The love of God and the need for an atonement

[onefour1]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will give you my perspective on what I believe to be the greatest act of love ever. I served a mission for the church and after returning I attended a university class on the philosophy of religion. The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being. I agreed with this premise. He then posed the question, "If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?" At first I didn't know how to answer this. So naturally, being a religious person, I turned to prayer and study of the scriptures. Several months went by and I still didn't have an answer. The class ended but the problem still plagued me. After about 5 months I got my answer. It was an answer to my Instructor's question and also an answer to the philosophical issue of the "Problem of Evil". The "Problem of Evil" asks, "If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he allow evil in the world?"

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist. Just as the spirit enters the body, the intelligence enters the spirit. But that part that is known as intelligence has always existed. It is clear in scripture that our spirits are the children of God and his offspring. Jesus was the first begotten spirit unto the Father. We are his spirit brethren. But the intelligence that is housed in the spirit of man has always existed and is eternal by nature.

Thus to answer my instructor as the why God didn't create us to be perfect, I now would say that he couldn't. You cannot create that which has always existed. Therefore, you cannot create it to be perfect. God has taken these eternal intelligences and made some of them his very own spirit children. He clothes them with a spirit body and then he clothes them with a physical body. Because they are eternal by nature, God could not make them perfect. They are what they are. But God being much more advanced than these spirits, devised a plan for their progression to become like himself. Since God is a being of free will and chooses of his own volition to do good and what is right, it was essential that these spirits also have free will and learn to choose good in and of themselves in order to develop into a truly good being. Free will is the only way to allow these spirits to become like their Father who is a being of free will himself. So the plan of progression for these spirits was to teach them true and good principles and let them govern themselves. So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil.

Under this plan, God knew that mankind would fall short of being obedient to good principles. But they were Gods children and he loved them so dearly. He devised as part of his plan a means whereby if mankind would do evil and thus not be justified in returning to God's kingdom, he could repent. And if he repented he could be forgiven of his previous trespasses against the laws of God's kingdom. You see, once a person breaks the laws of the kingdom of heaven, he is not worthy and it would not be just to allow him entrance into the kingdom of heaven. God knew that all of us would fall short because we were not perfect beings by nature. God couldn't create us to be perfect and so he needed another way for his children to progress. This would mean that they learn by going to the school of hard knocks, (ie this earth). But he needed a way to allow us to learn from our mistakes. So he came up with the plan of mercy.

Since it is unjust for mankind who has broken the law of heaven to return to a kingdom that lives strictly by that law, no man or woman is justified by the law of heaven to return unto God. How does God get around his own law? He must be a just God eternally. The genius of God is in his great plan of mercy. This is his plan: He would send a being to earth who does NO sin. The Father allows this being who is his first born spirit in heaven to come to this earth and suffer to the degree of punishment for all the sins that mankind would ever commit. This person would have to be super human to be able to live through such torment and anguish. Thus he was born part God and part human. The pain that person would suffer would cause him to bleed at every pore of his body. That person is Jesus of Nazareth. He was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He lived a sinless life and when the time came for him to suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of all that suffering was on his mind:

Mark 14:33-36
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

The plan of the Father was a plan of love. You see God knew that by having a person who was without sin suffer all the pain and suffering of the world, it would be an unjust act. Jesus, as a perfect lamb without blemish, having no sin, would he deserve any of the pain and suffering that he bore? NO! He was a perfect sinless being. He did not deserve any amount of pain and suffering. Yet he suffered to the extent of the pain and suffering of all mankind. Latter-day revelation reveals:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Because of this great and eternal injustice that was brought upon the Son of Man, God the Father would of necessity, as a just God, need to recompense Jesus for his unjust pain, suffering and death. No ordinary man could have accomplished what Jesus did because all mankind were not without sin and were not an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Jesus being part God was able to withstand the sufferings in the garden and being without sin was able to bring about an injustice that needed to be recompensed to the extent of his suffering! Being part mortal, he was able to lay down his life if he so chose to do so. God the Father could not have fulfilled the atonement since he was already a resurrected being and could not lay down his life. Only his first born son in the spirit and only begotten son in the flesh who did not sin was able to accomplish this atoning sacrifice.

Now that Jesus was in a position to be recompensed, his recompense was to be able to forgive the rest of mankind for their sins if they would simply repent of them. Repentance was necessary for mankind to again live the law of heaven once he is forgiven and given entrance to the kingdom. God will not have those who will not abide a celestial law to gain entrance into his kingdom. So the atonement is based on repentance. Jesus has said:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

As a father I cannot imagine seeing my son suffer to such a degree. And i certainly cannot fathom the pain and anguish that Jesus suffered for us. Why did these two beings make such a sacrifice? Because they really do love us! It was a totally unselfish act of pure love.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It would be unjust for God not to recompense Jesus for the injustice he bore. It was just that Jesus received a recompense to the extent of his sufferings. Allowing repentant sinners who have forsaken their sins into heaven is the right that Jesus has as a recompense for his unjust sufferings. The atonement allows mankind to gain entrance through Jesus' Atonement based on the principle of repentance. There is no other way for us to gain entrance only in and through the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

May our thoughts be turned to our Savior during this season of celebration of his coming into the world!

