings that God's judgment will soon fall upon this nation: - Here are just some of her rantings

• Sandy Rios: Gay Rainbows Increase Terrorism Threat for America.

• Sandy Rios Predicts Major Worldwide Disaster In Divine Punishment For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Religious Right Activists: God Will Punish America For Gay Marriage.
  
  
  
• Anti-Gay Pundit: Homosexuality 'A Factor' In Amtrak Crash.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: 'You Must Prepare For Martyrdom' If Gay Marriage Becomes Legal.
  
  
  
• Sandy Rios: Children are 'Sexually Abused' by 'Homosexual Advocacy' in Schools. - See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-welcomes-endorsement-anti-gay-hate-group-official-and-radio-host-sandy-rios#sthash.JcToAH70.dpuf

Now let’s talk about the World Congress of Families which met recently in Salt Lake City….

Peter Sprigg delivered the morning keynote; Rev. Bill Owens of the National Organization for Marriage-affiliated Coalition of African American Pastors delivered the afternoon keynote.

Sprigg, who is also scheduled to speak at WCF on Wednesday, set the tone for the day by challenging the “gay identity paradigm” and urging social conservatives to avoid as much as possible using the words “gay” and “lesbian” because he said they refer to someone’s innate identity. Sprigg urged activists to separate sexual attraction, sexual behavior, and a person’s self-identification and instead to focus on gay relationships, which he called “objectively harmful to the people who engage in it and to society at large.”

Also arguing for an uncompromising stance and “zero affirmation of the gay rights paradigm” was Americans For Truth About Homosexuality’s Peter LaBarbera, who urged anti-gay activists to stop playing defense and go on the offense, reclaiming the moral high ground by always opposing homosexual behavior. One way to go on offense, he said, would be by proposing state bans on hormone therapy and surgery for transgender youth. Other notable anti-gay activists who addressed the gathering included Liberty Counsel’s Mat Staver (via video) and Brian Camenker of MassResistance.

More Salem style vilification and scapegoating. And the myths born of ignorance and fear, and the lies that speak to the deep seated animosity towards gays continues. Numbers 3, 4, 6, and 9 are especially egregious and represent the type of rhetoric that can lead to physical violence:

Myths and stereotypes that go unchallenged become stronger weapons for those who seek to oppress others in society. As the U.S.A. continues to evolve, and as gay men become increasingly more open about their true identities, we must take advantage of all opportunities to educate others about what is correct, and what isn't, in relation to male homosexuality.

Here are 10 of the most problematic myths and stereotypes which play a role in the mischaracterization and dehumanization of gay men in the U.S.

http://mic.com/articles/50621/10-biggest-lies-you-were-told-about-gay-men

And then there is the endless drum beat of fear mongering about how gay rights is antithetical to Christianity and that it will destroy the freedom of religion, and religion itself:

Ted Cruz and the politics of faith and fear: How the GOP mastered the art of exploiting scared Christians http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/ted-cruz-and-the-politics-of-faith-and-fear-how-the-gop-mastered-the-art-of-exploiting-scared-christians/

Cruz quoted from the oral argument in Obergefell v. Hodges to warn people of faith what will follow an adverse ruling on marriage:

“Justice [Samuel] Alito asked U.S. Solicitor-General Donald Verrilli: ‘If the Obama administration prevails and you convince this court to strike down the marriage laws of every state, would the next step be that the IRS would start going after Christian schools, Christian charities, and next after that Christian churches? Any institutions that follow a biblical teaching of marriage? Or for that matter, Jewish schools? Mormon schools? Any institution that follows religious teaching?’

The American Family Association is one of the most divisive and virulent organizations that is exploiting Christianity in there anti-gay crusade:

The American Family Association Publishes Interactive 'Bigotry Map' Featuring LGBT Organizations

A prominent fundamentalist organization is making headlines after creating an "anti-Christian bigotry map" which includes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) advocacy groups.

The American Family Association's interactive map, which can be found here, breaks down groups into four categories: anti-Christian, humanist, atheist and those with a "homosexual agenda." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/25/american-family-association-bigotry-map-_n_6754528.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

This is an extremely disconcerting development and represents a new low for those working against equality. As a last resort, the anti-equality forces have claimed victimhood and are, in fact blaming the victims. It is born of fear, prejudice and an increasing sense of desperation, and is attempting to hijack Christianity to stem the tide of progress in the area of human rights and evolving standards of decency. They purport to speak for the entire Christian faith, but in reality, represent a small, paranoid and reactionary fringe.

