The Greed of the Poor, the Entitled and the Powermad

[Thinman]

I truly appreciate the economics lesson. Unfortunately, those on the left stopped reading at the first incident of disagreement. A closed mind serves no one.

 

[Avatar4321]

LOL! No, that's not it at all. Try again.

Then you're lying to yourself.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

I understand it perfectly. It's a phrase that symbolizes your fear of change, specifically change that may be difficult.

LOL! No, that's not it at all. Try again.

Hey spuddytuber, what's your definition of 'too big to fail'?

LOL! Its not "my" definition.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

LOL! No, that's not it at all. Try again.

Then you're lying to yourself.

LOL! Ok.

 

[Big Fitz]

LOL! No, that's not it at all. Try again.

Hey spuddytuber, what's your definition of 'too big to fail'?

LOL! Its not "my" definition.

You're the one claiming we're wrong. Prove us wrong.

Or are you gonna keep being a shit chucker?

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Hey spuddytuber, what's your definition of 'too big to fail'?

LOL! Its not "my" definition.

You're the one claiming we're wrong. Prove us wrong.

Or are you gonna keep being a shit chucker?

You are wrong. I'm not interested in proving the obvious.

 

[Big Fitz]

LOL! Its not "my" definition.

You're the one claiming we're wrong. Prove us wrong.

Or are you gonna keep being a shit chucker?

You are wrong. I'm not interested in proving the obvious.

You're not interested in proving anything because you know your lies would be exposed.

...again.

Instead you're more intent on being the victim and shit chucking at anything that smacks of sane, intelligent conversation. Like a blue meanie of intellect. But dumber.

 

[Claudette]

Okay, this is too good an opportunity of a learning experience for you. Let's see if a blind evolutionary alley, a Homo Libtardus like yourself can be taught.

Let's say I own a business. But I don't want to run it. It's a demanding job and you would be responsible for maintaining profit for me and my shareholders, and growing the company to employ 45,000 workers as well. We have for some reason decided that you are the only person capable of doing the job. We also know that your skills are in high demand so we come to you with an offer you probably won't say no to.

So we offer you a contract for $10m a year, plus performance bonuses that could raise your contract value to $250m total value over 5 years. We offer this job to you. Do you deserve the money that we want to give you for doing the hard work of running the company and meeting the goals of maintaining profit and grow the company?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

It's easy to "prove a point" when you pull the points, one by one, out of your butt.

Still won't answer I see. Proving once again your cowardice to the truth. You know you'd take that money in a heartbeat and then if anyone tried to take it from you, you'd fight tooth and nail to keep every last red cent. But that's okay. We all know that to be the truth.

So you go play with your high minded lies to yourself that you're 'better' than other people cause you caaaaare for them with other people's money. penurious mendacious hypocritical asshat.

LMAO

You bet your ass he'd take the money and know he was worth every damned dime.

Everyone on this board would take that money and know we were worth it.

Now. If he chooses to give a percentage of HIS hardearned money to the lazy fucks out there then he certainly is entitled to do so.. Gotta wonder how much he would give to support the poor and downtrodden when its HIS money. LOL

I would give to the Salvation Army. The only charity I consider worth a damned.

Being the greedy bitch that I am. I would certainly keep the majority of MY HARDEARNED money.

The poor and downtrodden would just have to get off their lazy asses and take care of themselves. LOL

 

[Dr Gregg]

Greed of the poor? As the top 1% have half the money? Billionaires, really, that's the epitome of greed.

Ayn Rand is not realistic. THere are some points, but its just ideology over reality. The rich fuck the poor and the middle class nearly every chance they get so they can get more and more money, more than they even need to live a lush life.