 

[ScienceRocks]

You can worship a plastic dick as far as I am concern as long as it doesn't effect me or my family. Deal?

 

[Likkmee]

Lemme 'splain something here. " God" is a being in a group of the same. It is written " Ye shall worship no Gods before me" . That's Yahwey, our creator(genetic manipulator) saying HE is the one to listen to and follow. " We made man in our own image". That is plurality. A buncha entities were involved in this....DNA modification(basically). "Satan" was part of this crowd and he got pissed off with Yahwey's work and decided to corrupt the project.Hence the forbidden fruit story.
As you may know he gets a whippin and tossed aside for 1000 years(nothing in their particular calendar). He then gets released again "for a little while" ???? Why ?
There is a political hierarchy within this group and rules is rules.
It should be perfectly obvious to anyone other than the toothless wonders in the babble belt.

 

[shimon]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will give you my perspective on what I believe to be the greatest act of love ever. I served a mission for the church and after returning I attended a university class on the philosophy of religion. The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being. I agreed with this premise. He then posed the question, "If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?" At first I didn't know how to answer this. So naturally, being a religious person, I turned to prayer and study of the scriptures. Several months went by and I still didn't have an answer. The class ended but the problem still plagued me. After about 5 months I got my answer. It was an answer to my Instructor's question and also an answer to the philosophical issue of the "Problem of Evil". The "Problem of Evil" asks, "If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he allow evil in the world?"

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist. Just as the spirit enters the body, the intelligence enters the spirit. But that part that is known as intelligence has always existed. It is clear in scripture that our spirits are the children of God and his offspring. Jesus was the first begotten spirit unto the Father. We are his spirit brethren. But the intelligence that is housed in the spirit of man has always existed and is eternal by nature.

Thus to answer my instructor as the why God didn't create us to be perfect, I now would say that he couldn't. You cannot create that which has always existed. Therefore, you cannot create it to be perfect. God has taken these eternal intelligences and made some of them his very own spirit children. He clothes them with a spirit body and then he clothes them with a physical body. Because they are eternal by nature, God could not make them perfect. They are what they are. But God being much more advanced than these spirits, devised a plan for their progression to become like himself. Since God is a being of free will and chooses of his own volition to do good and what is right, it was essential that these spirits also have free will and learn to choose good in and of themselves in order to develop into a truly good being. Free will is the only way to allow these spirits to become like their Father who is a being of free will himself. So the plan of progression for these spirits was to teach them true and good principles and let them govern themselves. So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil.

Under this plan, God knew that mankind would fall short of being obedient to good principles. But they were Gods children and he loved them so dearly. He devised as part of his plan a means whereby if mankind would do evil and thus not be justified in returning to God's kingdom, he could repent. And if he repented he could be forgiven of his previous trespasses against the laws of God's kingdom. You see, once a person breaks the laws of the kingdom of heaven, he is not worthy and it would not be just to allow him entrance into the kingdom of heaven. God knew that all of us would fall short because we were not perfect beings by nature. God couldn't create us to be perfect and so he needed another way for his children to progress. This would mean that they learn by going to the school of hard knocks, (ie this earth). But he needed a way to allow us to learn from our mistakes. So he came up with the plan of mercy.

Since it is unjust for mankind who has broken the law of heaven to return to a kingdom that lives strictly by that law, no man or woman is justified by the law of heaven to return unto God. How does God get around his own law? He must be a just God eternally. The genius of God is in his great plan of mercy. This is his plan: He would send a being to earth who does NO sin. The Father allows this being who is his first born spirit in heaven to come to this earth and suffer to the degree of punishment for all the sins that mankind would ever commit. This person would have to be super human to be able to live through such torment and anguish. Thus he was born part God and part human. The pain that person would suffer would cause him to bleed at every pore of his body. That person is Jesus of Nazareth. He was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He lived a sinless life and when the time came for him to suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of all that suffering was on his mind:

Mark 14:33-36
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

The plan of the Father was a plan of love. You see God knew that by having a person who was without sin suffer all the pain and suffering of the world, it would be an unjust act. Jesus, as a perfect lamb without blemish, having no sin, would he deserve any of the pain and suffering that he bore? NO! He was a perfect sinless being. He did not deserve any amount of pain and suffering. Yet he suffered to the extent of the pain and suffering of all mankind. Latter-day revelation reveals:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Because of this great and eternal injustice that was brought upon the Son of Man, God the Father would of necessity, as a just God, need to recompense Jesus for his unjust pain, suffering and death. No ordinary man could have accomplished what Jesus did because all mankind were not without sin and were not an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Jesus being part God was able to withstand the sufferings in the garden and being without sin was able to bring about an injustice that needed to be recompensed to the extent of his suffering! Being part mortal, he was able to lay down his life if he so chose to do so. God the Father could not have fulfilled the atonement since he was already a resurrected being and could not lay down his life. Only his first born son in the spirit and only begotten son in the flesh who did not sin was able to accomplish this atoning sacrifice.

