The Greatest Threat to Our Country

[Hobbit]

Why is this thread in the education section, you may ask? Shouldn't a thread about terrorists or illegal immigrants be in another forum? Well, yeah, but this thread isn't about those things. While they both pose a grave threat to this nation, their threat is more obvious and short term than what I think poses the single greatest threat to the future of this country. That threat is teachers' unions.

"But Hobbit," some of you may ask, "What the hell can teachers' unions do to us that's so much worse than illegals who wreck our economy and terrorists who blow us up?" Well, I'll tell you. First off, teachers' unions don't care about you. All they care about is making sure that no teacher is ever fired and never actually has to do anything, that and misuse millions of dollars in dues coerced by goverment mandated membership to campaign for values that a minority of their membership actually agrees with. For years, politicians have been trying to find a way to improve schools, and any time the solution is anything that would force teachers to do a good job, such things as vouchers, national standards, stricter requirements, and privatization, the teachers' unions have spent millions in dues to oppose these bills, even though, as people who care about their students, most of their members support the bills. Since every other thing has been tried, more funding, better equipment, more funding, smaller class sizes, more funding, higher teacher pay, more funding, standardized testing, and more funding, this leaves me to believe that the one sacred aspect to education that has been left untouched, forcing teachers to compete for their jobs, must be the only solution that will work, if anything works.

"But Hobbit," some of you still ask, "Why is this such a big threat?" Well, get this for a domino effect. Right now, more people are on welfare than ever before. Few citizens have an even elementary understanding of economics or government. Even fewer people even think about their taxes in terms other than their refunds (should I really be that excited that the government not only took too much of my money, but that they don't pay interest for the year that they kept it from me?). We are also becoming a weak nation that can't stomach hardships. All of this is because students aren't even required to try any more because giving all children A's is easier than talking to pissed off parents. The schools created by the teachers' unions are graduating generation after generation of undereducated, illiterate morons who can't even handle the stresses of the real world because they didn't even have to handle what should have been the stresses of growing up. All of this because teachers' unions don't want the people charged with training your child for the workplace to have to do any real work.

Then, it has created generation after generation of apathetic citizens who are uninterested and unlearned concerning the government. Only those with little real education can possibly think that a progressive income tax, inheritance tax, windfall profits tax, 'pussyfist' (pacifist) foreign policy, and unregulated social welfare could ever possibly be good ideas. What happens when these uneducated become the majority? We will have a communist oligarchy, a 'father knows best' state, that doesn't have the will to protect its own borders and lets the international community browbeat it into poverty. Believe you me, folks, if the teachers' unions are allowed to continue to run rampant, they will wreak so much damage against this country that some terroristic towelhead would have a wet dream just thinking about it.

You want to see America fall just like the once mighty Rome in less than 50 years? Just let the unions keep running the skrewls.

One more added note: I will take three jobs AND homeschool before I let my kids set one foot in one of those propoganda and wussification centers they call a public school.

 

[liberalogic]

Why is this thread in the education section, you may ask? Shouldn't a thread about terrorists or illegal immigrants be in another forum? Well, yeah, but this thread isn't about those things. While they both pose a grave threat to this nation, their threat is more obvious and short term than what I think poses the single greatest threat to the future of this country. That threat is teachers' unions.

"But Hobbit," some of you may ask, "What the hell can teachers' unions do to us that's so much worse than illegals who wreck our economy and terrorists who blow us up?" Well, I'll tell you. First off, teachers' unions don't care about you. All they care about is making sure that no teacher is ever fired and never actually has to do anything, that and misuse millions of dollars in dues coerced by goverment mandated membership to campaign for values that a minority of their membership actually agrees with. For years, politicians have been trying to find a way to improve schools, and any time the solution is anything that would force teachers to do a good job, such things as vouchers, national standards, stricter requirements, and privatization, the teachers' unions have spent millions in dues to oppose these bills, even though, as people who care about their students, most of their members support the bills. Since every other thing has been tried, more funding, better equipment, more funding, smaller class sizes, more funding, higher teacher pay, more funding, standardized testing, and more funding, this leaves me to believe that the one sacred aspect to education that has been left untouched, forcing teachers to compete for their jobs, must be the only solution that will work, if anything works.

"But Hobbit," some of you still ask, "Why is this such a big threat?" Well, get this for a domino effect. Right now, more people are on welfare than ever before. Few citizens have an even elementary understanding of economics or government. Even fewer people even think about their taxes in terms other than their refunds (should I really be that excited that the government not only took too much of my money, but that they don't pay interest for the year that they kept it from me?). We are also becoming a weak nation that can't stomach hardships. All of this is because students aren't even required to try any more because giving all children A's is easier than talking to pissed off parents. The schools created by the teachers' unions are graduating generation after generation of undereducated, illiterate morons who can't even handle the stresses of the real world because they didn't even have to handle what should have been the stresses of growing up. All of this because teachers' unions don't want the people charged with training your child for the workplace to have to do any real work.