 

[Dr Gregg]

Hmm, lets see, prior to the Great Depression, the gap between the top 10% and the rest was large, and during some of our prosperous errors after the 1940's, that gap was much lower, with the rise of a strong middle class. )People living the american dream. Where are we today? The gap between the top 10% and the rest is even higher than pre-depression, and our economy is struggling. How the fuck do so many people defend millionaires and billionaires over the working middle class that makes this country strong and prosperous? The more the rich horde and the less the workers make and spend, the shittier the economy

 

[Big Fitz]

Greed of the poor? As the top 1% have half the money? Billionaires, really, that's the epitome of greed.

Ayn Rand is not realistic. THere are some points, but its just ideology over reality. The rich fuck the poor and the middle class nearly every chance they get so they can get more and more money, more than they even need to live a lush life.

You posit the poor can't be greedy, but because the top 1% they are by nature greedy?

What's your definition of Greed then? dictionary.com states:

–noun
excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.

Huh. By that, wouldn't it be logical to suspect that the less a person has, the more greedy they are likely to be? After all, the rich already EARNED theirs. The poor have not.

Too much common sense?

 

[Big Fitz]

Hmm, lets see, prior to the Great Depression, the gap between the top 10% and the rest was large, and during some of our prosperous errors after the 1940's, that gap was much lower, with the rise of a strong middle class. )People living the american dream. Where are we today? The gap between the top 10% and the rest is even higher than pre-depression, and our economy is struggling. How the fuck do so many people defend millionaires and billionaires over the working middle class that makes this country strong and prosperous? The more the rich horde and the less the workers make and spend, the shittier the economy

To whom is the RIGHT given, to determine what an individual deserves to earn? By what authority is this Right given unto them to determine or enforce their decision? Is this equally fair to the rich as it is to the poor?

Rdean ran away from this small issue because his hypocrisy shown like a solar flare.

You say it's unfair for a minority to have more than they need, yet you say nothing of the responsibility for that have little to provide and work for that same wealth themselves. I notice a small but serious flaw in your ethics there, my friend.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Greed of the poor? As the top 1% have half the money? Billionaires, really, that's the epitome of greed.

Ayn Rand is not realistic. THere are some points, but its just ideology over reality. The rich fuck the poor and the middle class nearly every chance they get so they can get more and more money, more than they even need to live a lush life.

You posit the poor can't be greedy, but because the top 1% they are by nature greedy?

What's your definition of Greed then? dictionary.com states:

–noun
excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.

Huh. By that, wouldn't it be logical to suspect that the less a person has, the more greedy they are likely to be? After all, the rich already EARNED theirs. The poor have not.

Too much common sense?

You're confusing greed with need.

 

[DiamondDave]

Greed of the poor? As the top 1% have half the money? Billionaires, really, that's the epitome of greed.

Ayn Rand is not realistic. THere are some points, but its just ideology over reality. The rich fuck the poor and the middle class nearly every chance they get so they can get more and more money, more than they even need to live a lush life.

You posit the poor can't be greedy, but because the top 1% they are by nature greedy?

What's your definition of Greed then? dictionary.com states:

–noun
excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.

Huh. By that, wouldn't it be logical to suspect that the less a person has, the more greedy they are likely to be? After all, the rich already EARNED theirs. The poor have not.

Too much common sense?

You're confusing greed with need.

You're confusing need with want

 

[Big Fitz]

Greed of the poor? As the top 1% have half the money? Billionaires, really, that's the epitome of greed.

Ayn Rand is not realistic. THere are some points, but its just ideology over reality. The rich fuck the poor and the middle class nearly every chance they get so they can get more and more money, more than they even need to live a lush life.

You posit the poor can't be greedy, but because the top 1% they are by nature greedy?

What's your definition of Greed then? dictionary.com states:

–noun
excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions.

Huh. By that, wouldn't it be logical to suspect that the less a person has, the more greedy they are likely to be? After all, the rich already EARNED theirs. The poor have not.

Too much common sense?

You're confusing greed with need.

Examples:

Need.
"What can I do to attain what I need to live?"

Greed.
"I don't have what I need to live like I want. You have more than me, give it to me."