Now that Jesus was in a position to be recompensed, his recompense was to be able to forgive the rest of mankind for their sins if they would simply repent of them. Repentance was necessary for mankind to again live the law of heaven once he is forgiven and given entrance to the kingdom. God will not have those who will not abide a celestial law to gain entrance into his kingdom. So the atonement is based on repentance. Jesus has said:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

As a father I cannot imagine seeing my son suffer to such a degree. And i certainly cannot fathom the pain and anguish that Jesus suffered for us. Why did these two beings make such a sacrifice? Because they really do love us! It was a totally unselfish act of pure love.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It would be unjust for God not to recompense Jesus for the injustice he bore. It was just that Jesus received a recompense to the extent of his sufferings. Allowing repentant sinners who have forsaken their sins into heaven is the right that Jesus has as a recompense for his unjust sufferings. The atonement allows mankind to gain entrance through Jesus' Atonement based on the principle of repentance. There is no other way for us to gain entrance only in and through the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

May our thoughts be turned to our Savior during this season of celebration of his coming into the world!

Oops big Oops someone is telling a lie.. A really big doozy.... Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth,it shall die.The son SHALL NOT Bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him. 21 But If the wicked will turn from his sins that he has committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 ALL his TRANSGRESSIONS that he hath committed they shall not be mentioned unto him: In his righteousness that he has done he shall live...

 

[onefour1]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will give you my perspective on what I believe to be the greatest act of love ever. I served a mission for the church and after returning I attended a university class on the philosophy of religion. The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being. I agreed with this premise. He then posed the question, "If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?" At first I didn't know how to answer this. So naturally, being a religious person, I turned to prayer and study of the scriptures. Several months went by and I still didn't have an answer. The class ended but the problem still plagued me. After about 5 months I got my answer. It was an answer to my Instructor's question and also an answer to the philosophical issue of the "Problem of Evil". The "Problem of Evil" asks, "If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he allow evil in the world?"

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist. Just as the spirit enters the body, the intelligence enters the spirit. But that part that is known as intelligence has always existed. It is clear in scripture that our spirits are the children of God and his offspring. Jesus was the first begotten spirit unto the Father. We are his spirit brethren. But the intelligence that is housed in the spirit of man has always existed and is eternal by nature.

Thus to answer my instructor as the why God didn't create us to be perfect, I now would say that he couldn't. You cannot create that which has always existed. Therefore, you cannot create it to be perfect. God has taken these eternal intelligences and made some of them his very own spirit children. He clothes them with a spirit body and then he clothes them with a physical body. Because they are eternal by nature, God could not make them perfect. They are what they are. But God being much more advanced than these spirits, devised a plan for their progression to become like himself. Since God is a being of free will and chooses of his own volition to do good and what is right, it was essential that these spirits also have free will and learn to choose good in and of themselves in order to develop into a truly good being. Free will is the only way to allow these spirits to become like their Father who is a being of free will himself. So the plan of progression for these spirits was to teach them true and good principles and let them govern themselves. So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil.

Under this plan, God knew that mankind would fall short of being obedient to good principles. But they were Gods children and he loved them so dearly. He devised as part of his plan a means whereby if mankind would do evil and thus not be justified in returning to God's kingdom, he could repent. And if he repented he could be forgiven of his previous trespasses against the laws of God's kingdom. You see, once a person breaks the laws of the kingdom of heaven, he is not worthy and it would not be just to allow him entrance into the kingdom of heaven. God knew that all of us would fall short because we were not perfect beings by nature. God couldn't create us to be perfect and so he needed another way for his children to progress. This would mean that they learn by going to the school of hard knocks, (ie this earth). But he needed a way to allow us to learn from our mistakes. So he came up with the plan of mercy.

