The Most Mysterious Right

[M14 Shooter]

You and I are arguing different things.

Yes.
I am arguing that people will always need to be able to exercise the right to self-defense, and therefore guns and government will always be necessary.

You are arguing that because you dont think you need a gun, guns arent necessary.

You say: "Do you REALLY believe that there will never be a situation where you -do- need a gun to protect yourself? Ever? Really?"
To which I say of course not.

Then you cannot say you do not need a gun.
This pretty much destroyes your argument.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Also, a lot of gun lovers in the US think the easiest way to resolve a confronation, whether it be a robbery, assault or theft, is to shoot somebody. How civilised.

There are 80,000,000 gun owners and 300,000,000 guns in the US.
Compared to these numbers, one must question your use of the term "a lot".

 

[Dr Grump]

Yes.
I am arguing that people will always need to be able to exercise the right to self-defense, and therefore guns and government will always be necessary.

You are arguing that because you dont think you need a gun, guns arent necessary.

And I disagree with that premise. I do not think you need a gun for self defense..

Then you cannot say you do not need a gun.
This pretty much destroyes your argument.

If you are going to cherry pick my quotes it is pointless debating with you. I had a caveat attached to the above answer and you did not include that when you cherry picked. It reinforced my argument, it did not destroy it.
Dismissed

 

[M14 Shooter]

And I disagree with that premise. I do not think you need a gun for self defense.

You, yourself, agree that there might be a time when you would.
So, do you or dont you?

 

[Dr Grump]

You, yourself, agree that there might be a time when you would.
So, do you or dont you?

After everything is weighed up? No...

 

[M14 Shooter]

After everything is weighed up? No...

I see. There may be a time where you do really need one, but you don't really need one.

Guns are as necessary as the right to self defense, as they are THE most effective means of exercising that right. You may THINK you dont need one, but, deep down, you KNOW better - you just wont admit it.

 

[Dr Grump]

I see. There may be a time where you do really need one, but you don't really need one.

Guns are as necessary as the right to self defense, as they are THE most effective means of exercising that right. You may THINK you dont need one, but, deep down, you KNOW better - you just wont admit it.

There are times when I might choke to death when eating. Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop eating.

Oh, I agree a gun is a great way for self defense, but that doesn't mean I need or want one. On the contrary, the VAST majority of NZers don't have one or need one. And guess what, Australians, French, Canadians, Brits, Irish etc all believe the same...go figure...

 

[M14 Shooter]

Oh, I agree a gun is a great way for self defense, but that doesn't mean I need or want one.

That you think you dont "need" one is a matter oif personal perception, not a matter of fact. You, yourself, admit there are times when you WOULD need one; your position that 'you dont need one here' isnt based on that actual need, but on your opinion that 'this won't happen to me'.

On the contrary, the VAST majority of NZers don't have one or need one. And guess what, Australians, French, Canadians, Brits, Irish etc all believe the same...go figure...

This is an appeal to popularity, a logical fallacy.
If Australians, French, Canadians, Brits, Irish etc all believe that 2+2=6, that doesnt make 2+2=6.

 

[Dr Grump]

That you think you dont "need" one is a matter oif personal perception, not a matter of fact.

No it is not. It is a matter of fact. I do not need one. I know that it shoots your argument to shit, but that's your problem, not mine.

You, yourself, admit there are times when you WOULD need one; your position that 'you dont need one here' isnt based on that actual need, but on your opinion that 'this won't happen to me'.

It is based on the fact that I don't need one. Nothing more, nothing less. See my food, car and swimming analogies for clarification. Anything that threatens you gun lovers perception of the world gets on your goat -I know. I've debated this issue with a lot of people over the past 6 years - I've even had some say it should be illegal NOT to have a gun. The interesting thing I find, is that over the years I have decided that we are just different. Different societies, different needs and wants. The true blue gun lover (like yourself) has never - I repeat NEVER - conceded a point, which makes you guys a lot more dangerous to a free society than any gun ever will. A closed mind is a sad thing to have.

This is an appeal to popularity, a logical fallacy.
If Australians, French, Canadians, Brits, Irish etc all believe that 2+2=6, that doesnt make 2+2=6.

That's right. They're all wrong, and you're right (rolls eyes). Can you show me where all these govts have come up with that equation?