Learn what Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Maybe it will help you understand the difference between need want and greed.

 

[The T]

Hmm, lets see, prior to the Great Depression, the gap between the top 10% and the rest was large, and during some of our prosperous errors after the 1940's, that gap was much lower, with the rise of a strong middle class. )People living the american dream. Where are we today? The gap between the top 10% and the rest is even higher than pre-depression, and our economy is struggling. How the fuck do so many people defend millionaires and billionaires over the working middle class that makes this country strong and prosperous? The more the rich horde and the less the workers make and spend, the shittier the economy

First thing you need to do is not focus on those that have more than you and ask how YOU can strive for the same thing...and take measures to make it happen.

Second? Get over what you've been taught by those that preach class warfare. You've fallen into their trap. This nation is replete with stories of people who overcame the odds by hard work and perserverance. Being dilligent and purposeful, and deliberate in your persuit to get it yourself.
That's what makes America so great.

Third? Get over Government doing things FOR you. They aren't your friend, and they promise things to get you on board and garner your vote for their enpowerment...NOT YOURS.

It is Government that is in your way, and the rest of us persuing our dream by regulating everything and telling you HOW to live. It was never their purpose nor their scope.

 

[The T]

Are we "Too big to FAIL"?

Probably the best question asked this thread.

For my money, no. We are not to big to fail. Why? Because economic laws say we aren't.

All economics are based on the fundamental question of value for limited resources and the ability to acquire them. From this you get barter. Money helps by creating a proxy for trade that is universal, and separates us from the need to have exactly what the other person needs to facilitate a trade, thereby expanding an economic system from beyond what you have, to a medium which can be used to trade for any other raw resource or service. Econ 101 at your service.

And of course, value comes in from the simple question of "What's something worth to you?" When you have multiple people bidding on the same item, you create value by comparing what someone is willing to pay for it. The demand for the item, combined with it's rarity influence it's value. Something that is plentiful and has low demand will be all but free, while something with incredibly high demand and low availability will be extremely expensive. This one little aspect is lost on too many people by dint of sheer ignorance and belief that this fundamental law can be ignored. It makes for a lot of people knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing.

So after chapters 1 and 2 of Remedial Econ for college, how does this relate to macro-economic situations such as currencies, budgets and debt? Same way, but just like a single set of boulders are to a family household, the international level is like sand on the beach. The grains operate the same, just in vast vast multiples that bring with it, their own specialized laws that still rest on the fundamentals of value, worth, availability, scarcity and demand.

Each nation almost functions as a product itself. A very very complex product but something that can be bought and sold all the same. It's quality and value though are determined by how it conducts itself and in that manner, sells itself by treasuries and security bonds to anyone who wants to 'own a piece' of a nation. When a nation increases in quality, the value goes up making it worth more to the investor, and they can then sell their shares in the nation to gain personally, and increase their own worth and value. (yes, you are a commodity with value too).

What is the basis for a nation setting it's value? Usually it is a blend of a few major concepts. The mostly can be boiled down to two things though: Productivity of it's citizens, and value of it's owned resources. Balance this versus costs of governance and other factors that 'dip their beak' into the ability to extract and utilize these two major factors and you get a firm idea of an adjusted or net value. When the costs of operation exceed the value of the nations productivity and resources, the nation will begin to decline economically, and therefore decrease it's value. If the population are let loose to maximize their ability to exploit the resources of the nation to their utmost above the costs, just like any business, it will grow in value.

But where the rubber meets the road in this discussion is when a nation behaves badly. How does a nation behave badly you ask? Simple. One way is to ignore the laws of economics and begins to stifle the marketplace, production or access to resources. Another way is to increase it's spending and cost on the national economy to outstrip the ability for a nation's production and resources to keep up. Right now, the latter is the problem. Too many people spending on too many things that do nothing to increase value in this nation and essentially turn a profit through any means necessary.