Since it is unjust for mankind who has broken the law of heaven to return to a kingdom that lives strictly by that law, no man or woman is justified by the law of heaven to return unto God. How does God get around his own law? He must be a just God eternally. The genius of God is in his great plan of mercy. This is his plan: He would send a being to earth who does NO sin. The Father allows this being who is his first born spirit in heaven to come to this earth and suffer to the degree of punishment for all the sins that mankind would ever commit. This person would have to be super human to be able to live through such torment and anguish. Thus he was born part God and part human. The pain that person would suffer would cause him to bleed at every pore of his body. That person is Jesus of Nazareth. He was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He lived a sinless life and when the time came for him to suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of all that suffering was on his mind:

Mark 14:33-36
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

The plan of the Father was a plan of love. You see God knew that by having a person who was without sin suffer all the pain and suffering of the world, it would be an unjust act. Jesus, as a perfect lamb without blemish, having no sin, would he deserve any of the pain and suffering that he bore? NO! He was a perfect sinless being. He did not deserve any amount of pain and suffering. Yet he suffered to the extent of the pain and suffering of all mankind. Latter-day revelation reveals:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Because of this great and eternal injustice that was brought upon the Son of Man, God the Father would of necessity, as a just God, need to recompense Jesus for his unjust pain, suffering and death. No ordinary man could have accomplished what Jesus did because all mankind were not without sin and were not an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Jesus being part God was able to withstand the sufferings in the garden and being without sin was able to bring about an injustice that needed to be recompensed to the extent of his suffering! Being part mortal, he was able to lay down his life if he so chose to do so. God the Father could not have fulfilled the atonement since he was already a resurrected being and could not lay down his life. Only his first born son in the spirit and only begotten son in the flesh who did not sin was able to accomplish this atoning sacrifice.

Now that Jesus was in a position to be recompensed, his recompense was to be able to forgive the rest of mankind for their sins if they would simply repent of them. Repentance was necessary for mankind to again live the law of heaven once he is forgiven and given entrance to the kingdom. God will not have those who will not abide a celestial law to gain entrance into his kingdom. So the atonement is based on repentance. Jesus has said:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

As a father I cannot imagine seeing my son suffer to such a degree. And i certainly cannot fathom the pain and anguish that Jesus suffered for us. Why did these two beings make such a sacrifice? Because they really do love us! It was a totally unselfish act of pure love.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It would be unjust for God not to recompense Jesus for the injustice he bore. It was just that Jesus received a recompense to the extent of his sufferings. Allowing repentant sinners who have forsaken their sins into heaven is the right that Jesus has as a recompense for his unjust sufferings. The atonement allows mankind to gain entrance through Jesus' Atonement based on the principle of repentance. There is no other way for us to gain entrance only in and through the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

May our thoughts be turned to our Savior during this season of celebration of his coming into the world!

Oops big Oops someone is telling a lie.. A really big doozy.... Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth,it shall die.The son SHALL NOT Bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him. 21 But If the wicked will turn from his sins that he has committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 ALL his TRANSGRESSIONS that he hath committed they shall not be mentioned unto him: In his righteousness that he has done he shall live...

The chapter in Ezekiel that you quote from is speaking of we mortals. The person who repents of his sins will not have his past transgressions mentioned but he who does not repent will have them mentioned. The mortal father will not be punished for his sons transgressions nor will the mortal son be punished for his fathers transgressions. The chapter goes on to say:

Ezekiel 18:24-32
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

The chapter is a great chapter on repentance and turning away from sin. Doesn't directly mention how those sins are remitted but it is implied that the repentant sinner will be forgiven and the unrepentant sinner will not.

 

[shimon]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I will give you my perspective on what I believe to be the greatest act of love ever. I served a mission for the church and after returning I attended a university class on the philosophy of religion. The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being. I agreed with this premise. He then posed the question, "If God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving, then why didn't he create us to be perfect?" At first I didn't know how to answer this. So naturally, being a religious person, I turned to prayer and study of the scriptures. Several months went by and I still didn't have an answer. The class ended but the problem still plagued me. After about 5 months I got my answer. It was an answer to my Instructor's question and also an answer to the philosophical issue of the "Problem of Evil". The "Problem of Evil" asks, "If God is all powerful and all loving, why does he allow evil in the world?"

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist. Just as the spirit enters the body, the intelligence enters the spirit. But that part that is known as intelligence has always existed. It is clear in scripture that our spirits are the children of God and his offspring. Jesus was the first begotten spirit unto the Father. We are his spirit brethren. But the intelligence that is housed in the spirit of man has always existed and is eternal by nature.

Thus to answer my instructor as the why God didn't create us to be perfect, I now would say that he couldn't. You cannot create that which has always existed. Therefore, you cannot create it to be perfect. God has taken these eternal intelligences and made some of them his very own spirit children. He clothes them with a spirit body and then he clothes them with a physical body. Because they are eternal by nature, God could not make them perfect. They are what they are. But God being much more advanced than these spirits, devised a plan for their progression to become like himself. Since God is a being of free will and chooses of his own volition to do good and what is right, it was essential that these spirits also have free will and learn to choose good in and of themselves in order to develop into a truly good being. Free will is the only way to allow these spirits to become like their Father who is a being of free will himself. So the plan of progression for these spirits was to teach them true and good principles and let them govern themselves. So once they proved their goodness in heaven as spirit children in the presence of God, it was time to really test these beings to see if they would be good outside the presence of God and without a sure knowledge of him. So he would send them to earth to see if they would be true and good beings or at least improve themselves by learning from their mistakes while on the earth by learning to follow after goodness rather than evil.

