The Legality of Income Taxes / Freedom to Fascism

[Toro]

Right. And we have a professor of law who addresses point by point where Freedom to Fascism is wrong.

you sound like a retarded child. "Santa Claus and/or my Daddy said it so it must be true ! ! !" i don't give a fuck WHO he is.

i agree with his points because he is making sense. i could care less if he is a professor of law or a crack whore.

learn to make arguments that are logical.

by the way i have seen Freedom to Fascism ...

" Money Masters - how international bankers gained control of America " is a much better movie ...

If you break your arm, do you go to a crack whore or a doctor?

This is an argument about the law. A professor of law generally has a better understanding of the law than a movie maker.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The US Constitution

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.)

Article I section 2.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time

Article I section 9

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress

Article I section 10

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

14th Amendment section 2

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment 16

These are the Constitutional powers granted the United States House of Representatives in regards taxation and raising of all revenue.

BOTH Amendments were properly presented and properly approved in accordance with the US Constitution. One can look at the ratification of said Amendments on the Internet.

Income tax is completely LEGAL. Always has been and until someone passes a new Amendment will REMAIN legal.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Toro]

Pfft, as if the constitution has anything to do with the law, RGS...

 

[WillowTree]

I was listening to Neil Boortz on my way home just now.. He was saying that the populist democwats in Maryland decided they were going to up the taxes on all the people in Maryland that earned more than one million dollars.. and so they did.. to date a third of those people earning a million dollars or more have packed up and left the state leaving Maryland with 100 million dollars less than they had last year in tax revenues.. but you cannot tell a DUmb Democwat that.. they know it all.

 

[sealybobo]

Interesting read. I've never seen Freedom to Fascism and have no desire to, but I have tried to explain to others that whether we like it or not, and I don't, the 16th amendment does make the income tax perfectly legal.

It says congress has no new taxing powers in the 16th amendment.

Trust me guys, they slipped one by us all. This tax is how they get away with their overspending.

And the debt is how they own us.

 

[sealybobo]

Right. And we have a professor of law who addresses point by point where Freedom to Fascism is wrong.

Lots of law professionals agree and lots disagree.

If I'm wrong because most disagree, then I'm right about global warming?

 

[sealybobo]

The US Constitution

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.)

Article I section 2.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time

Article I section 9




Article I section 10

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

14th Amendment section 2

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment 16

These are the Constitutional powers granted the United States House of Representatives in regards taxation and raising of all revenue.

BOTH Amendments were properly presented and properly approved in accordance with the US Constitution. One can look at the ratification of said Amendments on the Internet.

Income tax is completely LEGAL. Always has been and until someone passes a new Amendment will REMAIN legal.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed [240 U.S. 103, 113] in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed.

If it was obvious that they fucked us, they wouldn't have gotten away with it in the very beginning. So no question that on the surface it looks like this was all done legitimately.

But now we know it is unconstitutional, wasn't ratified by enough states, etc.

So congrats for not being smart enough to see this.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't remember exactly where I read it, but here's one source that talks about it.

PublicEye.org - Debunking the Federal Reserve Conspiracy Theories

Interesting. I've not heard of a bill calling for broader powers for the GAO in auditing the Fed until H.R. 1207 in this session of Congress. Not that there couldn't have been any, of course. I'll say then that none of them have been as successful as the current bill, which now has around 156 co-sponsors.

I believe that is true, "bash the fed" scapegoating along with the evil bankers that control the world kind of conspriacy thinking tends to propogate during harder economic times.

Because they cause those hard economic times.

If you just study the Guilded Age, you'll see history repeating itself.

Then look at what started the Great Depression.

And the Robber Barons that started the federal reserve also owned the oil companies.

And the Lehman Brothers and those kinds of investment firms were the firms that found all the corporations those offshore tax haven/loopholes. And right at the end of Bush's presidency they demanded $750 billion or else?

Are you all so fucking naive?

 

[Iriemon]

Right. And we have a professor of law who addresses point by point where Freedom to Fascism is wrong.

Lots of law professionals agree and lots disagree.

If I'm wrong because most disagree, then I'm right about global warming?

Dude, point to some reliable authority that says the United State Code is not the law.