It is also disturbing to realize the depth of the divisiveness that has developed between these progressive rights organizations and a certain segment of the Christian community, a divisiveness that really does not need to be. The claims that the advance of gay rights and secularism an affront to Christians and impinges on religious freedom is without merit. While there are those that actually believe that is the case, others are knowingly promoting a false idea of religious liberty for their own purposes.

And let’s not forget the American evangelical, including some politicians who have traveled to Africa and Russia to promote those countries antigay agendas, which have included proposals to jail and even execute gays. Even right here in the U. S., in California to be exact, a ballot initiative to allow for the summary execution of gays was proposed.

It all comes down to this…..there are some of us who are not better, not smarter, and no more rational than the inhabitants of the Bay Colony, and if they were to achieve the control of government , Salem could indeed happen again.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

You are blathering as usual and saying nothing meaningful in the process.

Wow
I just gave example of
1. how some people can change orientation
2. how some people can't
3. how some people can change religions
4. how some people can't

And you are saying that is not meaningful.

I just explained how what you are saying
is right in some cases, and has exceptions
in others. How is that not clarifying what you said?

If my statements mean nothing,
what does that say about YOURS
that only gave 1/2 of the story?

I cover twice as much as you did.
ProgressivePatriot

Do you recognize this at all?
Are you even aware?

You gave examples? You mentioned “ a friend and spoke of “many people who have changed” Those are not example. They are appeals to ignorance because you just expect us to accept that at face value while you provide no actual details. If you do have a friend who believes that they made a choice about their sexual orientation, it may be that they are just as confused and ignorant about human sexuality as you are.

Are YOU aware of the difference between sexual orientation and lifestyle choices? People do make choices-yes. They make choices about sexual lifestyles because they may be bi sexual, or they may be bullied , shamed or coerced into changing their lifestyle even when doing so inflicts enormous pain and suffering on them, and it never ends well.

Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?

Are you aware that choosing to be monogamous and in a committed relationship is a choice but sexual orientation is not?

Are you aware of the fact that it is a hell of a lot easier to make the argument that religion is a choice- given the large numbers of people who change or renounce religion- that to argue that sexual orientation is a choice.?

Are you aware of the fact that “spirituality “ and beliefs have nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity.? They are what and what people are.

To your credit, you seem to be accepting of those who are gay or transgender and accept their right to be who they are. However, that acceptance is greatly mitigated by your dismissal and minimization of the harm that the theocrats and various other bigots do, and seek to do, to LGBT people. Harm and hatred that I have well documented here, but that you have nothing to say about.



You wreak of the attitude that you have expressed so many times before, that everyone, including the bigots who would oppress others can and should somehow be respected and accommodated. You continue to exude a profound ignorance of human sexuality and what it means to be LGBT.

As I said , you blather and say nothing useful.

Hi ProgressivePatriot Thanks for responding.

1. No I DON'T expect anyone to take anything at face value.

I have been posting and posting
links and references to programs that can MEDICALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY prove the process through studies.

I am serious about the medical research.

I have asked help of others to set up research on spiritual healing as applied to curing cancer, criminal illness, eating disorders that kill people, all kinds of serious costly conditions.

The same process that works for these cases is the "generational" healing therapy that is used when people recovering from abuse also change their orientation as a result *IN CASES WHERE IT IS TIED TO THAT*.

2. If you notice, PP all the other assertions and beliefs people have about homosexuality "not being able to be changed" are ALSO BASED ON EXAMPLES of people we personally know who cannot change or have reported that.

This isn't scientifically proven either!!!
It's all based on personal experiences and examples, too!

That's why I am asking for follow up to formal research studies on the process of spiritual healing. So this WILL be proven.

Where have you been, ProgressivePatriot ?

Everyone else on here must be sick of hearing me ask for more support to demand "equal funding" for research into spiritual healing that is invested in marijuana research studies, for example.

I've tied this to health care and criminal justice reform, and posted msg after msg about that.

All of this is based on establishing medical research and proof so that this process is made available to the public instead of keeping it privatized to only the people who know it works.

So that's all I've preached about, is how the medical establishment of this as common practice would REVOLUTIONIZE our mental health, medical and prison systems.

Please!

 

[emilynghiem]

RE: The difference is that gays have not committed a crime.

