The Insanity of the U.S. Military's Rules of Engagement

Well, actually, at the time the soldiers met the goatherds, they only suspected that they might tell the Taliban. Certainly, the illiterate goatherders hadn't done anything at that time. So yes, at that time, they were innocent civilians. To kill them at that point would have been to murder them unprovoked.

Subsequent events do not change that fact.

Ahh yes, interesting logic indeed. Faulty as hell but interesting. Now the truth is I would have had trouble killing the goatherders myself, BUT in the end the decision NOT to incapacitate them was the wrong decision and the fault of the leader That Officer caused the mission to fail and worse, he cost the lives of his entire team save one.

Similar logic would be " That Bartender had no idea that the drunk would drive and kill all those people, he was just sitting in a bar drinking, after all"

To a very limited extent, you are right, insomuch as I did not fully state a proposition (and left it to the reader to get my meaning).

What I should have said was "So yes, at that time, to the knowledge of the soldiers, they were innocent civilians." I apologize for not making that clear.

However, your "similar logic" is not similar at all. The person at the bar has been seen drinking. Therefore, there is personalized evidence that he may be unfit to drive. In this case, there was no personalized evidence.

A better and more accurate example would be: "The bank manager had no idea that the drunk would drive and kill all those people, he was just cashing a check, after all."

Finally, to the extent that the goatherders informed anyone of their whereabouts, the officer is not at fault for not killing them, because he was following the RoE set out for him. Could he have incapacitated them in some other non-lethal manner within the RoE? Maybe, I don't really know.
 
bullshit-----Our foreign policy didn NOT cause Bin Laden and his cult to kill innocent civilians. He and his "followers" are responsible for what they do---again, you make excuses for his murderous behavior.

Our foriegn policy is partly to blame for our problems. We are responsible for our crimes and Osama and groups like Al Quada are responsible for their crimes. Their crimes done wipe our slate clean, just like ours dont wipe their slate clean.

I realize its hard for you to take responsiblity for our own crimes and you dont want the "image" of us as perfect heroes tarnished, but that image has always been fictional and its time we let go of fiction so we can move forward in a better and more realistic way.
 
you won't even hold them responsible;

Sure I do, I think they belong in prison for the rest of their lives and I also think thats where many on OUR side also belong and all for the same reasons....terrorism, human rights violations and crimes against humanity.

We have far too many on all sides who think they have a right to kill a path to what they want....you just want to pretend that dosent apply to us.
 
Our foriegn policy is partly to blame for our problems. We are responsible for our crimes and Osama and groups like Al Quada are responsible for their crimes. Their crimes done wipe our slate clean, just like ours dont wipe their slate clean.

I realize its hard for you to take responsiblity for our own crimes and you dont want the "image" of us as perfect heroes tarnished, but that image has always been fictional and its time we let go of fiction so we can move forward in a better and more realistic way.

I've never argued the US is pure as the driven snow. Do you even KNOW why bin laden attacked the US ?
 
Sure I do, I think they belong in prison for the rest of their lives and I also think thats where many on OUR side also belong and all for the same reasons....terrorism, human rights violations and crimes against humanity.

We have far too many on all sides who think they have a right to kill a path to what they want....you just want to pretend that dosent apply to us.

Bullshit----pure bullshit. America DOES NOT go around targeting civilians. We have no intent on converting the world to a religion and certainly no intention of killing then if they don't. Which country do our leaders proudly claim should be wiped off the face of the earth?
 
Bullshit----pure bullshit. America DOES NOT go around targeting civilians. We have no intent on converting the world to a religion and certainly no intention of killing then if they don't. Which country do our leaders proudly claim should be wiped off the face of the earth?


We dont proclaim we just DO! We wiped out the natives where we now reside, I sure dont see any nation for palestinians anymore and I dont think we have ever been short on sending missionaries around the world to "convert" the heathens. We have staged more than a few coups including one in Iran where we installed that brutal guy the Shah. Has the middle east done anything like this to our region?

What do you call bombing residential areas? Thats a direct targeting of innocent civilians. Wars of aggression target innocent people because we target a nation of innocent people for war and that war itself is NOT justified. Is this too complicated for ya?

Actions speak louder than words.
 
We dont proclaim we just DO! We wiped out the natives where we now reside, I sure dont see any nation for palestinians anymore and I dont think we have ever been short on sending missionaries around the world to "convert" the heathens. We have staged more than a few coups including one in Iran where we installed that brutal guy the Shah. Has the middle east done anything like this to our region?

What do you call bombing residential areas? Thats a direct targeting of innocent civilians. Wars of aggression target innocent people because we target a nation of innocent people for war and that war itself is NOT justified. Is this too complicated for ya?

Actions speak louder than words.

damn you have to go pretty damn far back in history to try to prove a point and it certainly wasn't Chirstian dogma that promotes installing dictators---that would be a our government.

Wrong---Americans are sent to prison for intentionally killing civilians. Muslims are idolized as heros.
 
damn you have to go pretty damn far back in history to try to prove a point and it certainly wasn't Chirstian dogma that promotes installing dictators---that would be a our government.