In Greece, like with most of the nations under financial distress, this is clearly visible in the subsidizing of the welfare state. Greece, Germany, Sweden, Great Britain, Canada, the US and dozens of other highly industrialized nations who have a high degree of middle class seem to be victims of this thinking. The government is viewed more as a force for good, in which it is obligated to 'take care of citizens in need'. People in their desire to help others in need, as exemplified in western Judeo-Christian culture, see it as the duty of a government to help those who need help the most. Although this is a laudable function, it is ultimately doomed to kill a nation because of the very nature and behavior of governments. Governments are essentially systematic organizations of force for the smoother function of society. It is their job to force order and good behavior from citizens to other citizens. But it has one fatal flaw that is inherent to the very nature of man: enlightened self interest and scope creep.

Enlightened self interest means that someone is always on the look out for the best deal possible. when shopping, this is looking for sales, buying in bulk, using coupons where you get the most value for your effort and money. In government it means always having a job and protecting your position. Government bureaucrats are nothing but humans serving their own personal best interests WHILE serving their country. This means they will protect their job even if it means making work for themselves, to keep them from being laid off,

Scope creep is the best way to describe bureaucrats finding ways to expand their power so they always have something more to do. In this manner, government grows, inexorably... without conscious thought... into every part of the activities inside it's borders and sometimes outside them as well. The larger the scope of government control, the more need to keep people employed. The more people employed, the more need to supply them with work and therefore the need for getting more things to do. You see where this is going. It's like "The Blob" in this manner. It just eats and eats, and every part of it demanding more for their personal services making it more and more expensive to run.

Welcome to the current state of socialist western civ. They have taken unto themselves, by the blessing of well-meaning citizens, charity work. And now once it's begun, it's growing... and getting more and more expensive. This pattern will continue on and on until it reaches an upper limit. Then back-pressure will begin, then backlash, and then, if the pressure does not release, collapse and destruction.

Where the limit forms will differ based on the value and tolerance of a nation for government interference and depletion of their personal funds as determined by taxes. Some peoples across the world have an extreme tolerance for taxation and interference in their daily lives. Others, far less. Of course, the solution is the same, cut government size down and return the money to those who have originally had it taken from them for opportunities elsewhere. See, that's the other side of money going to a nanny state where the amount of people taken care of increases for government self-justification while the pool of those paying for it shrinks. At some point, you have too many people in the cart, and too few pulling and either the people pulling are going to die, quit or turn and attack.

Then you have the entitlement angle. Those who have been living off the government largess, paid for by an ever decreasing amount of people, feel the deserve their meager lifestyle that they do nothing to earn except excel in begging, essentially. The charity function, long usurped from private entities supported by personal good will of the populace has become a gun in the face of those who are no longer interested in paying for those who are ingratiate about the gift they are receiving, against the paying populace's will. These entitled dolists become very violent about having their only means of survival taken away from them, for it is there 'enlightened' self interest in action. Just like government bureaucrats, they want to live in the manner to which they are accustomed to.

Unfortunately, these two groups of people (government and dolists) have a problem and that is that the producers have a limit in what they CAN support as well as what they WILL support. The will often gives way before the can because at some point, the money required of them to support government (which produces nothing of itself to grow a national economy) and the dolists (those incapable or unwilling to produce for themselves) will exceed their ability to have a life in a manner they are accustomed. This puts the producers on an inexorable road to slavery if this is not stopped. There comes a point, where the producers ability to support is exceeded and a revolt WILL happen purely because they will have nothing left to lose. To continue the status quo will leave them working themselves to death or in perpetual servitude towards a ruling and indigent class of people in an unholy alliance to keep their positions and willing to fight very hard to keep it.