1. The legislation that pushed for the govt to only recognize traditional marriage and to ban same sex marriage "violated Constitutional equal protections and religious freedom" by establishing one biased belief or practice at the exclusion of other people with beliefs not protected or represented.

So that violated laws.

2. Likewise, the legislation that forced the public/govt to recognize and include same sex marriage, similarly against the beliefs of others, ALSO violated the rule of law about "Govt not establishing religion".

So that violated the same principle of keeping beliefs out of govt.

Instead, the laws have been abused to PUNISH citizens for not complying with unconstitutional policies forcing them to "attend gay weddings in order to provide services" which isn't normally covered under business accommodation laws.

So pushing either biased beliefs about marriage "THROUGH THE GOVT" **IS** VIOLATING the Constitutional equal protections of people of other faiths or beliefs.

Anyone abusing the legal or legislative system to establish unconstitutional policies through Govt, which discriminate and or exclude coerce or penalize citizens on the basis of their beliefs, is basically
CONSPIRING TO VIOLATE EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS.

Do you consider that a civil violation?
Political or legal abuse?
What do you call it, ProgressivePatriot since it isn't a crime unless you can prove CONSPIRACY on a criminal level. In that case aren't both political parties equally guilty of conspiring to abuse govt to exclude, oppress, or violate the equal beliefs and rights of the other side?

At the very least it is Unconstitutional, but because of clashing political beliefs that it is or is not, then not even the Govt has been able to establish an agreement on this; so instead we have parties both abusing Govt to push and "establish their own beliefs" which is technically unconstitutional on both sides. They are both wrong if they don't stay neutral where all beliefs are treated equally.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear ProgressivePatriot
RE: "
Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?"

NO because
1. it does not apply to people who are already how they are naturally and aren't going to change.
2. it EQUALLY applies to people who WERE male and came out female or who WERE heterosexual and came out homosexual.

I am NOT excluding anyone's experience or path and NOT "forcing" this on anyone. My whole point is that spiritual healing is NOT forced on anyone, and is the same process used when people come out EITHER gay OR straight OR transgender etc.
Completely by free and natural choice or it isn't real.

Ironically PP you are the only one I see being EXCLUSIVE.

Because YOU are saying that NO CASES of homosexuality can change and it's NEVER a choice.

I didn't exclude cases where people don't change, but YOU EXCLUDED cases where people did.

Do you have any idea how offensively wrong that is to deny the experiences of people who HAVE changed?

I wasn't denying anything about people who are naturally transgendered, gay etc.

You were the only one being exclusive here, do you recognize that?

That I *AM* accommodating all the cases, but YOU were not. YOU were excluding as if those people's experiences don't exist and don't count!

 

[emilynghiem]

BTW ProgressivePatriot about the legal violations or abuses with marriage laws and beliefs being established through govt and thereby violating Constitutional principles, rights, beliefs, equality etc.

The Tricky thing about marriage is acknowledging that even when only traditional marriage (and benefits based on that) was established through govt, this already crossed the line "separating church from state."

So you can start counting the violation at that point, to be fair. Where it already excluded and discriminated against same sex marriage and couples who couldn't practice and endorse their beliefs about benefits through govt "to the same degree as traditional married couples"

But people didn't complain until AFTER the same sex marriages were added in to try to equalize this.

So if they didn't agree, the fair solution would be to REMOVE marriage / benefits all together from govt, and either keep these separate/private and/or give taxpayers the option of choosing what policy to support.

Where it gets into conflict:
If people recognize traditional marriage through govt but not same sex, then that's contradictory to begin with.

You can't contradict the very Constitutional laws you are trying to invoke and enforce.

To be consistent, I'd stick with civil unions and contracts, and separate social benefits by party. And quit the bickering over beliefs that are spelled out in the parties and can be represented and administered completely separately!

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Ask anyone what they think happened in Salem Mass. In 1692 and they are likely to say something to the effect that some unsophisticated settlers, given to religious fervor and superstition during a harsh winter and desolate conditions, became obsessed with evil and targeted those who they saw as a threat. Ask those same people if such a thing could happen today, and they are likely to say “of course not!”

However, I submit to you that it is in fact happening again, only this time gays-not witches are the target. Consider:

In Salem witches were viewed as being possessed by evil that must be exorcised. The religious right of today see gays has being sick and in need of a cure.