Wrong---Americans are sent to prison for intentionally killing civilians. Muslims are idolized as heros.

Not really, the Israeli conflict is going on right now and we are backing all the actions that deny them their NATION. Thats current.

We are STILL sending missionaries around the world to convert people (with US tax payer money no less)...thats also current.

Our govt has never been anything but christian and plays on the "christianity" card to push their agenda, its the same thing done by the extremists on their side. They play the religion card as well, but just like us...its not the real motivation, its just a great tool to be used. You seemed to have fallen for it hook, line and sinker so you can be exhibit A.
 
Not really, the Israeli conflict is going on right now and we are backing all the actions that deny them their NATION. Thats current.

We are STILL sending missionaries around the world to convert people (with US tax payer money no less)...thats also current.

Our govt has never been anything but christian and plays on the "christianity" card to push their agenda, its the same thing done by the extremists on their side. They play the religion card as well, but just like us...its not the real motivation, its just a great tool to be used. You seemed to have fallen for it hook, line and sinker so you can be exhibit A.

You're crazy. Religion IS the main motivator for the foreign policies of Islamic nations but thank you for admitting that Christianity is really not an American policy motivator. I hate it when the govt uses Christianity as a pretense.
 
Not really, the Israeli conflict is going on right now and we are backing all the actions that deny them their NATION. Thats current.

We are STILL sending missionaries around the world to convert people (with US tax payer money no less)...thats also current.

Our govt has never been anything but christian and plays on the "christianity" card to push their agenda, its the same thing done by the extremists on their side. They play the religion card as well, but just like us...its not the real motivation, its just a great tool to be used. You seemed to have fallen for it hook, line and sinker so you can be exhibit A.

Provide evidence of Tax money spent on Missionaries.
 
Provide evidence of Tax money spent on Missionaries.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/president-initiative.html

Is it actually new information to you that the US taxpayer funds many projects in its "faith based" programs? Lets not pretend they dont use the funds (both privately given and federally given) to fund their agendas, their missionaries as well as their charitable works.

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=98167&ran=246795

An example is Lighthouse Mission, a street ministry on Long Island in New York, which received a refrigerated trailer and a computer system.

The mission is unabashedly evangelical. Lighthouse Mission “not only feeds the hungry, but spiritually feeds the soul,” it proclaims on its Web site. “Through the love of God, the volunteers at the Mission help people in need on a daily basis through prayer and God’s Word.”

and

Operation Blessing, which has a paid staff of 40 at its Virginia Beach headquarters, says its mission is to “demonstrate God’s love by alleviating human need and suffering in the United States and around the world.”

http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=108

Despite the near universal condemnations of Robertson's remarks, back in Virginia Beach, Virginia -- where his ventures have their headquarters -- it was business as usual. Especially for Operation Blessing, the charitable entity whose mission is to "demonstrate God's love by alleviating human need and suffering in the United States and around the world."

We are funding religious organizations and we are funding their missions, including converting people since that is their objective and even state its the REASON they are involved in the charity work (to spread the word of god, to influence people to adopt their beliefs ie convert to christianity).
 
You're crazy. Religion IS the main motivator for the foreign policies of Islamic nations but thank you for admitting that Christianity is really not an American policy motivator. I hate it when the govt uses Christianity as a pretense.

I'm not crazy, you are just a bigot who sees somthing as bad when "They" do it but either deny or rationalize why we do it. Typical bigot is all.
 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/president-initiative.html

Is it actually new information to you that the US taxpayer funds many projects in its "faith based" programs? Lets not pretend they dont use the funds (both privately given and federally given) to fund their agendas, their missionaries as well as their charitable works.

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=98167&ran=246795



and



http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=108



We are funding religious organizations and we are funding their missions, including converting people since that is their objective and even state its the REASON they are involved in the charity work (to spread the word of god, to influence people to adopt their beliefs ie convert to christianity).

which do you fear more....a christian in baghdad or a muslim in baghdad....

which one is possible a christian in mecca or a muslim in st peters?
 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/president-initiative.html

Is it actually new information to you that the US taxpayer funds many projects in its "faith based" programs? Lets not pretend they dont use the funds (both privately given and federally given) to fund their agendas, their missionaries as well as their charitable works.

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=98167&ran=246795



and



http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=108



We are funding religious organizations and we are funding their missions, including converting people since that is their objective and even state its the REASON they are involved in the charity work (to spread the word of god, to influence people to adopt their beliefs ie convert to christianity).

Hog wash. The money is supplied and the equipment supplied is tailored to helping people in distress. I know, lets go ask some homeless Joe if he wants a place to sleep and food to eat but to get it he may have to accept help from some Christian group. Last I checked those groups DO NOT require you to listen to one word they have to say in order to get the help. Your making a false accusation.

Provide some evidence that ANY ONE is forced to listen to them to get food or a place to sleep. Failing that your guilty of being the bigot you claim others are.

