The insanity of right wing patriotism

[Billo_Really]

You -do- know that not everyone held by the US government has the right to trial, right?

I'm well aware of the laws regarding POW's.

I'm more concerned about this issue in regards to an American citizen. And there is no condition where that should be allowed to happen.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You -do- know that not everyone held by the US government has the right to trial, right?

I'm well aware of the laws regarding POW's.
I'm more concerned about this issue in regards to an American citizen. And there is no condition where that should be allowed to happen.

An American citizen captured as a POW also has no right to trial.
Now, he may be tried for treason, but he can be held indefinitely without trial as a POW.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Tell that to Jose Padilla.

You are amazingly fucking stupid, even for a terrorist.

{ On August 16, 2007, a federal jury found him guilty of conspiring to kill people in an overseas jihad and to fund and support overseas terrorism. Government officials had claimed Padilla was suspected of planning to build and explode a "dirty bomb" in the United States, but he was never charged with this crime, nor convicted on such a charge.

On January 22, 2008, Padilla was sentenced by Judge Marcia G. Cooke of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida to 17 years and four months in prison. His mother, Estela Ortega Lebron, was relieved but announced that they would appeal the judgment: "You have to understand that the government was asking for 30 years to life sentence in prison. We have a chance to appeal, and in the appeal we're gonna do better."[2]}

José Padilla (prisoner) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When you lie, terrorist - try and do a better job.

Okay?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Why do you say I forgot?

Those are 2 of the reasons I withdrew my support for him over 18 months ago.

Other reasons include that you're a citizen of Iran rather than the USA, and that you're on the terrorist watch list....

 

[Uncensored2008]

Incorrect.

Non-citizens, including those undocumented or detained terrorism suspects, are entitled to habeas and due process rights. See: Plyler v. Doe (1982), Boumediene v. Bush (2008)

Deliberately false. The precedent pertains to those held on U.S. Soil for criminal complaints. It has NO bearing on those held as enemy combatants on foreign soil.

To show precedence, then link to the civilian trials of Japanese or German POW's held on U.S. soil.

You can't - because you're full of shit and you know it.

 

[tinydancer]

Hey

Quite frankly after the 9/11 attacks I'm suprised the US, both the government and the people didnt react more severly than they did. The US suffers from "two ocean" syndrome, where we see our lack of hostile borders as a safety barrier. The attack on that day brought that crashing down. A more militaristic society would have basically declared all out war on the rest of the world, but we didnt do that.

We knew the attacks were coming 8 months before they happened and we did nothing about it.

The Padilla issue was handled as it should have been handled via the courts.

He wasn't in a courtroom until a couple years after his arrest. He couldn't even talk to a lawyer or be told what he was being held in custody for. Do you really think that's how US citizens should be treated? Where does it say in our Constitution we can be held without charges?

No it isn't. Due process of law is being arraigned within 48 hours and charged with a crime. In Padilla's case, that didn't happen for 2 years. Normally, you have to waive your right to a speedy trial to get into a situation like that, but that has to be done in court.

At least now we know how to handle that situation so it wont happen again.

Ya know, I've never been a 9/11 Truther, but I'm beginning to have my doubts. Because some claims really push the bounds of reality. Like the governments account of what happened that day in September 2001:

A few Saudi Arabians without any government’s backing or that of any intelligence service outwitted not only the CIA and the FBI but all 16 US intelligence agencies, even the Defense Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency, together with the intelligence agencies of all of Washington’s NATO allies and Israel’s Mossad, which has infiltrated every radical Muslim group. These humble Saudis of no known distinction or powers also simultaneously outwitted the National Security Council, NORAD, the Pentagon, Air Traffic Control, and caused Airport Security to fail four times in one hour on the same morning.

In other words, every part of America’s defenses failed at the same moment.

That's getting just a little too hard to believe.

"Hey 6 months from now I'm going to fly a plane into your house and kill you and all your family."

Who the hell is going to believe this shit even if it comes across your desk at intel. Here's where I'll give these guys a break.

On the other hand if it was mandatory for all these asswipes to listen to Coast to Coast with Art baby, there really would have been a different outcome.

Come on man, be honest. No one would have believed this in the "system".

 

[Uncensored2008]

"Hey 6 months from now I'm going to fly a plane into your house and kill you and all your family."

There was nothing even CLOSE to that level of detail. The Clinton advisement said "Bin Laden determined to attack the United States."

That's it - that's the entire "warning."

But Bush should have known that meant "We've been letting Muslim terrorists attend flight school since 1996 and they plan to use this knowledge to fly 757's into the World Trade center on September 11, 2001."

He should have known from Clinton's clear warning, right?

Who the hell is going to believe this shit even if it comes across your desk at intel. Here's where I'll give these guys a break.

On the other hand if it was mandatory for all these asswipes to listen to Coast to Coast with Art baby, there really would have been a different outcome.

Come on man, be honest. No one would have believed this in the "system".

Loincloth is an Iranian national and a JOOOO hater, he has nothing of worth to offer.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Incorrect.
Non-citizens, including those undocumented or detained terrorism suspects, are entitled to habeas and due process rights. See: Plyler v. Doe (1982), Boumediene v. Bush (2008)

Not all -- it is -entirely- dependant on circumstance.

 

[Billo_Really]

An American citizen captured as a POW also has no right to trial.
Now, he may be tried for treason, but he can be held indefinitely without trial as a POW.

And that's the point I'm making with this thread.

