The Intrusion of Religion Into Politics

I agree our rights derive for our social contract and not the government. The government is just the vehicle we use to render our rights enforceable. The issue I have isn't philosophical, Quantum Windbag -- it's practical. I fail to see why the entire nation must or should be organized so that everyone's conduct is either RCC-approved or else criminalized.

This quest for political power on the part of any organized religion (RCC, or Mormon or whatever) is obnoxious to me because it is antithetical to the American Way: an open, diverse society governed by laws that value no faith over another -- or none at all.

What should we base our conduct on? Should we use the standards of the atheists governments, and treat human beings as nothing more than cogs in a government machine, and assign them based on needs, not capability or desire?

We have to base our moral code on something, and love your neighbor as you love yourself is the best code ever articulated. The fact that it came from a religious person is irrelevant to its effect, at least it should be. Would you feel better about it if it had been said by Aristotle? I think that makes your problem more philosophical than you thought.

The last thing you have to worry about is all the Christians getting together and agreeing on a way to run things that keeps them all happy. Concentrate on the real problems, not the ones you make up.

I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.

What a load of horseshit. I REPEAT, cite for us a relevant passage from the Constitution or our laws that BAR religion from participating in the political arena. Or admit YOU want to do EXACTLY what YOU are complaining about, shutting up people you disagree with.
 
I agree our rights derive for our social contract and not the government. The government is just the vehicle we use to render our rights enforceable. The issue I have isn't philosophical, Quantum Windbag -- it's practical. I fail to see why the entire nation must or should be organized so that everyone's conduct is either RCC-approved or else criminalized.

This quest for political power on the part of any organized religion (RCC, or Mormon or whatever) is obnoxious to me because it is antithetical to the American Way: an open, diverse society governed by laws that value no faith over another -- or none at all.

What should we base our conduct on? Should we use the standards of the atheists governments, and treat human beings as nothing more than cogs in a government machine, and assign them based on needs, not capability or desire?

We have to base our moral code on something, and love your neighbor as you love yourself is the best code ever articulated. The fact that it came from a religious person is irrelevant to its effect, at least it should be. Would you feel better about it if it had been said by Aristotle? I think that makes your problem more philosophical than you thought.

The last thing you have to worry about is all the Christians getting together and agreeing on a way to run things that keeps them all happy. Concentrate on the real problems, not the ones you make up.

I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.
The reason Prop 8 didn't pass in CA is the African American community. Period.

Yet, you make shit up and post it.

Typical.
 
I think people should think for themeselves, RGS, not be "molded" or ordered to vote a certain way by their clergy.

[W]hen good shepherds start doing their job, sheep start following them.

Huge Swing In The US Catholic Vote, Says New York Times | Mundabor's Blog

In a free country, what you think has no bearing upon others, nor does it give you the right to dictate to them what they may, or may not, do or speak of.

I think people should worship the one and only God, and accept salvation provided to them by His Son, Jesus Christ. Now...does that give me the right to force that upon you? Why no, it doesn't.

This alleged "push" by Christians to establish a theocracy is in the mind of Christian-haters only, and has no basis in fact. Hate Christians on your own time, and keep the fucking government out of it. We all have the right to worship as we please, and to speak as we please of our faith. The basis of separation of church and state is not to eliminate, but to protect, those of faith.
 
What should we base our conduct on? Should we use the standards of the atheists governments, and treat human beings as nothing more than cogs in a government machine, and assign them based on needs, not capability or desire?

We have to base our moral code on something, and love your neighbor as you love yourself is the best code ever articulated. The fact that it came from a religious person is irrelevant to its effect, at least it should be. Would you feel better about it if it had been said by Aristotle? I think that makes your problem more philosophical than you thought.

The last thing you have to worry about is all the Christians getting together and agreeing on a way to run things that keeps them all happy. Concentrate on the real problems, not the ones you make up.

I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.

What a load of horseshit. I REPEAT, cite for us a relevant passage from the Constitution or our laws that BAR religion from participating in the political arena. Or admit YOU want to do EXACTLY what YOU are complaining about, shutting up people you disagree with.

She won't, because there is no such passage. What she is advocating is exactly as you say...the marginalization and persecution of all Christians. Punishment and oppression for those who dare to voice their devotion to God....while at the same time, she desires the promotion of Islam and other groups who hate and murder Americans and Christians.