Lets see, whats more helpful and more cost effective? A Government agency that will have to justify its existance every year in order to stay in buisiness or a local charity that only exists as long as the local area needs them?

IF you have EVER worked in Government and had any knowledge of how budgets work you would know the answer.

I ran 2 accounts for Housing of Unaccompanied Marines Col to private in Okinawa for a year.( and of course I also ran unit funds for shops I was in charge of, they though are a lot less money and your very restricted on what you can buy) The way it works is simple. They give you a budget, if you do not spend all the money they gave you on something, anything, they take the money away. There is absolutely no incentive to save a dime, in fact your ordered by higher ups to spend every penny, even if you don't need it. Because next year you will get less no matter what the situation is if you do not spend every penny.

On one of the accounts I took over 30 days before the change of Budget years and it had 4thousand dollars in it. I was told I had 5 days to spend the money or what ever wasn't spent would be taken away the next year.

I couldn't do it. I hadn't been in the position long enough to even know what I was authorized to buy. And I sure as hell wasn't gonna go buy 4000 dollars worth of paper towels and toilet paper when the Marines were required to provide their own. I did manage to spend 2k on copier paper and few other items that I could justify if asked about. So the next Budget the account got 2k less even though it was shared over several operations and things increased in price and more Marine quarters opened.

Large organizations like the Government waste money daily. Not just because they are incompetent but because of the WAY the system works. Governments can not save money unless they are FORCED to.

A Government operated help facility for homeless would require twice or three times as many people to run as a charity could do it on. And the managers would be busy justifying their existance so as to ensure they had a job next year, to hell with helping anyone. The red tape and paper generated would cost a lot of money alone. There would have to be a regulation on EVERY thing, Government run programs waste more than they provide to the people they are supposed to be helping.
 
which do you fear more....a christian in baghdad or a muslim in baghdad....

which one is possible a christian in mecca or a muslim in st peters?

Neither scare me, religious extremists are a bit scary no matter what religion they come from and ALL of the 3 major religions (jewish, christian and muslim) all have their extremists and they are all equally bad and deadly.
 
Hog wash. The money is supplied and the equipment supplied is tailored to helping people in distress. I know, lets go ask some homeless Joe if he wants a place to sleep and food to eat but to get it he may have to accept help from some Christian group. Last I checked those groups DO NOT require you to listen to one word they have to say in order to get the help. Your making a false accusation.

Provide some evidence that ANY ONE is forced to listen to them to get food or a place to sleep. Failing that your guilty of being the bigot you claim others are.

SNIP

The missions and churches come right out and SAY their PURPOSE is to spread their religion AND as was already pointed out in the article....people who are in crisis and needing help are not in a position to refuse to "listen".

Its pretty clear to see what Bush's faith based funding is all about.

Whats so bigoted in wanting tax funds to stay out of RELIGIOUS organizations hands. We can help people directly or through non-religious groups...thats not STOPPING religious groups from also helping via their private UNTAXED collections.

It is also worth noting that due to the special protections granted churches we allow them to violate federal laws that every one else must abide by when recieving public monies. For instance their hiring practices.

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/robertsonblessings.html

By sidestepping Congress through discretionary grants such as the recent HHS awards, the administration doesn't have to deal with such thorny issues as separation of church and state, and discriminatory hiring practices by faith-based organizations -- particularly directed at gays and lesbians. According to an AP interview this summer, Bobby Polito, who directs the HHS faith-based grant program said, "groups getting grants or subgrants will be allowed to consider religion in hiring and firing workers."
 
Neither scare me, religious extremists are a bit scary no matter what religion they come from and ALL of the 3 major religions (jewish, christian and muslim) all have their extremists and they are all equally bad and deadly.

Do you avoid all the deadly Lutherans in Sweden or do you just hope they don't "get" you ?
 
Do you avoid all the deadly Lutherans in Sweden or do you just hope they don't "get" you ?

The paranoia you have over "religious believers" is all your own. You dont seem to comprehend real well, I am not the one shivering in fear over believers. Extremists are a problem though and I havent found any swedish lutherans to be extremist.

I am not the one worried that they are going to "get me", thats your issue...you are one confused pup.
 
The paranoia you have over "religious believers" is all your own. You dont seem to comprehend real well, I am not the one shivering in fear over believers. Extremists are a problem though and I havent found any swedish lutherans to be extremist.

I am not the one worried that they are going to "get me", thats your issue...you are one confused pup.

Well don't go to certain areas of several large Cities in Sweden or the Ubequitous unaffiliated dissaffected youths may rob, rape and or murder you for not being the same color and religion as they are.
 
The paranoia you have over "religious believers" is all your own. You dont seem to comprehend real well, I am not the one shivering in fear over believers. Extremists are a problem though and I havent found any swedish lutherans to be extremist.

I am not the one worried that they are going to "get me", thats your issue...you are one confused pup.

I am confused----are you saying that Christians are as "deadly" as Muslims ?

If so, I would sure like to see some recent links to all these "deadly" Christians in action.
 

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