The Muslim Mosque: A State Within a State—Parts 1 & 2

[Kalam]

What do you mean by "this type of crap"?

Kuffar putting on false airs of expertise while they lamely attempt to rationalize the persecution of Muslims.

Do you disagree with this quote from the article:

"All the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims." —Muhammad, 630 A.D. at the occupation of Mecca

No reference was offered apart from the name of Muhammad (SAWS). The hadith collection and number were not specified; not even a page number reference for Subhani's book was provided. I'm suspect of any information that comes from a Shi'ite "scholar." You'll have to provide a more thorough citation before I can discuss that quote.

 

[Kalam]

Most American people have no idea of what the Quran calls it's followers to believe, nor the depth of the commitment of it's adherents, precisely because of the freedoms Americans have have ALWAYS enjoyed, and specifically regarding our adamant refusal to allow church to BECOME state, and vice versa.

I agree. You, the OP, Mr. Kumar, and the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims fall into this category. Reading quote-mined portions of the Qur'an that have been rent from their proper context cannot be considered studying Islam.

 

[Rezonator]

What do you mean by "this type of crap"?

Kuffar putting on false airs...

I'm sorry, Mas'sah. Didn't mean to go being an uppity kuffar on you and forget my place.

Do you disagree with this quote from the article:

"All the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims." —Muhammad, 630 A.D. at the occupation of Mecca

...You'll have to provide a more thorough citation before I can discuss that quote.

Darn, Kalam: you ought to get that Google thing calibrated. But let me be a good kuffar and go step-n-fetch it for you. That quote can be found in "The Conquest of Mekkah" chapter of Subhani's book, complete with comprehensive cites and references, and also can be found at the the Islamic Ma'aref Foundation Institute site, and at the AhluBayt World Assembly site.

So here's the question again: do you disagree with this statement:

"All the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims." —Muhammad, 630 A.D. at the occupation of Mecca

It's a simple yes or no answer, Kalam. Either you agree with it, or you don't. Come on: I know you can do it.

I'm suspect of any information that comes from a Shi'ite "scholar."

Heh. Well, now it seems that you disagree with this very similar statement:

"The Believers are but a single brotherhood." —Quran 49:10

Do you disagree with that statement? Yes, or no?

 

[Rezonator]

Reading quote-mined portions of the Qur'an that have been rent from their proper context cannot be considered studying Islam.

Then I am so glad I found you! Please give me the mitigating "context" that changes the meaning of these quotes:

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him." —Quran 3:85

"I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.'" —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 4:52:196 Narrated Abu Huraira

"He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause." —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 1125 Narrated Abu Musa

"I asked the Prophet [Muhammad], 'What is the best deed?' He replied, 'To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause.'" —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 3:46:694 Narrated Abu Dhar

"And fight them till there is no more affliction (i.e. no more worshiping of others along with Allah)". —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 6:60:40 Narrated Nafi'

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers." —Quran 3.151

"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." —Quran 8:12

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know." —Quran 8:60

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." —Quran 5:51

"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)" —Quran 9:5​

Thanks in advance!

 

[Kalam]

I'm sorry, Mas'sah. Didn't mean to go being an uppity kuffar on you and forget my place.

Don't worry; you'll learn your place quickly if you're going to insist on participating in these kinds of discussions. The singular form of kuffar is kafir. I'm surprised that an Islamic scholar of your eminence has failed to familiarize himself with the religion's most basic vocabulary!

Darn, Kalam: you ought to get that Google thing calibrated. But let me be a good kuffar and go step-n-fetch it for you.

Sorry, but I'm not going to do your work for you. You're not going to last long at USMB if you whine this much every time you're asked to corroborate your claims with specific evidence.

That quote can be found in "The Conquest of Mekkah" chapter of Subhani's book, complete with comprehensive cites and references, and also can be found at the the Islamic Ma'aref Foundation Institute site, and at the AhluBayt World Assembly site.

