The issue of the land

[Wolverine1984]

It is generally recognized that land inside your borders is yours and land not inside your borders belongs to somebody else.

Palestine has borders.

Israel does not.

Palestine is not a state , the borders you speak of is a definition of a geographical area. like toomuchtime said , it's like saying the US is in the international borders of North America.
Your claim did not refute that .

Ahhh, but they are Palestine's borders. The region, territory, state, whatever belongs to the Palestinians.

Israel has no borders.

What are you talking about ? they are not borders they are a definition of a geographical area.

region territory and state are not the same thing at all.

If we call a geographical area Palestine , I does not mean it belongs to some one.

Lets define a geographical area and call it smiley. let's decide that smiley is the area of the continent of Asia.
Good now we have a geographical area called smiley but in no way this smiley now belongs to Smilelilans (People who live inside the geographical area of Smilelandia ), nor Smiley is a country or a state.

Israel has no borders

If that is true then Egypt,Jordan,Lebanon, and Syria have no borders also which is false.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If we call a geographical area Palestine , I does not mean it belongs to some one.

Israelispeak at its best.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has no borders.

If that is true then Egypt,Jordan,Lebanon, and Syria have no borders also which is false.

You are.

Palestine has borders with all those countries.

 

[Wolverine1984]

Israel has no borders.

If that is true then Egypt,Jordan,Lebanon, and Syria have no borders also which is false.

You are.

Palestine has borders with all those countries.

I am what ?
Countries have borders with other countries not geographical areas, there never was a country named Palestine , only a geographical area.

If we call a geographical area Palestine , I does not mean it belongs to some one.

Israelispeak at its best.

I see , this is how you respond when you can't find a valid argument to support your claim.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has no borders.

You are.

Palestine has borders with all those countries.

I am what ?
Countries have borders with other countries not geographical areas, there never was a country named Palestine , only a geographical area.

If we call a geographical area Palestine , I does not mean it belongs to some one.

Israelispeak at its best.

I see , this is how you respond when you can't find a valid argument to support your claim.

You are false.

2. The area thus demilitarized shall be as follows: From a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres north-west of the intersection of the Rafah-El Auja road and the frontier (MR 08750468), south-east to Khashm El Mamdud (MR 09650414), thence south-east to Hill 405 (MR 10780285), thence south-west to a point on the Egypt-Palestine frontier five (5) kilometres southeast of the intersection of the old railway tracks and the frontier (MR 09950145), thence returning north-west along the Egypt-Palestine frontier to the point of origin.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949

(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions as surveyed in March 1949 by United Nations observers, and shall run from north to south as delineated on map 1 in annex I to this Agreement.

The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

3. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall be as delineated on the map attached to this Agreement as annex I.(3) The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow a line midway between the existing truce lines, as certified by the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization for the Israeli and Syrian forces. Where the existing truce lines run along the international boundary between Syria and Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the boundary line

The Avalon Project : Israeli-Syrian General Armistice Agreement, July 20, 1949

 

[Wolverine1984]

LOL you think this proves something ? Where does it state here that Palestine is or ever was a country ?

Saying the southernmost tip of Palestine is the same thing as saying southernmost tip of North America - does it mean that North America is a sovereign state ? No.

Palestine is a geographical area.

Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el, פלסטינה Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين* Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn) is a conventional name, among others, used to describe the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands
The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were first defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the British Mandate for Palestine. Today, the region comprises the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories

Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

LOL you think this proves something ? Where does it state here that Palestine is or ever was a country ?

Saying the southernmost tip of Palestine is the same thing as saying southernmost tip of North America - does it mean that North America is a sovereign state ? No.

Palestine is a geographical area.

Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el, פלסטינה Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين* Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn) is a conventional name, among others, used to describe the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands
The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were first defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the British Mandate for Palestine. Today, the region comprises the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories

Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You wouldn't have a map of that so called country of Israel, would you?

 

[Hossfly]

LOL you think this proves something ? Where does it state here that Palestine is or ever was a country ?

Saying the southernmost tip of Palestine is the same thing as saying southernmost tip of North America - does it mean that North America is a sovereign state ? No.

