The Lie That Broke Israel's Back

[konradv]

You asked what the eastern border was. I showed you, dipshit.
Next inane comment.

I asked why Palestine and other countries are "made up", but Israel isn't? When you going to answer THAT question, fuckwit? Quit trying to divert attention from a comment you made, but can't back up!!!

 

[The Rabbi]

You just said countries are invented. What you posted doesn't address that at all. I'm not going to accept a side step. My computer has nothing to do with the subject. I can only assume that you have no counter to my argument, so you had to try a distraction tactic. FAIL!!!

No, I did not say countries are invented. So the basis of your question is an error.
Try again.

You said:

Many countries were inventions of other countries. The U.S. for example.

My critique stands. YOU try again. I'm not going to to be fooled by you selective quoting sleight of hand.

That's correct. Many countries are inventions. Many are not. "Palestine" is not. There was never a country called "Palestine." There is still not a country called "Palestine." There was a country called "Israel" and there is one today.
Which part of that do you not get?

 

[konradv]

No, I did not say countries are invented. So the basis of your question is an error.
Try again.

You said:

Many countries were inventions of other countries. The U.S. for example.

My critique stands. YOU try again. I'm not going to to be fooled by you selective quoting sleight of hand.

That's correct. Many countries are inventions. Many are not. "Palestine" is not. There was never a country called "Palestine." There is still not a country called "Palestine." There was a country called "Israel" and there is one today.
Which part of that do you not get?

The part where you say countries are invented, but somehow the country of Palestine can't be invented. Israel and Palestine were both invented by the U.N. in 1948. That's FACT. The U.N. just reaffirmed that creation. I guess the part I don't get is, why you think the fact that there's never been a country called Palestine before is relevant. Until the 20th century there never were countries called Belarus, Slovenia or Slovakia, either. So what? You're just using double talk. One minute a country can be invented and the next it can't.

 

[The Rabbi]

You said:

Many countries were inventions of other countries. The U.S. for example.

My critique stands. YOU try again. I'm not going to to be fooled by you selective quoting sleight of hand.

That's correct. Many countries are inventions. Many are not. "Palestine" is not. There was never a country called "Palestine." There is still not a country called "Palestine." There was a country called "Israel" and there is one today.
Which part of that do you not get?

The part where you say countries are invented, but somehow the country of Palestine can't be invented. Israel and Palestine were both invented by the U.N. in 1948. That's FACT. The U.N. just reaffirmed that creation. I guess the part I don't get is, why you think the fact that there's never been a country called Palestine before is relevant. Until the 20th century there never were countries called Belarus, Slovenia or Slovakia, either. So what? You're just using double talk. One minute a country can be invented and the next it can't.

You seem to want to make the argument that since Israel was declared a state by the UN then "Palestine" can be declared a state too. I don't argue with that assertion. The UN can declare your living room a state as well. That doesn't really mean much though.
But the Big Lie is not that Palestine cannot be invented. It is that there was ever a Palestine to begin with. There was not. Israel did not capture the territory from "Palestine." It captured it from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. So the UN is not reconstituting Palestine. It is inventing something that never existed previously.

 

[konradv]

That's correct. Many countries are inventions. Many are not. "Palestine" is not. There was never a country called "Palestine." There is still not a country called "Palestine." There was a country called "Israel" and there is one today.
Which part of that do you not get?

The part where you say countries are invented, but somehow the country of Palestine can't be invented. Israel and Palestine were both invented by the U.N. in 1948. That's FACT. The U.N. just reaffirmed that creation. I guess the part I don't get is, why you think the fact that there's never been a country called Palestine before is relevant. Until the 20th century there never were countries called Belarus, Slovenia or Slovakia, either. So what? You're just using double talk. One minute a country can be invented and the next it can't.

You seem to want to make the argument that since Israel was declared a state by the UN then "Palestine" can be declared a state too. I don't argue with that assertion. The UN can declare your living room a state as well. That doesn't really mean much though.
But the Big Lie is not that Palestine cannot be invented. It is that there was ever a Palestine to begin with. There was not. Israel did not capture the territory from "Palestine." It captured it from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. So the UN is not reconstituting Palestine. It is inventing something that never existed previously.

Who said there ever was a Palestine before 1948? The Big Lie seems to be three-fold, A) that anyone has said there was such a state in the past B) that that fact is in any way relevant and C) that land captured in 1948 was not designated by the U.N. as belonging to Palestine. Sorry, you registered another FAIL!