Under this plan, God knew that mankind would fall short of being obedient to good principles. But they were Gods children and he loved them so dearly. He devised as part of his plan a means whereby if mankind would do evil and thus not be justified in returning to God's kingdom, he could repent. And if he repented he could be forgiven of his previous trespasses against the laws of God's kingdom. You see, once a person breaks the laws of the kingdom of heaven, he is not worthy and it would not be just to allow him entrance into the kingdom of heaven. God knew that all of us would fall short because we were not perfect beings by nature. God couldn't create us to be perfect and so he needed another way for his children to progress. This would mean that they learn by going to the school of hard knocks, (ie this earth). But he needed a way to allow us to learn from our mistakes. So he came up with the plan of mercy.

Since it is unjust for mankind who has broken the law of heaven to return to a kingdom that lives strictly by that law, no man or woman is justified by the law of heaven to return unto God. How does God get around his own law? He must be a just God eternally. The genius of God is in his great plan of mercy. This is his plan: He would send a being to earth who does NO sin. The Father allows this being who is his first born spirit in heaven to come to this earth and suffer to the degree of punishment for all the sins that mankind would ever commit. This person would have to be super human to be able to live through such torment and anguish. Thus he was born part God and part human. The pain that person would suffer would cause him to bleed at every pore of his body. That person is Jesus of Nazareth. He was the only begotten of the Father in the flesh. He lived a sinless life and when the time came for him to suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of all that suffering was on his mind:

Mark 14:33-36
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

The plan of the Father was a plan of love. You see God knew that by having a person who was without sin suffer all the pain and suffering of the world, it would be an unjust act. Jesus, as a perfect lamb without blemish, having no sin, would he deserve any of the pain and suffering that he bore? NO! He was a perfect sinless being. He did not deserve any amount of pain and suffering. Yet he suffered to the extent of the pain and suffering of all mankind. Latter-day revelation reveals:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Because of this great and eternal injustice that was brought upon the Son of Man, God the Father would of necessity, as a just God, need to recompense Jesus for his unjust pain, suffering and death. No ordinary man could have accomplished what Jesus did because all mankind were not without sin and were not an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Jesus being part God was able to withstand the sufferings in the garden and being without sin was able to bring about an injustice that needed to be recompensed to the extent of his suffering! Being part mortal, he was able to lay down his life if he so chose to do so. God the Father could not have fulfilled the atonement since he was already a resurrected being and could not lay down his life. Only his first born son in the spirit and only begotten son in the flesh who did not sin was able to accomplish this atoning sacrifice.

Now that Jesus was in a position to be recompensed, his recompense was to be able to forgive the rest of mankind for their sins if they would simply repent of them. Repentance was necessary for mankind to again live the law of heaven once he is forgiven and given entrance to the kingdom. God will not have those who will not abide a celestial law to gain entrance into his kingdom. So the atonement is based on repentance. Jesus has said:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

As a father I cannot imagine seeing my son suffer to such a degree. And i certainly cannot fathom the pain and anguish that Jesus suffered for us. Why did these two beings make such a sacrifice? Because they really do love us! It was a totally unselfish act of pure love.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It would be unjust for God not to recompense Jesus for the injustice he bore. It was just that Jesus received a recompense to the extent of his sufferings. Allowing repentant sinners who have forsaken their sins into heaven is the right that Jesus has as a recompense for his unjust sufferings. The atonement allows mankind to gain entrance through Jesus' Atonement based on the principle of repentance. There is no other way for us to gain entrance only in and through the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

May our thoughts be turned to our Savior during this season of celebration of his coming into the world!

Oops big Oops someone is telling a lie.. A really big doozy.... Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth,it shall die.The son SHALL NOT Bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him. 21 But If the wicked will turn from his sins that he has committed and keep my statutes and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 ALL his TRANSGRESSIONS that he hath committed they shall not be mentioned unto him: In his righteousness that he has done he shall live...

The chapter in Ezekiel that you quote from is speaking of we mortals. The person who repents of his sins will not have his past transgressions mentioned but he who does not repent will have them mentioned. The mortal father will not be punished for his sons transgressions nor will the mortal son be punished for his fathers transgressions. The chapter goes on to say:

Ezekiel 18:24-32
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

The chapter is a great chapter on repentance and turning away from sin. Doesn't directly mention how those sins are remitted but it is implied that the repentant sinner will be forgiven and the unrepentant sinner will not.