You were so close to actually providing a citation! All you had to do was follow the hyperlink to the footnote and copy the information there. Since I'm in a generous mood tonight, I'll do it for you:

For reproducing these extracts our sources are: Rawzah-i Kafi, p. 246; Seerah-i Ibn Hisham, vol. II, p. 412; Mughazi-i Waqidi, vol. II, p. 836; Biharul Anwar, vol. XXI, p. 5; Sharh-i Ibn Abil Hadid, vol. XVII, p. 281. ​

Rawdat al-Kafi is part of Kulayni's Kitab al-Kafi, a hadith collection that is part of the Twelver Shi'ite canon.

I'm assuming that "Seerah-i Ibn Hisham" refers to Ibn Ishaq's Sirah Rasul Allah, which was reproduced and preserved by Ibn Hisham. If this is the case, I currently have the book in my possession. It's in one volume and does not contain anything similar to that quote on the 412th page.

"Mughazi-i Waqidi" refers to the Kitab al-Tarikh wa'l-Maghazi by Al-Qaqidi, whose work was described by Imam Shafi'i (RA) as "nothing but heaps of lies."

"Sharh-i Ibn Abil Hadid" is Ibn Abi al-Hadid's commentary on Najd al-Balagha, another Shi'ite hadith collection.

So here's the question again: do you disagree with this statement:

"All the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims." —Muhammad, 630 A.D. at the occupation of Mecca

In principle, no. I'd be interested in seeing the specific context, however. Firmness against non-belief is a tenet of Islam praised in the Qur'an; this doesn't justifiably translate into violence against unbelievers in general.

That response assumes that the statement you provided is correct, which doesn't seem terribly likely.

Heh. Well, now it seems that you disagree with this very similar statement:

"The Believers are but a single brotherhood." —Quran 49:10

Do you disagree with that statement? Yes, or no?

"Very similar," you say. I suppose you failed to notice that the part about "constitut[ing] one hand as against the non-Muslims" cannot be found in that ayah.

The believers are brethren so make peace between your brethren, and keep your duty to Allah that mercy may be had on you. - 49:10​

 

[Rezonator]

The singular form of kuffar is kafir. I'm surprised that an Islamic scholar of your eminence has failed to familiarize himself with the religion's most basic vocabulary!

I'm fully conversant with all the Islamic-supremacy lingo demeaning all others, Kalam—and thanks for affirming it. When you get your Google calibrated, be sure to have your Snark-o-Meter checked, too, will ya?

So here's the question again: do you disagree with this statement:

"All the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims." —Muhammad, 630 A.D. at the occupation of Mecca

In principle, no. [SNIP OBLIGATORY WEASELING]

Right.

 

[fyrenza]

I agree. You, the OP, Mr. Kumar, and the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims fall into this category. Reading quote-mined portions of the Qur'an that have been rent from their proper context cannot be considered studying Islam.

It isn't just what I've read, Kalam ~

I lived in Morocco for just over 3 years, and although not a Muslim, I do understand a bit about their culture.

In a lot of ways, I admire their devoutness;

in a lot of other ways, I see Islam as George Orwell's nightmare of our future.

Any religion, which calls as it's "prophet" a man who NEVER prophecies one single thing,

who mugged, murdered and molested even children,

whose only goal in life was power was on earth?

I call a false religion, regardless of it's adherent's blind faith.

But please DO elucidate us with the greatness of your so-called prophet, who bears a remarkable psychological resemblance to Charles Manson.

 

[Kalam]

Then I am so glad I found you! Please give me the mitigating "context" that changes the meaning of these quotes:

This is something that you could easily do yourself, but I will if you want me to. Since your OP quoted Abul 'Ala Maududi and Sayyid Qutb, I'll use their exegeses when necessary to shed light on the meaning of some of the Qur'anic ayat.

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him." —Quran 3:85

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers. How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing, and they had borne witness that the Messenger was true, and clear arguments had come to them? And Allah guides not the unjust people. - 3:85-86​

This refers to those who conceded that Muhammad's (SAWS) revelations were divine in origin, but refused to submit to Allah (SWT). The only punishment for this that is mentioned is punishment in the hereafter. Maududi claims that this ayah was most likely revealed concerning a group of Jewish scholars who recognized the authenticity of Muhammad's (SAWS) message but refused to follow him as a prophet, most likely due to his largely non-Hebrew ancestry. Qutb confirms that the punishment for this transgression is limited to the hereafter, saying, "Those who do not accept Islam in the form God wants it to take after having learned its true nature will definitely be the losers in the hereafter."