 

[The Rabbi]

The part where you say countries are invented, but somehow the country of Palestine can't be invented. Israel and Palestine were both invented by the U.N. in 1948. That's FACT. The U.N. just reaffirmed that creation. I guess the part I don't get is, why you think the fact that there's never been a country called Palestine before is relevant. Until the 20th century there never were countries called Belarus, Slovenia or Slovakia, either. So what? You're just using double talk. One minute a country can be invented and the next it can't.

You seem to want to make the argument that since Israel was declared a state by the UN then "Palestine" can be declared a state too. I don't argue with that assertion. The UN can declare your living room a state as well. That doesn't really mean much though.
But the Big Lie is not that Palestine cannot be invented. It is that there was ever a Palestine to begin with. There was not. Israel did not capture the territory from "Palestine." It captured it from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. So the UN is not reconstituting Palestine. It is inventing something that never existed previously.

Who said there ever was a Palestine before 1948? The Big Lie seems to be three-fold, A) that anyone has said there was such a state in the past B) that that fact is in any way relevant and C) that land captured in 1948 was not designated by the U.N. as belonging to Palestine. Sorry, you registered another FAIL!

We agree and I fail?? No, I dont think so.

 

[konradv]

You seem to want to make the argument that since Israel was declared a state by the UN then "Palestine" can be declared a state too. I don't argue with that assertion. The UN can declare your living room a state as well. That doesn't really mean much though.
But the Big Lie is not that Palestine cannot be invented. It is that there was ever a Palestine to begin with. There was not. Israel did not capture the territory from "Palestine." It captured it from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. So the UN is not reconstituting Palestine. It is inventing something that never existed previously.

Who said there ever was a Palestine before 1948? The Big Lie seems to be three-fold, A) that anyone has said there was such a state in the past B) that that fact is in any way relevant and C) that land captured in 1948 was not designated by the U.N. as belonging to Palestine. Sorry, you registered another FAIL!

We agree and I fail?? No, I dont think so.

You fail in your contention that Palestine being a new country makes it somehow illegitimate. Tell it to the Belarussians, Slovenians and Slovakians.

 

[The Rabbi]

Who said there ever was a Palestine before 1948? The Big Lie seems to be three-fold, A) that anyone has said there was such a state in the past B) that that fact is in any way relevant and C) that land captured in 1948 was not designated by the U.N. as belonging to Palestine. Sorry, you registered another FAIL!

We agree and I fail?? No, I dont think so.

You fail in your contention that Palestine being a new country makes it somehow illegitimate. Tell it to the Belarussians, Slovenians and Slovakians.

If that were my contention you'd be right. But it isn't.

"Palestine" could be a new country. But is new as of last week. It was not new in 1967 or 1973. It didnt exist then.

 

[Antares]

LOL...another uneducated idiot.

What was Syria's role in this?

What Nasser doing in the Sinai?

Dumbfuck.

In 1948, one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine inflicted a Jewish State by force of arms upon two-thirds of all Palestinians. In 1967 the Jews launched another war that lasted six days, tripled the amount of land controlled by Israel and subjected another one million Arabs to Jewish occupation

"Arab armies had been vanquished in six days, the territories lost to Israel."

Those territories were and are subject to international law like this from the Fourth Geneva Convention:

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Over the past forty years Israel has filled the Occupied Territories with hundreds of thousands of Jews from all around the planet in violation of international law.

The Big Lie comes when Israel annexs all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and five million Jews rule six million Arabs in a "democratic" state.

 

[Wehrwolfen]

Given that Israel was an invention of the United Nations,

don't you see the irony here??

So much for your knowledge of history. It was the league of Nations and the Balfour Agreement.

The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library."
See:
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

LOL...another uneducated idiot.

What was Syria's role in this?

What Nasser doing in the Sinai?

Dumbfuck.

In 1948, one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine inflicted a Jewish State by force of arms upon two-thirds of all Palestinians. In 1967 the Jews launched another war that lasted six days, tripled the amount of land controlled by Israel and subjected another one million Arabs to Jewish occupation

"Arab armies had been vanquished in six days, the territories lost to Israel."

Those territories were and are subject to international law like this from the Fourth Geneva Convention:

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Over the past forty years Israel has filled the Occupied Territories with hundreds of thousands of Jews from all around the planet in violation of international law.

The Big Lie comes when Israel annexs all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and five million Jews rule six million Arabs in a "democratic" state.

It wasn't Syria or Nasser's role in the Sinai that set al-Nakba in motion, Moron; it was 650,000 Jews inflicting a Jewish State on the majority of Palestinians in 1948.

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة*, an-Nakbah, lit. 'disaster', 'catastrophe', or 'cataclysm'),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War."

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[konradv]

We agree and I fail?? No, I dont think so.

You fail in your contention that Palestine being a new country makes it somehow illegitimate. Tell it to the Belarussians, Slovenians and Slovakians.