The goal here is to destroy America, and eliminate Christians.
 
I agree our rights derive for our social contract and not the government. The government is just the vehicle we use to render our rights enforceable. The issue I have isn't philosophical, Quantum Windbag -- it's practical. I fail to see why the entire nation must or should be organized so that everyone's conduct is either RCC-approved or else criminalized.

This quest for political power on the part of any organized religion (RCC, or Mormon or whatever) is obnoxious to me because it is antithetical to the American Way: an open, diverse society governed by laws that value no faith over another -- or none at all.

What should we base our conduct on? Should we use the standards of the atheists governments, and treat human beings as nothing more than cogs in a government machine, and assign them based on needs, not capability or desire?

We have to base our moral code on something, and love your neighbor as you love yourself is the best code ever articulated. The fact that it came from a religious person is irrelevant to its effect, at least it should be. Would you feel better about it if it had been said by Aristotle? I think that makes your problem more philosophical than you thought.

The last thing you have to worry about is all the Christians getting together and agreeing on a way to run things that keeps them all happy. Concentrate on the real problems, not the ones you make up.

I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.

California just defeated Prop 19, which would have legalized marijuana. Maybe the reason Prop 8 made it is that the people in California are only liberals when they are in public, in the privacy of the voting booth they let their innate common sense, which some call conservatism, take charge. The result is that CA is actually redder than it looks on paper.

Stop blaming the right wing because the largest liberal voting block in the US disagrees with you.
 
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I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.

What a load of horseshit. I REPEAT, cite for us a relevant passage from the Constitution or our laws that BAR religion from participating in the political arena. Or admit YOU want to do EXACTLY what YOU are complaining about, shutting up people you disagree with.

She won't, because there is no such passage. What she is advocating is exactly as you say...the marginalization and persecution of all Christians. Punishment and oppression for those who dare to voice their devotion to God....while at the same time, she desires the promotion of Islam and other groups who hate and murder Americans and Christians.

The goal here is to destroy America, and eliminate Christians.

O get a grip, Allie. When have I ever said I wanted to persecute christians or destroy America? I just don't like the Pope telling the Catholics Americans they "must" oppose gay marriage or "must" be single issue voters.

Why is it the Religious Right is always on the warpath against the dignity, peace and rights of some group they do not include among their numbers? Don't you people have enough to do, running your own lives?
 
I think people should think for themeselves, RGS, not be "molded" or ordered to vote a certain way by their clergy.

[W]hen good shepherds start doing their job, sheep start following them.

Huge Swing In The US Catholic Vote, Says New York Times | Mundabor's Blog

In a free country, what you think has no bearing upon others, nor does it give you the right to dictate to them what they may, or may not, do or speak of.

I think people should worship the one and only God, and accept salvation provided to them by His Son, Jesus Christ. Now...does that give me the right to force that upon you? Why no, it doesn't.

This alleged "push" by Christians to establish a theocracy is in the mind of Christian-haters only, and has no basis in fact. Hate Christians on your own time, and keep the fucking government out of it. We all have the right to worship as we please, and to speak as we please of our faith. The basis of separation of church and state is not to eliminate, but to protect, those of faith.

I do not hate anyone, let alone all christians. I hate religious leaders abusing their authority by attempting to whip their faithful into a voting bloc to defeat the rights of non-congregants. You HAVE no right to tell me or mine they cannot have an abortion, marry someone of the same sex, benefit from medical advances derived from stem cell research, etc. Your "rights" do not include the "right" to intrude into my private life, backed by the power of government, to prevent me from doing things you may never be aware of but imagine I might do which make you uncomfy.

Your discomfort with whatever you may imagine my private life to be, or the private lives of others you don't know and don't have a claim to, is your own responsibility, not mine.
 
What should we base our conduct on? Should we use the standards of the atheists governments, and treat human beings as nothing more than cogs in a government machine, and assign them based on needs, not capability or desire?

We have to base our moral code on something, and love your neighbor as you love yourself is the best code ever articulated. The fact that it came from a religious person is irrelevant to its effect, at least it should be. Would you feel better about it if it had been said by Aristotle? I think that makes your problem more philosophical than you thought.

The last thing you have to worry about is all the Christians getting together and agreeing on a way to run things that keeps them all happy. Concentrate on the real problems, not the ones you make up.