Then, it has created generation after generation of apathetic citizens who are uninterested and unlearned concerning the government. Only those with little real education can possibly think that a progressive income tax, inheritance tax, windfall profits tax, 'pussyfist' (pacifist) foreign policy, and unregulated social welfare could ever possibly be good ideas. What happens when these uneducated become the majority? We will have a communist oligarchy, a 'father knows best' state, that doesn't have the will to protect its own borders and lets the international community browbeat it into poverty. Believe you me, folks, if the teachers' unions are allowed to continue to run rampant, they will wreak so much damage against this country that some terroristic towelhead would have a wet dream just thinking about it.

You want to see America fall just like the once mighty Rome in less than 50 years? Just let the unions keep running the skrewls.

One more added note: I will take three jobs AND homeschool before I let my kids set one foot in one of those propoganda and wussification centers they call a public school.

You're definitely exaggerating this public school thing...is it true that a lot of them suck? Absolutely-- but there are some that actually do the job.

Regardless, though, I personally think that this is a brilliant post. With the strengthening of the teacher's union has come a complacency that is detrimental to education. Many teachers have simply passed through their careers doing little, while climbing up the pay scale. They need to have a fire under their asses that pushes them to do more; otherwise, this dispicable pattern will simply continue and hasten the pace of the "dumbing down of America." Quite frankly, we're better than this.

 

[dilloduck]

You're definitely exaggerating this public school thing...is it true that a lot of them suck? Absolutely-- but there are some that actually do the job.

Regardless, though, I personally think that this is a brilliant post. With the strengthening of the teacher's union has come a complacency that is detrimental to education. Many teachers have simply passed through their careers doing little, while climbing up the pay scale. They need to have a fire under their asses that pushes them to do more; otherwise, this dispicable pattern will simply continue and hasten the pace of the "dumbing down of America." Quite frankly, we're better than this.

As long as we break our backs continuing to kiss everyones' poor little offended ass this country will never be better.

 

[Abbey Normal]

As long as we break our backs continuing to kiss everyones' poor little offended ass this country will never be better.

Amen to that.


"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dilloduck again."

 

[liberalogic]

As long as we break our backs continuing to kiss everyones' poor little offended ass this country will never be better.

Very true. We've traded hard work and dedication for laziness and incompetence. The traditional work ethic has been compromised through extensive unionization and an abundance of lawsuits that one can file against an employer. You should earn what you get, and not simply be entitled to it.

 

[Working Man]

As long as we break our backs continuing to kiss everyones' poor little offended ass this country will never be better.

I am offended too. Pucker up big boy!!!

What did the Microsoft Wonderboy say on TV?? Only a third of the graduating high school kids are qualified to go on to higher ed.

What did the Association of CPAs have to say?? In some states, the people who are applying for the cert is down by two thirds.. Probably too hard to study for. But, I am sure the Fed Tax Law has a bit to do with it too.

Another report out the other day says that students taking the SAT tests are off by double digit numbers. OK,, so the kids are becoming complacent with tests.

One more fact. The researchers have concluded that young males are not really maturing as expected. They are twenty five and acting like 18-20 year olds. (some women may claim to have known this for a while,, keep it to yourselves!!)

Now, that would make sense. FHM, STUFF, MAXIM, magazines show the hottest toys, some of the hottest chicks, but run ads for video games like no tomorrow. What age group are they trying to appeal to,, 14-30?

Bottom line, us old geezers who are just around the corner from retirement are screwed. If what we have graduating from our public schools is going to be our future, then I would suppose the end is closer than I thought.

 

[Hobbit]

You're definitely exaggerating this public school thing...is it true that a lot of them suck? Absolutely-- but there are some that actually do the job.

Regardless, though, I personally think that this is a brilliant post. With the strengthening of the teacher's union has come a complacency that is detrimental to education. Many teachers have simply passed through their careers doing little, while climbing up the pay scale. They need to have a fire under their asses that pushes them to do more; otherwise, this dispicable pattern will simply continue and hasten the pace of the "dumbing down of America." Quite frankly, we're better than this.

Yeah, I know there are a few that actually work. They're called 'magnet schools' because some parents actually pay tuition for their children to attend school out of district there. However, the only way to make all the other schools do better is if the parents, instead of paying extra, have their tax money diverted to the school their children actually attend. The least common denominator of a successful market is competition for market share. Right now, that doesn't exist in schools.

 

[LOki]

First off, teachers' unions don't care about you. All they care about is making sure that no teacher is ever fired and never actually has to do anything, that and misuse millions of dollars in dues coerced by goverment mandated membership to campaign for values that a minority of their membership actually agrees with.

No doubt. You sound very much like a school board member elected on a tax-payer platform. If so, congradulataions! And keep up the good work.