If that were my contention you'd be right. But it isn't.

"Palestine" could be a new country. But is new as of last week. It was not new in 1967 or 1973. It didnt exist then.

The U.N. "invented" Palestine in 1948. What's this 1967 & 1973 babble about? You're cherry-picking your favorite part of the story and ignoring the origins. At the time Israel didn't exist either, so they were equivalent.

 

[konradv]

Given that Israel was an invention of the United Nations,

don't you see the irony here??

So much for your knowledge of history. It was the league of Nations and the Balfour Agreement.

The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library."
See:
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you. The Rabbi claims that Palestine never existed, but as we see, the British intended to provide a home for Jews there. They said nothing about a nation.

 

[The Rabbi]

You fail in your contention that Palestine being a new country makes it somehow illegitimate. Tell it to the Belarussians, Slovenians and Slovakians.

If that were my contention you'd be right. But it isn't.

"Palestine" could be a new country. But is new as of last week. It was not new in 1967 or 1973. It didnt exist then.

The U.N. "invented" Palestine in 1948. What's this 1967 & 1973 babble about? You're cherry-picking your favorite part of the story and ignoring the origins. At the time Israel didn't exist either, so they were equivalent.

THe UN did not "invent" Palestine in 1948. THere was no Palestine in 1948. You are increasingly irrelevant.

 

[The Rabbi]

Given that Israel was an invention of the United Nations,

don't you see the irony here??

So much for your knowledge of history. It was the league of Nations and the Balfour Agreement.

The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library."
See:
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you. The Rabbi claims that Palestine never existed, but as we see, the British intended to provide a home for Jews there. They said nothing about a nation.

Palestine did not exist. Any more than the Veldt exists as a state in South Africa. Or the Steppes in Russia.

 

[jgarden]

... THe UN did not "invent" Palestine in 1948. THere was no Palestine in 1948. You are increasingly irrelevant.

... Palestine did not exist. Any more than the Veldt exists as a state in South Africa. Or the Steppes in Russia.

***************************************************************************************************

15 May 1947 - the UN General Assembly created the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) to "prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine."

3 September 1947 - UNSCOP presented the Report of the Committee introducing a plan to replace the British Mandate of Palestine "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem..., the last to be under an International Trusteeship System."

29 November 1947 - the UN General Assembly voted on and approved the implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181.
- the Jewish Agency representing the Jewish minority in Palestine accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine don't

1 December 1947 - the Arab Higher Committee call for a 3 day strike and civil war ensued
- initially on the defensive, Palestinian Jews gradually moved onto the offensive
- Palestinian Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled/expelled.[76]

14 May 1948 - day before the expiration of the British Mandate
- David Ben-Gurion, leader of the Jewish Agency declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel"
- there was no specific mention as to what constituted the borders of "Eretz-Israel"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

By accepting the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 on 29 November 1947, both the United Nations and the former Jewish Agency, the predecessor of the government of Israel, have recognized the existence of an Arab state in Palestine.

While the territorial boundaries of such an Arab state may be open to question, how can the UN recognize the existance if Israel and not an Arab Palestine, given both were created by the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181?

By arguing that "Palestine did not exist," "The Rabbi" selectively chooses to accept those parts of Resolution 181 as they relate to the creation of a Jewish state, while ignoring/rejecting other parts that relate to the creation of an Arab state in Palestine.

"The Rabbi's" mindset on this topic is reminiscent of those who would deny the existence of the Holocaust.

 

[jgarden]

... That's correct. Many countries are inventions. Many are not. "Palestine" is not. There was never a country called "Palestine." There is still not a country called "Palestine." There was a country called "Israel" and there is one today.
Which part of that do you not get?

***************************************************************************************************

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181
November 29, 1947

...

PLAN OF PARTITION WITH ECONOMIC UNION
Part I. - Future Constitution and Government of Palestine

A. TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE
The Mandate for Palestine shall terminate as soon as possible but in any case not later than 1 August 1948.

The armed forces of the mandatory Power shall be progressively withdrawn from Palestine, the withdrawal to be completed as soon as possible but in any case not later than 1 August 1948.

The mandatory Power shall advise the Commission, as far in advance as possible, of its intention to terminate the mandate and to evacuate each area. The mandatory Power shall use its best endeavours to ensure that an area situated in the territory of the Jewish State, including a seaport and hinterland adequate to provide facilities for a substantial immigration, shall be evacuated at the earliest possible date and in any event not later than 1 February 1948.

Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in Part III of this Plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in Parts II and III below.