Palestine is a geographical area.

Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el, פלסטינה Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين* Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn) is a conventional name, among others, used to describe the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands
The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were first defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the British Mandate for Palestine. Today, the region comprises the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories

Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You wouldn't have a map of that so called country of Israel, would you?

PFT will dispute this too.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/

 

[MJB12741]

Good point Tinmore. Yes, Israel needs to claim its borders. How about from Syria/Lebanon to Egypt to Jordan? Happy now?

It is interesting that all the land Israel claims is theirs is inside Palestine's international borders.

In exactly the same sense as all the land the US claims is within the international borders of North America.

It is generally recognized that land inside your borders is yours and land not inside your borders belongs to somebody else.

Palestine has borders.

Israel does not.

 

[JDzBrain]

You are false...

NO...He's not!

Dude, the Avalon project was...as was everything else about Israel and Palestine...was the legacy of a MADE UP out of the minds of historically illiterate British bureaucrats in something called the British Mandate for Palestine, which was intended to deal with what they called the Palestine and Transjordan regions in the aftermath of the failure of British imperialism in the region. It had NO basis in historical fact outside of the fact that those names were taken from the history of that region.

The terms used in the Avalon project mixed and matched names for the sovereign boundaries of countries of the time and the language from the British Mandate for Palestine to describe the PROPOSED NEW boundaries for the ceasefire after one of SEVERAL times Arab countries around Israel were driven OUT of the region when they invaded the proposed NEW land of Israel. That particular time, the DAY AFTER it was declared a nation.

The boundaries for the MADE UP land of Palestine you are citing...which never existed by the way...bares NO RESEMBLANCE to the Palestine of antiquity!

Now if someone wants to make the case that Israel has practiced expansionism since declaring independence and beating back the Arab invasion...THE NEXT DAY...there is a valid point to be made. But honestly, the borders of ALL of the countries in the middle east are CONSTANTLY in contention because of the tribal nature of the people and the instability of the governments. Just have a look at the Turkey, Iraq border over the last 50 years. Or the Iraq, Iran border...OR the Syria, Lebanese borders.

Has Israel annexed land beyond what the international (UN) community wanted? Yep...but when you live in a valley and a .50 cal rifle fired from the hillside on the West Bank will land in the sea on the entire other side of your country...you MIGHT want to make sure the people trying to kill you do not occupy that land at will!

There is a reason the people of Jordan and Egypt have kept the borders between them and what was historically once their land and people, the West Bank and Gaza closed for more than 40 years. It AIN'T because they want the lands or the people back.

If the so called 'Palestinians' want peace...all they have to do is STOP KILLING and rejoin the international community!

Oh...and you want a map? Here ya go, since everyone seems to like to wiki up carp. This is what the region looked like in 830 BC.

File:Levant 830.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MJB12741]

So where is "Palestine"? Let us ask P.F. Tinmore.

You are false...

NO...He's not!

Dude, the Avalon project was...as was everything else about Israel and Palestine...was the legacy of a MADE UP out of the minds of historically illiterate British bureaucrats in something called the British Mandate for Palestine, which was intended to deal with what they called the Palestine and Transjordan regions in the aftermath of the failure of British imperialism in the region. It had NO basis in historical fact outside of the fact that those names were taken from the history of that region.

The terms used in the Avalon project mixed and matched names for the sovereign boundaries of countries of the time and the language from the British Mandate for Palestine to describe the PROPOSED NEW boundaries for the ceasefire after one of SEVERAL times Arab countries around Israel were driven OUT of the region when they invaded the proposed NEW land of Israel. That particular time, the DAY AFTER it was declared a nation.

The boundaries for the MADE UP land of Palestine you are citing...which never existed by the way...bares NO RESEMBLANCE to the Palestine of antiquity!

Now if someone wants to make the case that Israel has practiced expansionism since declaring independence and beating back the Arab invasion...THE NEXT DAY...there is a valid point to be made. But honestly, the borders of ALL of the countries in the middle east are CONSTANTLY in contention because of the tribal nature of the people and the instability of the governments. Just have a look at the Turkey, Iraq border over the last 50 years. Or the Iraq, Iran border...OR the Syria, Lebanese borders.