The members of the Bay Colony saw witches as a threat to their Christian beliefs and even a threat to the continued existence of Christianity. Today, the religious right speaks passionately about their religious freedom being violated by gay rights and the criminalization of Christianity.

The settlers were driven by ignorance and fear of the unknown, and the need for a scapegoat to blame their problems on witches-which included a small pox outbreak and the perception of religious persecution. Today, we can see these same forces at work among the virulently religious right who have blamed gays for everything from natural disasters, and disease to the risen of liberal secularism.

Yes, the colonists were beset by real and present dangers- Native American’s , pirates, economic difficulties and political tensions with England which added to the stress which in turn contributed to the hysteria and the need to blame someone. We see the same dynamic playing out today with the fear of Islam and ISIS, uncertainty about the economy and the fact that there are people in power who do not reflect their values.

The settlers were so threatened by those who they deemed witches that they imprisoned and murdered them. Today, most on the right do not advocate imprisonment, burning at the stake, or drowning. However, there are those who do lament the decriminalization of homosexuality and some who have in fact advocated the imprisonment and execution of gays.

As in 1692, there is an identifiable triggering condition now. Then, it was a difficult winter living in isolation. Now, it is the rapid rise of the acceptance of gay people, and the speed at which they have gained legal rights culminating in marriage equality

If anyone wishes to question the voracity of this analogy, I invite you to first review a brief history of the Salem witch trials:

Now, let’s have a closer look at what is happening today. Enter Mike Huckabee:
Clearly, he is demonizing and scapegoating gays. Here is more from a supporter of another presidential contender who apparently has no problem with her extreme and bizarre views

Now let’s talk about the World Congress of Families which met recently in Salt Lake City….


More Salem style vilification and scapegoating. And the myths born of ignorance and fear, and the lies that speak to the deep seated animosity towards gays continues. Numbers 3, 4, 6, and 9 are especially egregious and represent the type of rhetoric that can lead to physical violence:


And then there is the endless drum beat of fear mongering about how gay rights is antithetical to Christianity and that it will destroy the freedom of religion, and religion itself:

The American Family Association is one of the most divisive and virulent organizations that is exploiting Christianity in there anti-gay crusade:

This is an extremely disconcerting development and represents a new low for those working against equality. As a last resort, the anti-equality forces have claimed victimhood and are, in fact blaming the victims. It is born of fear, prejudice and an increasing sense of desperation, and is attempting to hijack Christianity to stem the tide of progress in the area of human rights and evolving standards of decency. They purport to speak for the entire Christian faith, but in reality, represent a small, paranoid and reactionary fringe.

It is also disturbing to realize the depth of the divisiveness that has developed between these progressive rights organizations and a certain segment of the Christian community, a divisiveness that really does not need to be. The claims that the advance of gay rights and secularism an affront to Christians and impinges on religious freedom is without merit. While there are those that actually believe that is the case, others are knowingly promoting a false idea of religious liberty for their own purposes.

And let’s not forget the American evangelical, including some politicians who have traveled to Africa and Russia to promote those countries antigay agendas, which have included proposals to jail and even execute gays. Even right here in the U. S., in California to be exact, a ballot initiative to allow for the summary execution of gays was proposed.

It all comes down to this…..there are some of us who are not better, not smarter, and no more rational than the inhabitants of the Bay Colony, and if they were to achieve the control of government , Salem could indeed happen again.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

You are blathering as usual and saying nothing meaningful in the process.

Wow
I just gave example of
1. how some people can change orientation
2. how some people can't
3. how some people can change religions
4. how some people can't

And you are saying that is not meaningful.

I just explained how what you are saying
is right in some cases, and has exceptions
in others. How is that not clarifying what you said?

If my statements mean nothing,
what does that say about YOURS
that only gave 1/2 of the story?

I cover twice as much as you did.
ProgressivePatriot

Do you recognize this at all?
Are you even aware?

You gave examples? You mentioned “ a friend and spoke of “many people who have changed” Those are not example. They are appeals to ignorance because you just expect us to accept that at face value while you provide no actual details. If you do have a friend who believes that they made a choice about their sexual orientation, it may be that they are just as confused and ignorant about human sexuality as you are.

Are YOU aware of the difference between sexual orientation and lifestyle choices? People do make choices-yes. They make choices about sexual lifestyles because they may be bi sexual, or they may be bullied , shamed or coerced into changing their lifestyle even when doing so inflicts enormous pain and suffering on them, and it never ends well.

Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?

Are you aware that choosing to be monogamous and in a committed relationship is a choice but sexual orientation is not?

Are you aware of the fact that it is a hell of a lot easier to make the argument that religion is a choice- given the large numbers of people who change or renounce religion- that to argue that sexual orientation is a choice.?

Are you aware of the fact that “spirituality “ and beliefs have nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity.? They are what and what people are.

To your credit, you seem to be accepting of those who are gay or transgender and accept their right to be who they are. However, that acceptance is greatly mitigated by your dismissal and minimization of the harm that the theocrats and various other bigots do, and seek to do, to LGBT people. Harm and hatred that I have well documented here, but that you have nothing to say about.



You wreak of the attitude that you have expressed so many times before, that everyone, including the bigots who would oppress others can and should somehow be respected and accommodated. You continue to exude a profound ignorance of human sexuality and what it means to be LGBT.

As I said , you blather and say nothing useful.

Hi ProgressivePatriot Thanks for responding.

1. No I DON'T expect anyone to take anything at face value.

I have been posting and posting
links and references to programs that can MEDICALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY prove the process through studies.

I am serious about the medical research.

I have asked help of others to set up research on spiritual healing as applied to curing cancer, criminal illness, eating disorders that kill people, all kinds of serious costly conditions.

The same process that works for these cases is the "generational" healing therapy that is used when people recovering from abuse also change their orientation as a result *IN CASES WHERE IT IS TIED TO THAT*.

2. If you notice, PP all the other assertions and beliefs people have about homosexuality "not being able to be changed" are ALSO BASED ON EXAMPLES of people we personally know who cannot change or have reported that.

This isn't scientifically proven either!!!
It's all based on personal experiences and examples, too!

That's why I am asking for follow up to formal research studies on the process of spiritual healing. So this WILL be proven.

Where have you been, ProgressivePatriot ?

Everyone else on here must be sick of hearing me ask for more support to demand "equal funding" for research into spiritual healing that is invested in marijuana research studies, for example.

I've tied this to health care and criminal justice reform, and posted msg after msg about that.

All of this is based on establishing medical research and proof so that this process is made available to the public instead of keeping it privatized to only the people who know it works.

So that's all I've preached about, is how the medical establishment of this as common practice would REVOLUTIONIZE our mental health, medical and prison systems.

Please!

Is it really possible that you are so obtuse that you can't understand that homosexuality is not a disease or condition that is in need of "healing"??

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Dear ProgressivePatriot
RE: "
Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?"

NO because
1. it does not apply to people who are already how they are naturally and aren't going to change.
2. it EQUALLY applies to people who WERE male and came out female or who WERE heterosexual and came out homosexual.

I am NOT excluding anyone's experience or path and NOT "forcing" this on anyone. My whole point is that spiritual healing is NOT forced on anyone, and is the same process used when people come out EITHER gay OR straight OR transgender etc.
Completely by free and natural choice or it isn't real.

Ironically PP you are the only one I see being EXCLUSIVE.

Because YOU are saying that NO CASES of homosexuality can change and it's NEVER a choice.

I didn't exclude cases where people don't change, but YOU EXCLUDED cases where people did.

Do you have any idea how offensively wrong that is to deny the experiences of people who HAVE changed?

I wasn't denying anything about people who are naturally transgendered, gay etc.

You were the only one being exclusive here, do you recognize that?

That I *AM* accommodating all the cases, but YOU were not. YOU were excluding as if those people's experiences don't exist and don't count!

It's apparent that you STILL do not get the concept that sexual orientation and "lifestyle " are different things. Look, any competent adult who is gay thinks that they want to change is free to try, and it will likely end badly and unhappily if they are in fact truly gay. However, no one need your preaching about spiritual healing.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

BTW ProgressivePatriot about the legal violations or abuses with marriage laws and beliefs being established through govt and thereby violating Constitutional principles, rights, beliefs, equality etc.

The Tricky thing about marriage is acknowledging that even when only traditional marriage (and benefits based on that) was established through govt, this already crossed the line "separating church from state."

So you can start counting the violation at that point, to be fair. Where it already excluded and discriminated against same sex marriage and couples who couldn't practice and endorse their beliefs about benefits through govt "to the same degree as traditional married couples"

But people didn't complain until AFTER the same sex marriages were added in to try to equalize this.