And if you come up with some yahoo on a website that says they are not, I'll invite you test your theory by walking into the US attorney's office blowing smoke out of a crack pipe, and tell them they can't arrest you because the drug prohibition provisions in the United States Code aren't laws.

Sheesh. You can't even acknowledge that the freaking US Code are laws and you're blathering all this nonsense.

 

[sealybobo]

The myth that income taxes are illegal is just an example of the multitude of lies that have been perpetrated on the Americam peopl by the wingnuts. It has not blossomed into policy yet, but it is surely being used in support of the whole wingnut agenda:

WMDs in IRAQ
Iraq supporting Al Queda
Iraq responsible for 9/11
Stay the course
10,000 missing weapons in Iraq
The Russians are taking over Georgia
Support for Chechnian terrorists
NAFTA
Supply-side economics
Free market
America is a Christian Country
Monica Lewinsky
The Contract with America
Trickle down
The Soviet invasion of Austria
Tax and Spend Liberals
Government is the problem...
Free Liberaterianism
GWB having a brain
Sarah Palin having a brain
The FOX news network
Rush Limbaugh
The Carlyle Group
The Keating 5
Income Tax is illegal

The list goes on and on and on.....

Don't forget Enron, Blackwater and Haloburton. Great list though.

 

[del]

The US Constitution

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.)

Article I section 2.



Article I section 9




Article I section 10



14th Amendment section 2

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment 16

These are the Constitutional powers granted the United States House of Representatives in regards taxation and raising of all revenue.

BOTH Amendments were properly presented and properly approved in accordance with the US Constitution. One can look at the ratification of said Amendments on the Internet.

Income tax is completely LEGAL. Always has been and until someone passes a new Amendment will REMAIN legal.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed [240 U.S. 103, 113] in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed.

If it was obvious that they fucked us, they wouldn't have gotten away with it in the very beginning. So no question that on the surface it looks like this was all done legitimately.

But now we know it is unconstitutional, wasn't ratified by enough states, etc.

So congrats for not being smart enough to see this.

do you have L and R painted on your shoes?

the 16th amendment is by definition constitutional and has been since it was ratified in 1913 by 36 states.

did you suffer a lot of head trauma when you were younger?

 

[Iriemon]

Interesting. I've not heard of a bill calling for broader powers for the GAO in auditing the Fed until H.R. 1207 in this session of Congress. Not that there couldn't have been any, of course. I'll say then that none of them have been as successful as the current bill, which now has around 156 co-sponsors.

I believe that is true, "bash the fed" scapegoating along with the evil bankers that control the world kind of conspriacy thinking tends to propogate during harder economic times.

Because they cause those hard economic times.

If you just study the Guilded Age, you'll see history repeating itself.

Then look at what started the Great Depression.

And the Robber Barons that started the federal reserve also owned the oil companies.

And the Lehman Brothers and those kinds of investment firms were the firms that found all the corporations those offshore tax haven/loopholes. And right at the end of Bush's presidency they demanded $750 billion or else?

You have a constitutional remedy. Get your friends together and file a lawsuit in federal court claiming the 16th Amendment is void. Good luck.

Are you all so fucking naive?

Of course not. We are all part of the great conspiracy. It's called America.

 

[Toro]

You have a constitutional remedy. Get your friends together and file a lawsuit in federal court claiming the 16th Amendment is void. Good luck.

Exactly. Go ahead and file a lawsuit. If you are correct, you will be a hero and very wealthy. You should have no problem finding funding to fund your lawsuit. Lots of rich people hate paying income taxes.

What are you waiting for?

 

[sealybobo]

The US Constitution



Article I section 2.



Article I section 9




Article I section 10



14th Amendment section 2




Amendment 16

These are the Constitutional powers granted the United States House of Representatives in regards taxation and raising of all revenue.

BOTH Amendments were properly presented and properly approved in accordance with the US Constitution. One can look at the ratification of said Amendments on the Internet.

Income tax is completely LEGAL. Always has been and until someone passes a new Amendment will REMAIN legal.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed [240 U.S. 103, 113] in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed.

If it was obvious that they fucked us, they wouldn't have gotten away with it in the very beginning. So no question that on the surface it looks like this was all done legitimately.

But now we know it is unconstitutional, wasn't ratified by enough states, etc.