This is where we sit in Greece in many ways, but it has been compounded even further with lying. The government has been cooking the books for far longer than anyone's expected, and now that they have been seen for what they are, are in far worse straits than conceived. The producers see now that the government and the dolists have simultaneously realized that the producers CAN'T produce enough to sustain them, and are angry enough to revolt. So they are left with only a few theoretical choices: fight for their life to maintain their control AND dole, or cut back, decreasing both their ranks and costs forcing many who never produced to suddenly produce. Hence the riots we're seeing today.

How does this relate to the US? We have been fortunate, till recently, that the US has not cooked it's books as badly as Greece, but they have been sauteed a might. The press is ignoring incredibly dangerous situations with the housing market, the reckless printing of money, borrowing and general bad faith money management that for 35 years have culminated in this fiasco. Social programs that have long since exceeded their wildest dreams of budgets are becoming increasingly large drains on our economy as the middle class and producers for the first time are looking at the numbers just recently made available and saying 'this is criminal! If I did this I'd go to jail! It can't be allowed to go on!'. But we have NOT gone over the ability to work our way through this for there are still options... painful PAINFUL options available to get us out. But if these options are NOT taken, the US will fail, and like a large ship sinking, suck down everything near by with it.

So what's left for it? Budget cuts, local, state, federal. We've been spending like teen girls on speed in the mall during a sales blowout. Lots of good deals to be had, but the credit card limit is racking up overdraft penalties like crazy because the government has not been able to say NO, once. We need to cut up that credit card ASAP and reign in the spenders and potentially hold them accountable criminally.

We need reasonable service slashes budget freezes and tax freezes as well. When an economy is sour, the last thing you need is to decrease the ability for a population to produce. This is why tax cuts for ANYONE who pays taxes in, not those who get back is critical. If we expand the tax base, it should be the elimination of re-distributionist policies like EITC, Homestead Credits and many of the deductions the poor can take to get many multiples their paid out back. Even if you leave the tax rates where they are, this little bit could increase revenues dramatically. 60% of all taxes paid are by the top 5% of all wage earners.

Now I can hear the kvetch already "BUT THE RICH CAN AFFORD TO PAY!" You're right, they can. But as the millionaires tax in Maryland proved, they're also rich enough to move away, stop working and say 'hell with ya' and quit earning an income till government comes to their senses and stops penalizing those who move industry. Not only that, but wealth is mobile now. They can move everything they have offshore, world wide to a nation that would be happy for them to come and improve the lives of their citizens. So increasing taxes does much more harm than good. For as the rich leave, the poor have to shoulder more and get less and the nation gets poorer and poorer and poorer till it really DOES collapse into a third world anarchy worthy of the worst African or South American Banana Republic run by warlords who fight over who steals from the UN and Red Cross.

That is the ultimate destiny of this nation if we do not get sensible and fast.

So, is the US too big to fail? No. It's just too sad to think about. Our fate is not sealed yet, but we, as a people will have to buckle down and do the hard painful essentials of returning to personal responsibility and quit relying on government to provide instead of helping ourselves, our family and our neighbors, one at a time, as best we can. Only then will we pull out of this yawning abyss we now face.

Will we have the guts to do this, or will we try to change course only after we've gone over the edge and it's far farrrr too late?

I suspect that answers the question and then some. Good one T.

Thanks. It seemed the obvious question, and points directly at the root of the problem. It isn't in my view the people causing these things but the Government elected by the people that are.

Yeah I know it could be argued that the people elect those in power, and then bear some responsibility. Fair enough. But even that is changing as people are being directly affected, thereby rudely jolted to action by the change in their own lives...their values are under assault, and their sense of value, normalcy no longer applies.

And I think at this point we have come to a preface to whether the people are going to allow the Government to get away with more of the same, or seriously demand an accounting?

As it stands now? It's being hotly debated, anyone's call and my money is on the latter, and thus the myriad of like topics *we* discuss here amongst ourselves with our friends, our families now as Novermber approaches.

I am with you. we AREN'T too big to fail as a people. We will fail *if* we allow those in power to persue thier present course. I belive it's past time to show who's really in charge and what real American value is.