Has Israel annexed land beyond what the international (UN) community wanted? Yep...but when you live in a valley and a .50 cal rifle fired from the hillside on the West Bank will land in the sea on the entire other side of your country...you MIGHT want to make sure the people trying to kill you do not occupy that land at will!

There is a reason the people of Jordan and Egypt have kept the borders between them and what was historically once their land and people, the West Bank and Gaza closed for more than 40 years. It AIN'T because they want the lands or the people back.

If the so called 'Palestinians' want peace...all they have to do is STOP KILLING and rejoin the international community!

Oh...and you want a map? Here ya go, since everyone seems to like to wiki up carp. This is what the region looked like in 830 BC.

File:Levant 830.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

LOL you think this proves something ? Where does it state here that Palestine is or ever was a country ?

Saying the southernmost tip of Palestine is the same thing as saying southernmost tip of North America - does it mean that North America is a sovereign state ? No.

Palestine is a geographical area.




Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You wouldn't have a map of that so called country of Israel, would you?

PFT will dispute this too.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/

Like this one?

The maps contained in this publication are for illustrative purposes only and should not be considered authoritative.



In the spring and summer of 1949, agreements were signed between Israel and its neighbors establishing Israel's armistice lines. To some extent, these lines overlapped the borderline of Palestine during the British Mandate period, or they were close to it, with the exception of the Judea and Samaria region, and the surrounding area of the Gaza Strip. These lines were drawn up, on the assumption that they would be temporary, and would be replaced within a few years by permanent borders.

1949-1967 Armistice Lines

Of course they were never replaced by permanent borders. Israel has no borders.

 

[JDzBrain]

Of course they were never replaced by permanent borders. Israel has no borders.

That MIGHT have something to do with the fact that Isreal was attacked by it's Arab neighbors...in VIOLATION of that armistice...several more times and is STILL under attack DAILY to this moment by radicals who are supported and funded by many of the very Arab states that signed the armistice!

If Canada starts firing at us across the Niagara Falls...I will PROMISE ya that in the NEW border with Canada that results, ALL of the Falls will be within the borders of the US!

 

[MJB12741]

YEP! It sure does appear the Arab countries made a big mistake uniting to wipe Israel off the face of the earth! And it is the Palestinians who supported it that are now paying for what their own Arab brothers did to them by attacking Israel.

Of course they were never replaced by permanent borders. Israel has no borders.

That MIGHT have something to do with the fact that Isreal was attacked by it's Arab neighbors...in VIOLATION of that armistice...several more times and is STILL under attack DAILY to this moment by radicals who are supported and funded by many of the very Arab states that signed the armistice!

If Canada starts firing at us across the Niagara Falls...I will PROMISE ya that in the NEW border with Canada that results, ALL of the Falls will be within the borders of the US!

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is interesting that all the land Israel claims is theirs is inside Palestine's international borders.

In exactly the same sense as all the land the US claims is within the international borders of North America.

It is generally recognized that land inside your borders is yours and land not inside your borders belongs to somebody else.

Palestine has borders.

Israel does not.

Palestine has borders in exactly the same sense that North America has borders. By your whack a doodle logic, if Mexico changed its name to North America, it could claim New York and Toronto because both of these lie within North America.

Israel's borders with Egypt and Lebanon are clearly defined and widely recognized. Its border with Syria is also clearly defined but is disputed by Syria. Israel's eastern border has been left undefined pending the outcome of negotiations with the PA, but now that the PA has joined Hamas in rejecting a negotiated settlement with Israel in favor of unilateral action to achieve its goals, there is a strong movement in Israel to take unilateral action to annex parts of the West Bank. The current proposals run from annexing just the major blocs of Israeli communities (less than 10% of the West Bank) to all of Area C (62% of the West Bank). In the latter proposal all Arabs in Area C would become full Israeli citizens and military law would be replaced by civilian Israeli law. There are only about 50,000 Arabs in Area C and about 350,000 Israelis, so this is a very workable option. In this case, Israel's eastern border would be clearly defined as would the borders of the area controlled by the Palestinian Authority.