The period between the adoption by the General Assembly of its recommendation on the question of Palestine and the establishment of the independence of the Arab and Jewish States shall be a transitional period.

...

Part II. - Boundaries
A. THE ARAB STATE
The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

What part of Resolution 181, as it relates to an "independent Arab state," does "The Rabbi" not inderstand?

 

[The Rabbi]

... THe UN did not "invent" Palestine in 1948. THere was no Palestine in 1948. You are increasingly irrelevant.

... Palestine did not exist. Any more than the Veldt exists as a state in South Africa. Or the Steppes in Russia.

***************************************************************************************************

15 May 1947 - the UN General Assembly created the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) to "prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine."

3 September 1947 - UNSCOP presented the Report of the Committee introducing a plan to replace the British Mandate of Palestine "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem..., the last to be under an International Trusteeship System."

29 November 1947 - the UN General Assembly voted on and approved the implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181.
- the Jewish Agency representing the Jewish minority in Palestine accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine don't

1 December 1947 - the Arab Higher Committee call for a 3 day strike and civil war ensued
- initially on the defensive, Palestinian Jews gradually moved onto the offensive
- Palestinian Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled/expelled.[76]

14 May 1948 - day before the expiration of the British Mandate
- David Ben-Gurion, leader of the Jewish Agency declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel"
- there was no specific mention as to what constituted the borders of "Eretz-Israel"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

By accepting the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 on 29 November 1947, both the United Nations and the former Jewish Agency, the predecessor of the government of Israel, have recognized the existence of an Arab state in Palestine.

While the territorial boundaries of such an Arab state may be open to question, how can the UN recognize the existance if Israel and not an Arab Palestine, given both were created by the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181?

By arguing that "Palestine did not exist," "The Rabbi" selectively chooses to accept those parts of Resolution 181 as they relate to the creation of a Jewish state, while ignoring/rejecting other parts that relate to the creation of an Arab state in Palestine.

"The Rabbi's" mindset on this topic is reminiscent of those who would deny the existence of the Holocaust.

Whicj Arab state was created by the UN in 1948? Who were its leaders? What was its form of government?
You cannot answer these questions because there is no answer. There was no "Palestine" as a state. Palestine did not declare war on Israel. Jordan, Egypt and Syria did. Those were the only states in existence. Thus Israel conquered land from those states, not from some mythical "Palestine".

 

[The Rabbi]

... That's correct. Many countries are inventions. Many are not. "Palestine" is not. There was never a country called "Palestine." There is still not a country called "Palestine." There was a country called "Israel" and there is one today.
Which part of that do you not get?

***************************************************************************************************

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181
November 29, 1947

...

PLAN OF PARTITION WITH ECONOMIC UNION
Part I. - Future Constitution and Government of Palestine

A. TERMINATION OF MANDATE, PARTITION AND INDEPENDENCE
The Mandate for Palestine shall terminate as soon as possible but in any case not later than 1 August 1948.

The armed forces of the mandatory Power shall be progressively withdrawn from Palestine, the withdrawal to be completed as soon as possible but in any case not later than 1 August 1948.

The mandatory Power shall advise the Commission, as far in advance as possible, of its intention to terminate the mandate and to evacuate each area. The mandatory Power shall use its best endeavours to ensure that an area situated in the territory of the Jewish State, including a seaport and hinterland adequate to provide facilities for a substantial immigration, shall be evacuated at the earliest possible date and in any event not later than 1 February 1948.

Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in Part III of this Plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in Parts II and III below.

The period between the adoption by the General Assembly of its recommendation on the question of Palestine and the establishment of the independence of the Arab and Jewish States shall be a transitional period.

...

Part II. - Boundaries
A. THE ARAB STATE
The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier

The Avalon Project : UN General Assembly Resolution 181

What part of Resolution 181, as it relates to an "independent Arab state," does "The Rabbi" not inderstand?

What was the name of this "independent Arab state"? What form of government did it have? WHo were its leaders?
Which part of "there was no such thing" did you miss?

It brings up the question as to why Israel's enemies want to invent a political entity that never existed. Is it mere stupidity and ignorance?

 

[konradv]

If that were my contention you'd be right. But it isn't.

"Palestine" could be a new country. But is new as of last week. It was not new in 1967 or 1973. It didnt exist then.

The U.N. "invented" Palestine in 1948. What's this 1967 & 1973 babble about? You're cherry-picking your favorite part of the story and ignoring the origins. At the time Israel didn't exist either, so they were equivalent.

THe UN did not "invent" Palestine in 1948. THere was no Palestine in 1948. You are increasingly irrelevant.

Palestine existed since the end of WW I, thirty years BEFORE the modern state of Israel. Do some research before posting foolishness.