I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.

California just defeated Prop 19, which would have legalized marijuana. Maybe the reason Prop 8 made it is that the people in California are only liberals when they are in public, in the privacy of the voting booth they let their innate common sense, which some call conservatism, take charge. The result is that CA is actually redder than it looks on paper.

Stop blaming the right wing because the largest liberal voting block in the US disagrees with you.

The Religious Right pumped millions into a shameful campaign of disinformation in California over gay marriage. I expect you to be honest enough to admit, this sort of propagandizing by certain of the religious leaders against those who are not members of their faith is a problem in US politics.

I did not say it was one we could solve, Quantum Windbag, just an abuse we should condemn.
 
I am not making up the problems posed by the Religious Right, and you know it. But for the RCC and the Mormon Church bankrolling a massive campaign of disinformation, Prop 8 never would have passed in California and the Pope has very clearly said, banning gay marriage is a Catholic agenda item for the RCC.

And that's exactly my point. Why not be satisfied to withhold the sacrament of marriage from same-sex couples who are Catholic? Why is it desired to end gay marriage ceremonies performed on Lutherans, etc.? The RCC's heirarchy is a bunch of officious intermeddlers with boundary issues, IMO.

California just defeated Prop 19, which would have legalized marijuana. Maybe the reason Prop 8 made it is that the people in California are only liberals when they are in public, in the privacy of the voting booth they let their innate common sense, which some call conservatism, take charge. The result is that CA is actually redder than it looks on paper.

Stop blaming the right wing because the largest liberal voting block in the US disagrees with you.

The Religious Right pumped millions into a shameful campaign of disinformation in California over gay marriage. I expect you to be honest enough to admit, this sort of propagandizing by certain of the religious leaders against those who are not members of their faith is a problem in US politics.

I did not say it was one we could solve, Quantum Windbag, just an abuse we should condemn.


And Meg Whitman pumped millions onto her campaign, and lost. People made up their own minds, and voted the way they did for their own reasons. Do you really think that the voting block that voted overwhelmingly for Obama cared enough about what the Mormons think to vote the way they wanted simply because they spent more money? If so, how do you explain that the same people didn't care about money just tow years later?
 
California just defeated Prop 19, which would have legalized marijuana. Maybe the reason Prop 8 made it is that the people in California are only liberals when they are in public, in the privacy of the voting booth they let their innate common sense, which some call conservatism, take charge. The result is that CA is actually redder than it looks on paper.

Stop blaming the right wing because the largest liberal voting block in the US disagrees with you.

The Religious Right pumped millions into a shameful campaign of disinformation in California over gay marriage. I expect you to be honest enough to admit, this sort of propagandizing by certain of the religious leaders against those who are not members of their faith is a problem in US politics.

I did not say it was one we could solve, Quantum Windbag, just an abuse we should condemn.


And Meg Whitman pumped millions onto her campaign, and lost. People made up their own minds, and voted the way they did for their own reasons. Do you really think that the voting block that voted overwhelmingly for Obama cared enough about what the Mormons think to vote the way they wanted simply because they spent more money? If so, how do you explain that the same people didn't care about money just tow years later?

I think Whitman's defeat is an interesting episode in US politics, and worth discussing. But a candidate for office is not quite the same thing as a ballot initiative, and they cannot be regarded the same way.

In any event, we knew who was funding Whitman's campaign. I doubt many Cleveland-area Catholics knew millions were being spent by the RCC in California to pass Prop 8. The diosese has closed about half the churches here, despite the anguish that caused, and the faithful might have thought their money should instead have been spent to keep some open.
 
What a load of horseshit. I REPEAT, cite for us a relevant passage from the Constitution or our laws that BAR religion from participating in the political arena. Or admit YOU want to do EXACTLY what YOU are complaining about, shutting up people you disagree with.

She won't, because there is no such passage. What she is advocating is exactly as you say...the marginalization and persecution of all Christians. Punishment and oppression for those who dare to voice their devotion to God....while at the same time, she desires the promotion of Islam and other groups who hate and murder Americans and Christians.

The goal here is to destroy America, and eliminate Christians.

O get a grip, Allie. When have I ever said I wanted to persecute christians or destroy America? I just don't like the Pope telling the Catholics Americans they "must" oppose gay marriage or "must" be single issue voters.