The Arabs have a warped sense of time. They imagine that as long as they do nothing, nothing will be done. While the PA remained engaged in negotiations, they were able to bring considerable international pressure to bear on the Israeli government and had substantial support from the Israeli left because many believed a negotiated settlement was a real possibility, but after the fiasco of the second intifada, Abbas' refusal of Olmert's proposed Palestinian state, his present refusal to negotiate a settlement with Israel and his willingness to join with Hamas, there will be very little opposition within Israel to unilaterally annexing those parts of the West Bank the Israeli government considers important and while some in the international community may object, it will have no more effect than their objections to Israel's annexation of the Golan and Jerusalem.

I expect that within a year after ending Iran's nuclear weapons program, Israel will annex parts of the West Bank and then all of its borders will be clearly defined although some of them may be disputed.

 

[72VirginCamels]

Eh? Israel has no borders? Why don't you try crossing Israel's borders and see what happens? Israel, Jordan, Syria, UAE, Quater, Abbu Dhabi, Pakistan, Iraq, etc. are all countries that were carved out of the collapsed Ottoman Empire. However you seem to have a problem with Israel only, that constitutes about 1% of the land mass of it's neighboring Muslim / Arab Countries. That couldn't be because they are Jewish and the Jews are in the homeland of their ancient ancestors, could it?!

You wouldn't have a map of that so called country of Israel, would you?

PFT will dispute this too.

Israel's Story in Maps

Like this one?

The maps contained in this publication are for illustrative purposes only and should not be considered authoritative.



In the spring and summer of 1949, agreements were signed between Israel and its neighbors establishing Israel's armistice lines. To some extent, these lines overlapped the borderline of Palestine during the British Mandate period, or they were close to it, with the exception of the Judea and Samaria region, and the surrounding area of the Gaza Strip. These lines were drawn up, on the assumption that they would be temporary, and would be replaced within a few years by permanent borders.

1949-1967 Armistice Lines

Of course they were never replaced by permanent borders. Israel has no borders.

 

[aris2chat]

The land issue is complex because of many different reason for land claims.
There is the issue of land registration, many sharecroppers when given the chance did not resister because of taxes, conscription and lack of understanding in the process.
They could not afford to register or did not want to serve in the military.
Land not registered was offered for sale, and jews legally purchased the land.
Many that lived on land owned by foreigners from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, etc. had not rights no matter how long their parents and grandparents had served on the and it's ottoman owners. They might have presumed the home and land was in some way their's as it was the only place they and their ancestors had ever known. Those who were given land under the ottoman's were free to sell, even to jews. Palestinian who left and became refugees used pictures and old keys to file claims with the PLO and fake deeds were printed in Beirut under orders from Arafat. Such deed are investigated and if found to be forged are dismissed. Those who had valid deeds or claims and went through Israeli courts were given back the land, compensated financially or given alternate land.
Land owned by the church and rented to palestinians was often sold by the church to jews.
There was also a lot of what is classified as public or state land which reverted to Israel when the british mandate ended.
Yes, some palestinian engaged in terrorism were forced out of Israel. Some land was confiscated because of criminal activity. Most that left in the first phase did so because of radio and news from their neighbors to do so. Promises of wiping out the jews. Vacant land eventually became state land and used for public services or rented
There is some bit of truth in many claims but it not as black and white as many would like to believe.
In countries around the world land can be taken by the state or owners are forced to sell at a set price to the state for use in roads, power plants, even walls for protection.
No side or faction in the century long conflict is going to sainthood but nor are they the villains they are made out to be.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The continuity of the Palestinian roots in the land in fact goes back to antiquity. Absorbing or outlasting various conquerors, Palestinians tenaciously tended their ancestral farmlands, whether as freeholders or as tenants and mortgagees, and by the end of World War 11, mostly as unfettered freeholders again. In his study of the history of landholdings in Palestine, Abraham Granott, formerly Managing Director of the Jewish National Fund, admits:

When the kingdom of Byzantium was subjugated by the Arabs, practically the whole of the land belonged to the big proprietors, the Emperor, the municipal authorities, and religious bodies, as churches and so on, while the soil was cultivated by the former owners who had remained on their plots as tenants after the land had passed into the hands of large owners.(1)

Thus the Palestinian farmers expelled by the Zionists in 1948 were the lineal descendants of the most ancient owners of the land. The Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of Palestine, the descendants of the Philistines and of all the Semitic peoples who have lived in Palestine since the time of the Canaanites. Successive waves of newcomers, such as Philistines from Crete, Semites from Iraq, Romans, Greeks and Arabs came and intermarried with the native stock.