 

[M14 Shooter]

No it is not. It is a matter of fact. I do not need one. I know that it shoots your argument to shit, but that's your problem, not mine.

Keep telling yourself that.
And whike your at it, ponder what you will do when you find yourself in one of those situations where you really -do- need a gun.

A closed mind is a sad thing to have.

Says the guy that keeps telling himself he doesnt need a gun, even though there are situations, he admits, where a gun is necessary.

That's right. They're all wrong, and you're right (rolls eyes)

You apparently dont understand the 'appeal to popularity' fallacy.
Here's a better way of putting it:
A number of people having the same perception does not make that perception a fact.

 

[Dr Grump]

Keep telling yourself that.
And whike your at it, ponder what you will do when you find yourself in one of those situations where you really -do- need a gun.

I never have, nor has anybody I know. If I was to try and anticipate every situation I would ever be in, I'd be a nutcase...

Says the guy that keeps telling himself he doesnt need a gun, even though there are situations, he admits, where a gun is necessary.

What is closed minded about it? I am willing to admit there might be a time when somebody wants a gun. Doesn't mean I need one. Are you willing to admit there might be a time when you won't need a gun. Using your own logic, the number of times you won't need a gun far outweigh the times you'll need a gun, therefore, upon weight of possibilties, you don't need a gun.

You apparently dont understand the 'appeal to popularity' fallacy.
Here's a better way of putting it:
A number of people having the same perception does not make that perception a fact.

But it could make that perception fact, too. That is what a democracy is about, the will of the people. Or do you believe in the Tyranny of the Minority...

 

[midcan5]

FACT: More than 3,500 students were expelled in 1998-99 for bringing guns to school. Of these, 43% were in elementary or junior high school. This means that, in a 40-week school year, an average of 88 children per week nationwide are expelled for bringing a gun in school. And these figures include only the children who get caught.

- U.S. Department of Education. Report on State Implementation of the Gun-Free Schools Act: School Year 1998-99. October 2000, p.2

FACT: During 1999, 52% of all murder victims younger than age 18 were killed by guns, and 82% of murder victims aged 13 to 19 years old were killed by guns. In 1986, guns were used in 38% of murders in the same age groups.

- FBI Uniform Crime Reports for 1999, table 2.11.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

FACT: More than 3,500 students were expelled in 1998-99 for bringing guns to school. Of these, 43% were in elementary or junior high school. This means that, in a 40-week school year, an average of 88 children per week nationwide are expelled for bringing a gun in school. And these figures include only the children who get caught.

- U.S. Department of Education. Report on State Implementation of the Gun-Free Schools Act: School Year 1998-99. October 2000, p.2

FACT: During 1999, 52% of all murder victims younger than age 18 were killed by guns, and 82% of murder victims aged 13 to 19 years old were killed by guns. In 1986, guns were used in 38% of murders in the same age groups.

- FBI Uniform Crime Reports for 1999, table 2.11.

And yet statistically murder by firearm is not even a blip compared to base population and over all murder by firearm is something like 1/3 or so of all murders.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I never have, nor has anybody I know.

But, again, you admit that there are times when one is necessary.

What is closed minded about it? I am willing to admit there might be a time when somebody wants a gun. Doesn't mean I need one.

No... you admitted that there -are- times when people -need- one.
You then say that, even though there are times that people need one, YOU dont need one.

Are you willing to admit there might be a time when you won't need a gun.

I havent ever needed a gun. That doesnt in any way shape or form mean that I will never need one. Similarly, the fact that you havent ever needed one doesnt in any way mean you wont ever need one.

But it could make that perception fact, too

No. Perceptions do not create facts.
Unless, of course, you'd agree that because 4+ billion people believe that God exists, then God exists.

 

[M14 Shooter]

FACT: More than 3,500 students were expelled in 1998-99 for bringing guns to school. Of these, 43% were in elementary or junior high school. This means that, in a 40-week school year, an average of 88 children per week nationwide are expelled for bringing a gun in school. And these figures include only the children who get caught.

And your point is...?

FACT: During 1999, 52% of all murder victims younger than age 18 were killed by guns, and 82% of murder victims aged 13 to 19 years old were killed by guns. In 1986, guns were used in 38% of murders in the same age groups.

And your point is...?

Of the 300,000,000 guns in the US, what % are used to kill someone?