"I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.'" —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 4:52:196 Narrated Abu Huraira

This is conditional. Ibn Taymiyyah explains:

"It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant." - Majmu' al-Fatawa, 19/20​

"He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause." —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 1125 Narrated Abu Musa

"I asked the Prophet [Muhammad], 'What is the best deed?' He replied, 'To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause.'" —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 3:46:694 Narrated Abu Dhar

Jihad in the cause of God, which includes but is not limited to physical warfare, is something required of all Muslims. This does not include "slaughtering unbelievers"; targeting non-combatants, looting, and pillaging are specifically prohibited.

"And fight them till there is no more affliction (i.e. no more worshiping of others along with Allah)". —Hadith Sahih Bukhari 6:60:40 Narrated Nafi'

That's a very tiny portion of a large ahadith. Here's a bit more:

...The man said, "O Abu 'Abd ur-Rahman! Won't you listen to why Allah has mentioned in His Book: 'If two groups of believers fight each other, then make peace between them, but if one of then transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then you all fight against the one that transgresses.' (49:9) And: 'And fight them until there is no more affliction.'" Ibn 'Umar said, "We did it, during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle when Islam had only a few followers. A man would be put to trial because of his religion; he would either be killed or tortured. But when the Muslims increased, there were no more afflictions or oppressions." - Sahih Bukhari, Tafseer, no. 40​

I trust that addresses your concerns.

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers." —Quran 3.151

We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the Fire. And evil is the abode of the wrongdoers. - 3:151​

This portion of Al-i-Imran deals specifically with the ongoing conflict between the Muslims and the Quraysh, especially the Battle of Uhud.

"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." —Quran 8:12

This deals with the same conflict, specifically the Battle of Badr.

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know." —Quran 8:60

If you continue reading...

And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. - 8:61​

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." —Quran 5:51

The word used is awliya, meaning "patrons" rather than "friends." Muslims are permitted to befriend them.

It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those of them whom you hold as enemies. And Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Allah forbids you not respecting those who fight you not for religion, nor drive you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly. Surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah forbids you only respecting those who fight you for religion, and drive you forth from your homes and help (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends of them; and whoever makes friends of them, these are the wrongdoers. - 60:7-9​

"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)" —Quran 9:5[/INDENT]

In context:

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you; so fulfil their agreement to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty. So when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters, wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And if anyone of the idolaters seek thy protection, protect him till he hears the word of Allah, then convey him to his place of safety. This is because they are a people who know not. - 9:4-6​

This applies to the mushrikeen who take up arms against Islam or attempt to suppress it. Maududi clarifies the last portion:

That is, "if during a fight, an enemy makes a request that he should be given an opportunity to understand Islam, the Muslims should give him a surety of protection and allow him to visit them. They should then present Islam before him in order to make him understand it. If, after this, he does not embrace Islam, they should convey him safely to his place". Such a person who comes to Dar-ul-Islam under the above mentioned protection is called musta'min in the Islamic Code.​

 

[Kalam]

The singular form of kuffar is kafir. I'm surprised that an Islamic scholar of your eminence has failed to familiarize himself with the religion's most basic vocabulary!

I'm fully conversant with all the Islamic-supremacy lingo demeaning all others, Kalam—and thanks for affirming it. When you get your Google calibrated, be sure to have your Snark-o-Meter checked, too, will ya?

So here's the question again: do you disagree with this statement:

"All the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims." —Muhammad, 630 A.D. at the occupation of Mecca

In principle, no. [SNIP OBLIGATORY WEASELING]

Right.

Sterling response you've come up with there.

 

[fyrenza]

This applies to the mushrikeen who take up arms against Islam or attempt to suppress it. Maududi clarifies the last portion:

That is, "if during a fight, an enemy makes a request that he should be given an opportunity to understand Islam, the Muslims should give him a surety of protection and allow him to visit them. They should then present Islam before him in order to make him understand it. If, after this, he does not embrace Islam, they should convey him safely to his place". Such a person who comes to Dar-ul-Islam under the above mentioned protection is called musta'min in the Islamic Code.​

Where would That Place be, Kalam?