So if they didn't agree, the fair solution would be to REMOVE marriage / benefits all together from govt, and either keep these separate/private and/or give taxpayers the option of choosing what policy to support.

Where it gets into conflict:
If people recognize traditional marriage through govt but not same sex, then that's contradictory to begin with.

You can't contradict the very Constitutional laws you are trying to invoke and enforce.

To be consistent, I'd stick with civil unions and contracts, and separate social benefits by party. And quit the bickering over beliefs that are spelled out in the parties and can be represented and administered completely separately!

WE have been all through this crap about getting government out of marriage far too many times before. That is just another red herring to divert attention away from the topic of this thread- which you still cannot address or acknowledge - and that is the persecution, abuse , and discrimination perpetrated by the far right wing bigots who you continue to be an apologist for.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Yes and No. and No way.
1.Yes, there are many people who attest to the fact they were healed of past issues that then changed their homosexual life and orientation to straight, where they recognize that heterosexuality as their natural default self, and not the other.

2. No, not all cases are like this.

and 3. NO WAY to the witch hunt judgmental approach.

In fact the only people who have succeeded in therapy to help anyone change who can change RENOUNCE the whole approach of judgment and condemnation.

The only thing that works is full acceptance to facilitate healing and recovery from abuse.

Rejection does NOT work.

And no, this healing does not apply in all cases. There are plenty of people who don't need or want to change, and this has NOTHING to do with them.

You would not judge people who had two different types of DIABETES, where some could be changed with diet and some couldn't be helped.

Why the [HECK] do we judge people when we are talking about totally separate scenarios? Where judgment and condemnation doesn't apply to either one?

WTF x 1000

You are blathering as usual and saying nothing meaningful in the process.

Wow
I just gave example of
1. how some people can change orientation
2. how some people can't
3. how some people can change religions
4. how some people can't

And you are saying that is not meaningful.

I just explained how what you are saying
is right in some cases, and has exceptions
in others. How is that not clarifying what you said?

If my statements mean nothing,
what does that say about YOURS
that only gave 1/2 of the story?

I cover twice as much as you did.
ProgressivePatriot

Do you recognize this at all?
Are you even aware?

You gave examples? You mentioned “ a friend and spoke of “many people who have changed” Those are not example. They are appeals to ignorance because you just expect us to accept that at face value while you provide no actual details. If you do have a friend who believes that they made a choice about their sexual orientation, it may be that they are just as confused and ignorant about human sexuality as you are.

Are YOU aware of the difference between sexual orientation and lifestyle choices? People do make choices-yes. They make choices about sexual lifestyles because they may be bi sexual, or they may be bullied , shamed or coerced into changing their lifestyle even when doing so inflicts enormous pain and suffering on them, and it never ends well.

Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?

Are you aware that choosing to be monogamous and in a committed relationship is a choice but sexual orientation is not?

Are you aware of the fact that it is a hell of a lot easier to make the argument that religion is a choice- given the large numbers of people who change or renounce religion- that to argue that sexual orientation is a choice.?

Are you aware of the fact that “spirituality “ and beliefs have nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity.? They are what and what people are.

To your credit, you seem to be accepting of those who are gay or transgender and accept their right to be who they are. However, that acceptance is greatly mitigated by your dismissal and minimization of the harm that the theocrats and various other bigots do, and seek to do, to LGBT people. Harm and hatred that I have well documented here, but that you have nothing to say about.



You wreak of the attitude that you have expressed so many times before, that everyone, including the bigots who would oppress others can and should somehow be respected and accommodated. You continue to exude a profound ignorance of human sexuality and what it means to be LGBT.

As I said , you blather and say nothing useful.

Hi ProgressivePatriot Thanks for responding.

1. No I DON'T expect anyone to take anything at face value.

I have been posting and posting
links and references to programs that can MEDICALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY prove the process through studies.

I am serious about the medical research.

I have asked help of others to set up research on spiritual healing as applied to curing cancer, criminal illness, eating disorders that kill people, all kinds of serious costly conditions.

The same process that works for these cases is the "generational" healing therapy that is used when people recovering from abuse also change their orientation as a result *IN CASES WHERE IT IS TIED TO THAT*.

2. If you notice, PP all the other assertions and beliefs people have about homosexuality "not being able to be changed" are ALSO BASED ON EXAMPLES of people we personally know who cannot change or have reported that.