Supporting reasons to take away a US citizens civil rights, is not patriotism.

 

[Billo_Really]

You are amazingly fucking stupid, even for a terrorist.

{ On August 16, 2007, a federal jury found him guilty of conspiring to kill people in an overseas jihad and to fund and support overseas terrorism. Government officials had claimed Padilla was suspected of planning to build and explode a "dirty bomb" in the United States, but he was never charged with this crime, nor convicted on such a charge.

On January 22, 2008, Padilla was sentenced by Judge Marcia G. Cooke of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida to 17 years and four months in prison. His mother, Estela Ortega Lebron, was relieved but announced that they would appeal the judgment: "You have to understand that the government was asking for 30 years to life sentence in prison. We have a chance to appeal, and in the appeal we're gonna do better."[2]}

José Padilla (prisoner) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When you lie, terrorist - try and do a better job.

Okay?

WTF are you talking about?

That has nothing to do with what I said!

 

[Billo_Really]

Other reasons include that you're a citizen of Iran rather than the USA, and that you're on the terrorist watch list....

Care to explain that in a little more detail, you punkass little bitch?

 

[Billo_Really]

Deliberately false. The precedent pertains to those held on U.S. Soil for criminal complaints. It has NO bearing on those held as enemy combatants on foreign soil.

To show precedence, then link to the civilian trials of Japanese or German POW's held on U.S. soil.

You can't - because you're full of shit and you know it.

How old are you?

You talk like a 10 year old!

 

[Uncensored2008]

WTF are you talking about?

That has nothing to do with what I said!

You claimed that Padilla was denied habeas corpus and denied trial.

Both claims were false.

Liars for Allah, telling lies - what a surprise.

 

[Papageorgio]

I always get a kick out of lunatics on the right calling someone "anti-American", when I look at the things they support, like Constitutional rights.

Here is the rights' version of what Constitutional rights are:

The government’s indefinite detention policy –

If you are an enemy combatant or a threat to national security, we will detain you indefinitely until the war is over

It is a perpetual war, which will never be over

Neither you or your lawyers have a right to see the evidence against you, nor to face your accusers

But trust us, we know you are an enemy combatant and a threat to national security

We may torture you (and try to cover up the fact that you were tortured), because you are an enemy combatant, and so basic rights of a prisoner guaranteed by the Geneva Convention don’t apply to you

Since you admitted that you’re a bad guy (while trying to tell us whatever you think we want to hear to make the torture stop), it proves that we should hold you in indefinite detention​

See how that works?

Is this what many of them consider American values? It must be, because anytime someone voices their criticism of these policies, they're attacked for being anti-American.

My God, you people are fuckin' nuts and not anywhere close to what an American believes!

Since this was written a few days ago, what policies has the Obama administration put into place to stop all this?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I always get a kick out of lunatics on the right calling someone "anti-American", when I look at the things they support, like Constitutional rights.

Here is the rights' version of what Constitutional rights are:
Is this what many of them consider American values? It must be, because anytime someone voices their criticism of these policies, they're attacked for being anti-American.

My God, you people are fuckin' nuts and not anywhere close to what an American believes!

Only if you are not an American Citizen. If you are a Citizen you get full due process. If you are not a citizen and not part of a national army or follow the rules for insurgents, you are an unlawful combatant and your ass is grass.

Incorrect.

Non-citizens, including those undocumented or detained terrorism suspects, are entitled to habeas and due process rights. See: Plyler v. Doe (1982), Boumediene v. Bush (2008)

You cannot really believe that shit. Educate yourself.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/08/o...posium-the-passive-virtues-as-means-not-ends/

 

[whitehall]

I get it, you think Barry Hussein Obama is part of a right wing conspiracy. Maybe you should seek professional help, tenderloin.

Nice try. It seems you're the one who's trying to spin this into a conspiracy theory. Why can't you just accept what I said at face value, instead of making up your own version of it?

It's not that complicated. I don't think he's a liberal, or a leftist, or a progressive. That's it. No conspiracy to it. And because his policies are more right wing than left, I've withdrawn my support.

Why do you think I need professional help for that? GFY!

The old saying is that "just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you" but in your case when you see a right wing conspiracy behind every political event you disagree with no matter how left wing the administration has become, well...it indicates a mental problem.

 

[Billo_Really]

The old saying is that "just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you" but in your case when you see a right wing conspiracy behind every political event you disagree with no matter how left wing the administration has become, well...it indicates a mental problem.

I can understand that and, for the most part, agree with it. However, it doesn't apply to me, because I don't think every event is a right wing conspiracy. However, some things are not conspiracy's at all.

When he does the same things (or continue the same policies thereof) his predecessor did, it would be hypocritical of me not to remove my support.

 

[Billo_Really]

Since this was written a few days ago, what policies has the Obama administration put into place to stop all this?

None. And in some cases, he's made it worse.

 

[Billo_Really]

You claimed that Padilla was denied habeas corpus and denied trial.

Both claims were false.

Liars for Allah, telling lies - what a surprise.

I said he was denied his civil rights and wasn't officially charged (or didn't get to see a lawyer), until 2 years after his arrest.

Where's the lie?

 

[Uncensored2008]

I said he was denied his civil rights and wasn't officially charged (or didn't get to see a lawyer), until 2 years after his arrest.

No, that is not at all what you said. You claimed he was denied a lawyer and never charged.

You put no time frame on it.

Where's the lie?

Indeed.