If the person's community has been conquered by Islam,

where would you "deliver him" TO?

Cite me some instances from HISTORY of the Nation of Islam delivering anyone SAFELY to anywhere.

Islam does not do that. Islam FORCES people to submit to their tyranny and false religion,

or die.

THOSE are the choices, and I've got news for you:

That isn't a "choice," to most.

 

[Conspiracist]

Sorry Kalam... I have a hard time buying Islam as peaceful. If we look around the world, the percentage of conflicts with Islam in the middle is VERY high. If the goal is for peace, why so many wars?

 

[Father Time]

I think its time to start building churches in muslim countries. If that doesn't happen, then muslims have no right to cry foul when we stop them from building near ground zero.

So any Muslim in the US could get Saudi Arabia to lift their ban on churches if they wanted to?

That's the only way that would make any sense. Although either way our constitution is not dependent on the rights other countries give their citizens nor should it be.

Tolerance works both ways, not always in their favor.

Two wrongs don't make a right and saying 'well people who have beliefs similar to you are being jackasses so that gives us a right to deny you rights we give everyone else' is
unfair and stupid.

 

[fyrenza]

Sorry Kalam... I have a hard time buying Islam as peaceful. If we look around the world, the percentage of conflicts with Islam in the middle is VERY high. If the goal is for peace, why so many wars?

Geez, Conspiracist!

Did we not learn ANYTHING from the Christian Crusades?

Sometimes, you gotta KILL EVERYONE in order to Teach Them Their Lesson!

Cripes, mang...

 

[Father Time]

There are denominations in Islam just like in Christianity so to say that is akin to saying that there's no difference between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sorry Kalam... I have a hard time buying Islam as peaceful. If we look around the world, the percentage of conflicts with Islam in the middle is VERY high. If the goal is for peace, why so many wars?

If Islam is so bad why is it the second largest religion on earth?

 

[Conspiracist]

Sorry Kalam... I have a hard time buying Islam as peaceful. If we look around the world, the percentage of conflicts with Islam in the middle is VERY high. If the goal is for peace, why so many wars?

If Islam is so bad why is it the second largest religion on earth?

Because so many are forced into it as a form of survival. Look at what is happening in Africa. They kill Christians every night for sport, they commandeer food and aid for people that are a few meals away from dying. It is a ruthless religion as of now. It could be looked upon as the Christian religion once was. Who knows? Islam needs brought to heel.

 

[Father Time]

Sorry Kalam... I have a hard time buying Islam as peaceful. If we look around the world, the percentage of conflicts with Islam in the middle is VERY high. If the goal is for peace, why so many wars?

If Islam is so bad why is it the second largest religion on earth?

Ad populum fallacy

Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's not evil.

 

[Rezonator]

If Islam is so bad why is it the second largest religion on earth?

The same reason that the people of Kashmir are being told right now to either convert to Islam or get the hell out of the land their ancestors occupied peacefully for thousands of years. And that's what at the other end of the "bridges" that are being built here by Muslims. That's the only thing that's ever at the end of a Muslim-built "bridge" to another culture: convert, or be subjected to jizya and suppression, or die. Take your pick.

 

[Kalam]

Sorry Kalam... I have a hard time buying Islam as peaceful. If we look around the world, the percentage of conflicts with Islam in the middle is VERY high. If the goal is for peace, why so many wars?

I never claimed that it was peaceful. Before peace can be established, the forces of oppression must be confronted and destroyed per the Qur'an.

 

[fyrenza]

I never claimed that it was peaceful. Before peace can be established, the forces of oppression must be confronted and destroyed per the Qur'an.

So you admit that the Nation of Islam is not a peaceful entity,

and has no intention of achieving their goals through peaceful means?

Islam IS the oppressor, dude!

Just LOOK at how they treat others.

You'll be hard-pressed to show how ANYONE on these boards would/could/should believe that ANY true God does not represent Love, and the BEST of what we could ever feel,

but good luck with that hate thang.