So congrats for not being smart enough to see this.

do you have L and R painted on your shoes?

the 16th amendment is by definition constitutional and has been since it was ratified in 1913 by 36 states.

did you suffer a lot of head trauma when you were younger?

Yes, the Supreme Court is in on this.

They ruled before the income tax was passed that doing such a thing is unconstitutional.

So fine. If you want the status quo on this, fuck it. I give up.

Fuck your flat tax.

 

[sealybobo]

You have a constitutional remedy. Get your friends together and file a lawsuit in federal court claiming the 16th Amendment is void. Good luck.

Exactly. Go ahead and file a lawsuit. If you are correct, you will be a hero and very wealthy. You should have no problem finding funding to fund your lawsuit. Lots of rich people hate paying income taxes.

What are you waiting for?

They don't need me. They have tax attorneys who know how to get around paying income taxes.

Its you who's getting fucked.

 

[Toro]

You have a constitutional remedy. Get your friends together and file a lawsuit in federal court claiming the 16th Amendment is void. Good luck.

Exactly. Go ahead and file a lawsuit. If you are correct, you will be a hero and very wealthy. You should have no problem finding funding to fund your lawsuit. Lots of rich people hate paying income taxes.

What are you waiting for?

They don't need me. They have tax attorneys who know how to get around paying income taxes.

Its you who's getting fucked.

So you're not paying income taxes then? Because you'd be getting fucked also.

Rich people pay taxes. They pay half the income taxes of this country. So they do need you. Go convince them. You'll be rich and famous. Walk the talk.

 

[del]

the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed [240 U.S. 103, 113] in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed.

If it was obvious that they fucked us, they wouldn't have gotten away with it in the very beginning. So no question that on the surface it looks like this was all done legitimately.

But now we know it is unconstitutional, wasn't ratified by enough states, etc.

So congrats for not being smart enough to see this.

do you have L and R painted on your shoes?

the 16th amendment is by definition constitutional and has been since it was ratified in 1913 by 36 states.

did you suffer a lot of head trauma when you were younger?

Yes, the Supreme Court is in on this.

They ruled before the income tax was passed that doing such a thing is unconstitutional.

So fine. If you want the status quo on this, fuck it. I give up.

Fuck your flat tax.

duh, that's why the constitution was amended.

how long was the umbilical cord wrapped around your neck at birth?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The US Constitution

(Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) (The previous sentence in parentheses was modified by the 14th Amendment, section 2.)

Article I section 2.



Article I section 9




Article I section 10



14th Amendment section 2

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment 16

These are the Constitutional powers granted the United States House of Representatives in regards taxation and raising of all revenue.

BOTH Amendments were properly presented and properly approved in accordance with the US Constitution. One can look at the ratification of said Amendments on the Internet.

Income tax is completely LEGAL. Always has been and until someone passes a new Amendment will REMAIN legal.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed [240 U.S. 103, 113] in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed.

If it was obvious that they fucked us, they wouldn't have gotten away with it in the very beginning. So no question that on the surface it looks like this was all done legitimately.

But now we know it is unconstitutional, wasn't ratified by enough states, etc.

So congrats for not being smart enough to see this.

Provide actual evidence that the 16th Amendment was not legally passed. I can cite the ratification process that CLEARLY proves it WAS properly passed.

 

[Toro]

I think the argument goes something along the lines that the amendment was passed illegally because someone was bribed or threatened or something like that.

 

[neurosport]

If you break your arm, do you go to a crack whore or a doctor?

This is an argument about the law. A professor of law generally has a better understanding of the law than a movie maker.

so if your car is in perfect running condition and a mechanic tells you that you need to replace the engine, transmission, steering, suspension and air conditioning - do you believe your eyes ( there's nothing wrong with the car ) or do you believe the mechanic ( after all, he is a professional )

what some professional knows is what HE knows. it is not what YOU know. do not confuse what YOU know for what somebody ELSE knows. you don't know what somebody else knows - all you know is what they are SAYING. how can you be so stupid as to not see the difference ?

why don't you read the Bible to find the answers to all of Life's questions ? after all God knows better than humans. after all what is written in the Bible is exactly the same as what God thinks right ? RIGHT ? ? ?

W R O N G ! ! !

Toro stop being an idiot ...