Chapter 2: Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem

 

[Wolverine1984]

The continuity of the Palestinian roots in the land in fact goes back to antiquity.<== Have any proof ? Absorbing or outlasting various conquerors, Palestinians tenaciously tended their ancestral farmlands, whether as freeholders or as tenants and mortgagees, and by the end of World War 11, mostly as unfettered freeholders again. In his study of the history of landholdings in Palestine, Abraham Granott, formerly Managing Director of the Jewish National Fund, admits:

When the kingdom of Byzantium was subjugated by the Arabs, practically the whole of the land belonged to the big proprietors, the Emperor, the municipal authorities, and religious bodies, as churches and so on, while the soil was cultivated by the former owners who had remained on their plots as tenants after the land had passed into the hands of large owners.(1)

Thus the Palestinian farmers expelled by the Zionists in 1948 were the lineal descendants of the most ancient owners of the land. The Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of Palestine, the descendants of the Philistines and of all the Semitic peoples who have lived in Palestine since the time of the Canaanites. Successive waves of newcomers, such as Philistines from Crete, Semites from Iraq, Romans, Greeks and Arabs came and intermarried with the native stock.

Chapter 2: Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem

Are you serious ?
Your source is "http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/" ???
Well I'm sure they will be objective and tell the truth only...

The Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of Palestine, the descendants of the Philistines

It's a big fat lie , there are a number of posts around here dealing with this issue , and this claim was proven wrong.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The continuity of the Palestinian roots in the land in fact goes back to antiquity.<== Have any proof ? Absorbing or outlasting various conquerors, Palestinians tenaciously tended their ancestral farmlands, whether as freeholders or as tenants and mortgagees, and by the end of World War 11, mostly as unfettered freeholders again. In his study of the history of landholdings in Palestine, Abraham Granott, formerly Managing Director of the Jewish National Fund, admits:

When the kingdom of Byzantium was subjugated by the Arabs, practically the whole of the land belonged to the big proprietors, the Emperor, the municipal authorities, and religious bodies, as churches and so on, while the soil was cultivated by the former owners who had remained on their plots as tenants after the land had passed into the hands of large owners.(1)

Thus the Palestinian farmers expelled by the Zionists in 1948 were the lineal descendants of the most ancient owners of the land. The Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of Palestine, the descendants of the Philistines and of all the Semitic peoples who have lived in Palestine since the time of the Canaanites. Successive waves of newcomers, such as Philistines from Crete, Semites from Iraq, Romans, Greeks and Arabs came and intermarried with the native stock.

Chapter 2: Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem

Are you serious ?
Your source is "http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/" ???
Well I'm sure they will be objective and tell the truth only...

The Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of Palestine, the descendants of the Philistines

It's a big fat lie , there are a number of posts around here dealing with this issue , and this claim was proven wrong.

Of course it has not been proven wrong. You misquoted my quote. You took a piece out of context.

The Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population of Palestine, the descendants of the Philistines and of all the Semitic peoples who have lived in Palestine since the time of the Canaanites. Successive waves of newcomers, such as Philistines from Crete, Semites from Iraq, Romans, Greeks and Arabs came and intermarried with the native stock.

In order for the Palestinians to not be descendents of all these different people you would have to believe that whenever a territory falls under new rule the entire old population moves out and an entire new population moves in. Of course this does not happen.

The vast majority of the people living in mandate Palestine were direct descendents of people who predated the Ottoman Empire. Hundreds of years of Ottoman rule made an insignificant change in Palestine's population.

You probably would not find a pure Canaanite or Philistine but you would be hard pressed to find a Palestinian who does not have any lineage back to the beginning of time.