No that is not all it is saying it is saying there is No Vicarious
Attonement each of us stands on our own no one takes our Sins.You just cannot get around that no matter how you twist and turn .. There are other places as well that show this but most people are lazy and want to believe that the snake oil they are swallowing will cure them...They don’t want to do any of the work they want a freebie and that is where the snake charmers in the New Testament come in and con the naive public.. The problem is people buy into nonsense because they get sold a false bill of goods... They buy something or buy into it without reading the fine print in the contract and they are too lazy or naive to check out whether the product you are selling( your Jesus) is just another cheap knockoff but hey you usually get what you pay for that’s for sure... Wink....

 

[onefour1]

It says nothing of the sort. It simply talks about if a man lives in sin all his life and dies he will die a spiritual death. If a man lives righteously all his life he will yet live and not be spiritually dead. However, If a man who sins and then turns from his evil ways, he can receive spiritual life. This is known as repentance. If a righteous man turns from doing good to evil he will die a spiritual death. A father won't be punished for his son's sins nor will the son be punished for his father's sins. Who decides who gains a spiritual death or spiritual life? God does. But the chapter doesn't directly cover how God is able to allow a repentant sinner to gain spiritual life. In the Old Testament the law of sacrifice and the passover were types of the great and last sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. A lamb without blemish (which was a representation of Jesus who was without sin) was taken and his blood was spilt and placed on the side posts and upper door post of the houses. This was a sign unto the Lord to passover that house and not give to it the plague. This is a type and foreshadowing of the coming of Jesus Christ who was the Lamb of God without sin (blemish) and by us receiving his blood atonement we can be forgiven of sin and be passed over when that judgement of spiritual death comes as spoken of in Ezekiel 18.

Exodus 12:3-14
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eatingshall make your count for the lamb.
5.Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord’s passover.
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

 

[ScienceRocks]

I am sure followers of the islamic state feel the same way about their god and that begin stupid is somehow making him happy.

It is just sad to see this in America.

 

[onefour1]

Christianity has been going on in America since its inception. It has been a great country. The Islamic State, if they could, would take away many, if not all the freedoms that were established by Christian founders of our nation. Sorry but its not the same. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all is not what the Islamic State has in mind but it is what Christianity seeks to preserve.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Religion the enemy of information. Why has it not all stand trial to the crimes it has produced through influence and encouraging the harming of other humans to uphold some ideology? It's time to shed these superstitions so we can progress and grow up as a species.

 

[onefour1]

Doctrine and Covenants 88:5-6
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

Alma 7:12
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.


Jesus has descended below all things in that he experienced all the pain, anguish, loneliness, hatred, sickness, guilt, shame, humiliation, depression, suffering, and death of all mankind. From this experience he has a perfect understanding of what anyone of us goes through in this life. From this experience his heart is filled with mercy and compassion towards his fellow man and woman. He knows how to succor his people. He can bring comfort to those who undergo such problems in their life. He understands perfectly what we each go through during our lives and can cure us all. He has been there and knows your plight. He is not just a savior in that he can bring us home to our Heavenly Father but he can make us whole again from all our infirmities.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:63
63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Matthew 11:28
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

3 Nephi 25:2
2 But unto you that fear my name, shall the Son of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves in the stall.

 

[onefour1]

Matthew 15:30-31
30 And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus’ feet; and he healed them:
31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

 

[alang1216]

The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being.

How does he know this?

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist.

There seems to be a contradiction here, if man is eternal how could we have been created by God?

 

[hobelim]

The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being.

How does he know this?

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist.

There seems to be a contradiction here, if man is eternal how could we have been created by God?

That also contradicts genesis where man was not created eternal but was banished from Eden before he reached out his hand and ate the fruit of the tree of life...

 

[onefour1]

The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being.

How does he know this?

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist.

There seems to be a contradiction here, if man is eternal how could we have been created by God?

The idea is that creation is not a process of creating out of nothing. If I were to create a ship, I would gather the materials that already exist and build the ship from those things that make up a ship. Creation of man is first, the taking of his eternal intelligence and combining it with with spirit matter through the process of procreation to get a spirit child of God. Second, you take the spirit of man that was previously created and combine it with matter such as the dust of the earth and then you have a living mortal soul. After that, those living procreate.

Abraham 5:7
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Moses 3:7,9
7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

These verses tell us that God did not create man from nothing but he put the spirit of man into his body that was formed from the dust of the earth.

 

[onefour1]

The instructor was a man of Indian descent and he started off by establishing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving being.

How does he know this?

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe that mankind are the literal offspring of God the Eternal Father in heaven. We believe that as spirit children of God, we pre-existed this mortal life and lived in God's presence as spirits before coming to this earth. As I was studying the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I came across the following passage:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Later I found another verse that corroborated the above verse:

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

What these verses are saying is that a part of man, known as intelligence, is eternal by nature. We have always existed and will always exist.

There seems to be a contradiction here, if man is eternal how could we have been created by God?

That also contradicts genesis where man was not created eternal but was banished from Eden before he reached out his hand and ate the fruit of the tree of life...