Why is it the Religious Right is always on the warpath against the dignity, peace and rights of some group they do not include among their numbers? Don't you people have enough to do, running your own lives?

What the fuck difference does it make to you what the Pope tells Catholics to do? You aren't Catholic, so mind your own fucking business. Man, your obnoxious nose is in so many places it has no business being.

And, the reason Prop 8 did not pass is not because of the Catholics, rather it was the !lack community that tipped the scales.

Not everyone thinks as you do. Grow up and grasp that and mind your own fucking business. This is shit most sane persons grasp by third grade.
 
She won't, because there is no such passage. What she is advocating is exactly as you say...the marginalization and persecution of all Christians. Punishment and oppression for those who dare to voice their devotion to God....while at the same time, she desires the promotion of Islam and other groups who hate and murder Americans and Christians.

The goal here is to destroy America, and eliminate Christians.

O get a grip, Allie. When have I ever said I wanted to persecute christians or destroy America? I just don't like the Pope telling the Catholics Americans they "must" oppose gay marriage or "must" be single issue voters.

Why is it the Religious Right is always on the warpath against the dignity, peace and rights of some group they do not include among their numbers? Don't you people have enough to do, running your own lives?

What the fuck difference does it make to you what the Pope tells Catholics to do? You aren't Catholic, so mind your own fucking business. Man, your obnoxious nose is in so many places it has no business being.

And, the reason Prop 8 did not pass is not because of the Catholics, rather it was the !lack community that tipped the scales.

Not everyone thinks as you do. Grow up and grasp that and mind your own fucking business. This is shit most sane persons grasp by third grade.

My rights are affected by the intrusive political machinations of the RCC and other churches. Can you please think before you post, Si? You aren't making any sense.
 
Under God: With election results in, debate over religious factor begins - William Wan

Can't you "Religious Right" types get that the US is not a theocracy?

Discuss.

That is funny. I have not heard in all my years, of any time when the government, or the people were suggesting or promoting a theocracy. There are pockets of people here and there who have radical ideas, but they are on the frenge.

However, America became a great nation because of God fearing people who risked everything.

Of come not so God fearing people did too, and that has made America the balanced nation that she is (was).

Muslims could be the ones to ruin the nation with religion, and an evil theocracy.

god loves us and we are supposed to love him. where does the fearing come in?
But it does fit in with fear being a prime motivatior of the right.
 
O get a grip, Allie. When have I ever said I wanted to persecute christians or destroy America? I just don't like the Pope telling the Catholics Americans they "must" oppose gay marriage or "must" be single issue voters.

Why is it the Religious Right is always on the warpath against the dignity, peace and rights of some group they do not include among their numbers? Don't you people have enough to do, running your own lives?

What the fuck difference does it make to you what the Pope tells Catholics to do? You aren't Catholic, so mind your own fucking business. Man, your obnoxious nose is in so many places it has no business being.

And, the reason Prop 8 did not pass is not because of the Catholics, rather it was the !lack community that tipped the scales.

Not everyone thinks as you do. Grow up and grasp that and mind your own fucking business. This is shit most sane persons grasp by third grade.

My rights are affected by the intrusive political machinations of the RCC and other churches. Can you please think before you post, Si? You aren't making any sense.
Name one, just a single right of yours that the Church has taken fron you.

I'd say I'd wait, but waiting for a dishonest moron to back up a thing she spews is foolish of me.

You haven't a rational thought in your head. You are an embarrassment to women.
 
For that matter, the RCC should have spent that money to feed the hungry, not to interfere with same-sex marriage rights of non-Catholics....IMO.

Unless you are a practicing Catholic, mind your own fucking business what the Catholic Church does with it's money. It's NOT your money. It's ours.

Some fucking Republican you are, Maddie. Our Church, our business. Simple enough for ya?

And, for the record, it is the responsibility of the Pope to remind Catholics that we should not vote for pro choice, pro stem cell research candidates. It is against the doctrine of our Church - that's his job. Again, what you think is of absolutely no relevance to Catholics. Go suck up to the Muslims.
 
People are religious.

People are also political.

Ergo getting religion out of politics is easy.

Simply eliminate people from politics.

Doesn't make sense, you say?

Yeah, that's right, it doesn't.
 

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