This isn't scientifically proven either!!!
It's all based on personal experiences and examples, too!

That's why I am asking for follow up to formal research studies on the process of spiritual healing. So this WILL be proven.

Where have you been, ProgressivePatriot ?

Everyone else on here must be sick of hearing me ask for more support to demand "equal funding" for research into spiritual healing that is invested in marijuana research studies, for example.

I've tied this to health care and criminal justice reform, and posted msg after msg about that.

All of this is based on establishing medical research and proof so that this process is made available to the public instead of keeping it privatized to only the people who know it works.

So that's all I've preached about, is how the medical establishment of this as common practice would REVOLUTIONIZE our mental health, medical and prison systems.

Please!

Is it really possible that you are so obtuse that you can't understand that homosexuality is not a disease or condition that is in need of "healing"??

Dear ProgressivePatriot
Thanks, this KEY issue IS important to resolve and reach an understanding:

If people do not want to be angry or stressed all the time,
they can be healed of the issues causing that condition.

Anger is not a "disease," it is a natural response, part of grieving and recovery.
But if it is unwanted, or out of control like a wildfire, the person may want to change it.

Broken relationships can also be healed, and those are not a "disease."
Hurt feelings can be healed. Does that mean we are all "mentally ill"?
I don't think so.

The people who report being healed of past conditions that cause
"unnatural" or "unwanted" homosexual attractions do not call it
an illness or disease. They tend to describe it as being FREED
or changing, healing the past relationships, and recovering.

Why don't you interview real people who've been through this change?
I haven't heard one of them call it a sickness disease or illness.

Some people refer to alcoholism or racism as a "disease" that can be "healed."
But others who haven't gone through that recovery process may not relate to it that way.

It depends on the person.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear ProgressivePatriot
RE: "
Are YOU aware of the fact that when you speak of “healing “with respect to changing sexual orientation from gay to straight that you are being ignorant and bigoted towards gays?"

NO because
1. it does not apply to people who are already how they are naturally and aren't going to change.
2. it EQUALLY applies to people who WERE male and came out female or who WERE heterosexual and came out homosexual.

I am NOT excluding anyone's experience or path and NOT "forcing" this on anyone. My whole point is that spiritual healing is NOT forced on anyone, and is the same process used when people come out EITHER gay OR straight OR transgender etc.
Completely by free and natural choice or it isn't real.

Ironically PP you are the only one I see being EXCLUSIVE.

Because YOU are saying that NO CASES of homosexuality can change and it's NEVER a choice.

I didn't exclude cases where people don't change, but YOU EXCLUDED cases where people did.

Do you have any idea how offensively wrong that is to deny the experiences of people who HAVE changed?

I wasn't denying anything about people who are naturally transgendered, gay etc.

You were the only one being exclusive here, do you recognize that?

That I *AM* accommodating all the cases, but YOU were not. YOU were excluding as if those people's experiences don't exist and don't count!

It's apparent that you STILL do not get the concept that sexual orientation and "lifestyle " are different things. Look, any competent adult who is gay thinks that they want to change is free to try, and it will likely end badly and unhappily if they are in fact truly gay. However, no one need your preaching about spiritual healing.

Dear ProgressivePatriot
We are clearly talking about two different things, and even two or four different sets of people.

Here, I made a chart for you to compare all the cases I am including vs. you:

As for people changing their lifestyle on the outside
vs changing their orientation on the inside,
Do you say this about people who came out homosexual?
That they only changed their outside lifestyle?

The transgender friend who came out to me online
changed internally, forgave and let go all the anger rejection
and resentment about Christianity teaching negative things
about homosexuality and gender. And only after totally
changing perspectives and coming out as "her true self"
THEN "she" changed her outward appearance and way of identifying.

So this internal change happened first as the real key change.
It isn't just dressing up on the outside.

If you can understand this, with a transgender person,
could you understand the similar process when someone
changes from formerly identifying as homosexual,
then changing inside and out to embracing their natural
self as heterosexual?

Does this help? Thanks ProgressivePatriot

If you can be openminded that Transgender and Homosexual
people cannot help but be how they are, when they come out as themselves,
why can't we also include people who come out as straight after living as gay?

 

[SixFoot]

I'm expected to support two dudes "right" to disgust and confuse small children, and to support a woman's "right" to murder a child at her convenience, but I can't legally sit down and smoke a joint.