In the story of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden. They were allowed to eat from every tree except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were originally allowed to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life. They were warned that if they partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that this would bring death upon them. Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and because of this, the seeds of death entered into their bodies and they became mortal, having transgressed the command of God. For this reason they were cast out from the Garden of Eden and were no longer allowed to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life which would cause them to live forever

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:22-24
.22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

[onefour1]

The instructor in the course did not know that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. It is a philosophical assumption based on reason. He went into great detail explaining why a being, if he is going to be considered God, should be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. One would expect a being who is considered God to have all power, all knowledge, and be an all benevolent being. He would hold the attributes of perfection. If God is not all powerful, perhaps there is something that is more powerful than God. Could he be considered God if he is not all powerful? If there were something that God did not know, perhaps that something is what would bring about his demise. Could he be considered God if he did not know all things? Is God a tyrant? Is he a hateful God? Would not a God who is perfect love his own creations? Would he not be in agreement with his own works and love the works that he himself creates? The instructor assumes that to be a God you need to possess attributes of perfection. Anything less than this would be imperfect and not meet the standard what would be considered God. Thus he argues that God would of a necessity need to be all powerful, all knowing and an all loving being.

I agree that God is all knowing and knows everything. I also agree for God to be God, he would love the works of his hands and he would seek to save them and do what is best for them. However, when it comes to being all powerful, I think that this needs to be qualified. I don't think God is a being who can do anything imaginable. I don't think that God can create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it. I don't think God can create from nothing, especially that which is self-existent. I don't think God can be an all good being and an all evil being simultaneously. I think that eternal impossibilities exist that not even a God can do. So the qualification is that God is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible. No one else can do the impossible and God is capable of doing all that is possible. Thus he is all powerful but not a being who can do that which is eternally impossible.

 

[alang1216]

The instructor in the course did not know that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. It is a philosophical assumption based on reason. He went into great detail explaining why a being, if he is going to be considered God, should be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. One would expect a being who is considered God to have all power, all knowledge, and be an all benevolent being. He would hold the attributes of perfection. If God is not all powerful, perhaps there is something that is more powerful than God. Could he be considered God if he is not all powerful? If there were something that God did not know, perhaps that something is what would bring about his demise. Could he be considered God if he did not know all things? Is God a tyrant? Is he a hateful God? Would not a God who is perfect love his own creations? Would he not be in agreement with his own works and love the works that he himself creates? The instructor assumes that to be a God you need to possess attributes of perfection. Anything less than this would be imperfect and not meet the standard what would be considered God. Thus he argues that God would of a necessity need to be all powerful, all knowing and an all loving being.

I agree that God is all knowing and knows everything. I also agree for God to be God, he would love the works of his hands and he would seek to save them and do what is best for them. However, when it comes to being all powerful, I think that this needs to be qualified. I don't think God is a being who can do anything imaginable. I don't think that God can create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it. I don't think God can create from nothing, especially that which is self-existent. I don't think God can be an all good being and an all evil being simultaneously. I think that eternal impossibilities exist that not even a God can do. So the qualification is that God is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible. No one else can do the impossible and God is capable of doing all that is possible. Thus he is all powerful but not a being who can do that which is eternally impossible.

Sounds like you created God, not the other way around. If God were a petty, vindictive tyrant but powerful enough to create a universe and us, He might enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on his creations. Would the world we see be any different from what your imagined God has created?

 

[onefour1]

I don't believe God is a petty vindictive tyrant. If he were, He would not want us to have free will. Yet we do have free will. God wanted his children to be and to have the best that he could give them due to his love for his children. The best thing God could do is teach us to become more like himself. God himself being a free will being, made sure that his children had free will. You can't become like God unless you have free will to choose for yourself. God is a being of free will. Nobody tells God what to do. He does what he does of his own choosing. For us to become like God, it was essential that God give us free will to choose Good over evil. Only then can we learn to be like him and learn to choose, in and of ourselves, to be good beings.

God has sent us to this temporary world where we can learn to choose good over evil. However, when you give free will to imperfect beings, you are going have evil in the world. Some will use their free will to harm others or destroy them. Some however, will learn from their mistakes and learn to follow after goodness. Having free will is the only way for mankind to become more like their Father in Heaven. You cannot become a truly good person by being forced to do so. A truly good person is one who does good of his own volition. He does not need to be coerced to do good. Because of our eternal nature, we could not be created perfect and thus the only way for mankind to progress was to learn of their own free will to be good beings. This earth became a testing ground to see who will choose good over evil. Those who choose good will pass the test, while those who choose evil will not.

God knew that we would make mistakes since we were not perfect and we had been given free will. Mankind at some point in this world would choose evil and not be worthy of God's kingdom. God knew this way in advance. For this reason he provided a Savior before the foundation of the earth which would allow us the opportunity to repent of our sins and turn toward goodness and obtain mercy.

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

So to answer your question, No the world we see would not be any different from what God created. It is what God created and many of his children, through free will, have made it not such a desirable place. Yet there are those who do follow the goodness of God and do take advantage of the free gift of mercy provided by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thank God this mortal existence is only temporary. But God has promised that when his Only Begotten Son comes again, that he will rid the world of wickedness and allow righteousness to reign for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:2-7
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Vindictive tyrants are those who choose force over free will. They prefer slavery rather than freedom. It was Satan's plan to be a vindictive tyrant. For that very reason he rebelled against God in his presence and was cast out of heaven for it.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angelsfought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Through all of God's commandments he has shown us the way to have peace on earth if we would just follow his teachings. If we would love one another as he has taught, we would care for each other and there would be no poor among us. But the selfishness and greediness of man and his lack of love for his fellowman is what brings evil in the world. All this due to the free will and choice that God has given man. But there was no other way for man to become like God unless he was given his free will. Thankfully this world is only a temporary world to see what we would do with our free will. God wanted to give those who were willing to follow his will and choose goodness over evil the opportunity to be cleansed from all sin and return unto him in his kingdom. Those who choose to do so will be blessed. Those who choose of their own free will to rebel against God will not receive the blessing. But God does even allow us to repent and change while there is still time due to his mercy and love toward us. May we all learn to love one another as God has loved us that we might find peace and happiness in this world. Yes, we have the capacity to great good with our free will. If only we were willing to do so.

 

[alang1216]

I don't believe God is a petty vindictive tyrant. If he were, He would not want us to have free will. Yet we do have free will. God wanted his children to be and to have the best that he could give them due to his love for his children. The best thing God could do is teach us to become more like himself. God himself being a free will being, made sure that his children had free will. You can't become like God unless you have free will to choose for yourself. God is a being of free will. Nobody tells God what to do. He does what he does of his own choosing. For us to become like God, it was essential that God give us free will to choose Good over evil. Only then can we learn to be like him and learn to choose, in and of ourselves, to be good beings.

Do we really have free will? It is claimed that God knows the future. If that is true he knows before I do what actions I will take. God created me with the knowledge of everything I would do and say. How does that mesh with me having free will? Where does Hell come into it? Do I really have free will if I'm to be punished for exercising it?

God has sent us to this temporary world where we can learn to choose good over evil. However, when you give free will to imperfect beings, you are going have evil in the world. Some will use their free will to harm others or destroy them. Some however, will learn from their mistakes and learn to follow after goodness. Having free will is the only way for mankind to become more like their Father in Heaven. You cannot become a truly good person by being forced to do so. A truly good person is one who does good of his own volition. He does not need to be coerced to do good. Because of our eternal nature, we could not be created perfect and thus the only way for mankind to progress was to learn of their own free will to be good beings. This earth became a testing ground to see who will choose good over evil. Those who choose good will pass the test, while those who choose evil will not.

As I'm sure you know, there is an ancient debate in Christianity: election vs good works. One side says we do good because God has chosen us for heaven while the other says we are chosen based on our good works. If we're elected, per Augustine, free will plays no part. If good work is the key to heaven, how does a deathbed conversion count since there are no good works. John says the only thing we need to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus, no works required.

God knew that we would make mistakes since we were not perfect and we had been given free will. Mankind at some point in this world would choose evil and not be worthy of God's kingdom. God knew this way in advance. For this reason he provided a Savior before the foundation of the earth which would allow us the opportunity to repent of our sins and turn toward goodness and obtain mercy.

That Savior would have been useful to the people of Noah's time. Where was he when he was needed?

the selfishness and greediness of man and his lack of love for his fellowman is what brings evil in the world.

I thought we were made in God's image? How/why are we able to be selfish and greedy if they are not a part of God? It almost seems that God added a few extras when he made man.

But there was no other way for man to become like God unless he was given his free will. Thankfully this world is only a temporary world to see what we would do with our free will. God wanted to give those who were willing to follow his will and choose goodness over evil the opportunity to be cleansed from all sin and return unto him in his kingdom. Those who choose to do so will be blessed. Those who choose of their own free will to rebel against God will not receive the blessing. But God does even allow us to repent and change while there is still time due to his mercy and love toward us. May we all learn to love one another as God has loved us that we might find peace and happiness in this world. Yes, we have the capacity to great good with our free will. If only we were willing to do so.

Through all of God's commandments he has shown us the way to have peace on earth if we would just follow his teachings.

Really? Where are these teachings? The 10 Commandments say we shouldn't commit murder but the Israelites committed genocide at God's command.

God wanted to give those who were willing to follow his will and choose goodness over evil the opportunity to be cleansed from all sin and return unto him in his kingdom.

Really? Why does he allow so many different religions with so many different visions of His will to exist? Even Christianity is so varied how can someone ever choose the correct view of His will?