For years, politicians have been trying to find a way to improve schools, and any time the solution is anything that would force teachers to do a good job, such things as vouchers, national standards, stricter requirements, and privatization, the teachers' unions have spent millions in dues to oppose these bills, even though, as people who care about their students, most of their members support the bills. Since every other thing has been tried, more funding, better equipment, more funding, smaller class sizes, more funding, higher teacher pay, more funding, standardized testing, and more funding, this leaves me to believe that the one sacred aspect to education that has been left untouched, forcing teachers to compete for their jobs, must be the only solution that will work, if anything works.

The vast, vast majority of the school districts who utilize union teachers are bound by closed-shop contracts that disqualify potential teaching candidates soley on the basis of not wishing to be represented by the bullshit value set of union management.

There are parts of this counrty where such disqualification is illegal, and in those areas teachers on both sides of the union line produce better educations for their students. Though it is not always the case that such improved education comes at less cost, in practically every case the economy is realized in the increase in quality per dollar spent on each student.

The schools created by the teachers' unions are graduating generation after generation of undereducated, illiterate morons who can't even handle the stresses of the real world because they didn't even have to handle what should have been the stresses of growing up. All of this because teachers' unions don't want the people charged with training your child for the workplace to have to do any real work.

I'm not certain this follows, because I'm aware of quite a few teachers who work monumentally hard at their jobs, but the problem lies in where their efforts are required to be focused. So many of these teachers spend rediculous amounts of time accounting for paper clips, pencils and photocopies they use in the classroom--so much so that they often cover the cost of these items themselves so that they can spend more time teaching, and less time defending themselves against reactionary "accountabilty" accusations. Furthermore, while school psycholgists have no problem "labeling" students so that schools can collect greater tax supported funding for "special needs students," it remains politically incorrect to assign an idiot to an idiot's classroom for fear of them being "labeled." Teachers are then forced to teach to the absolute lowest common denominator in their classroom. The consequence is that we pay more per student for less education per student. The union's role in this is to establish a greater demand for dues paying teachers who will be unable to manage adequate education for the above stated reasons, which will lead the unions to lobby for more dues paying teachers, etc., etc...

I suppose I really must question whether or not this is a problem of unions particularly, or a problem of teacher's unions joined at the hip to, and empowered beyond conscience by a governemt monopoly on education, and the ability of these unions, joined with government, to crush their fiscally and productively superior private competition by legislative fiat.

 

[jillian]

The problem with the educational system, at least as I see it, isn't unions (though I think many of their demands can get a bit silly and can ignore what's best for the kids). The problem is a lack of value placed on teachers. They aren't well paid, so the best possible candidates aren't drawn to the field. That isn't to say there aren't many qualified, dedicated teachers. But they're too few and far between.

 

[Hobbit]

Yes, Loki, I agree. It's a two pronged offensive by a government monopoly and the all-powerful teachers' unions. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the teachers. I blame just about everyone else, from the administrators to the unions to the parents to the scum-sucking politicians.

 

[Annie]

Yes, Loki, I agree. It's a two pronged offensive by a government monopoly and the all-powerful teachers' unions. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the teachers. I blame just about everyone else, from the administrators to the unions to the parents to the scum-sucking politicians.

Teachers should take their part of the blame, they are not without sin. I do agree however that the parents, unfunded mandates-especially those that are to make life easier/more equitable/comprehensive are the primary culprit, and bureaucratic educational systems especially in large cities are more to blame.

 

[Hobbit]

Teachers should take their part of the blame, they are not without sin. I do agree however that the parents, unfunded mandates-especially those that are to make life easier/more equitable/comprehensive are the primary culprit, and bureaucratic educational systems especially in large cities are more to blame.

Well, yeah, but I think that if we are to divy up blame, I'd give the smallest portion to the teachers. The majority of government school teachers quit their jobs within the first five years, so I know it's tough for them. However, I also know that some teachers work the system and do the same thing as administrators...try not to draw attention, and they do it by never failing anyone or making their students do any real work.

You also have to consider what has happened to the truly great teachers, like that one guy who taught a bunch of poor, Mexican kids calculus and later got fired for pushing his students too hard.

 

[nukeman]

The problem with the educational system, at least as I see it, isn't unions (though I think many of their demands can get a bit silly and can ignore what's best for the kids). The problem is a lack of value placed on teachers. They aren't well paid, so the best possible candidates aren't drawn to the field. That isn't to say there aren't many qualified, dedicated teachers. But they're too few and far between.

I bolded this part of your reply. I have to say for the education that teachers have and the time that they are actually in class with students is more than fair compensation.

Look at it this way the average school teacher works 180 days a year and has on average 6-6.5 hours of contact time with students that equals out to 1080 hours a year of work the average full time worker in the US is 2080 hours a year. So they are working half the time as a full time employee.

The average starting salary for a teacher in Indiana is $25,000 that is 25.00 dollars an hour for a bachelors degree(not to bad). Lets not forget that they also do not pay into their retirement and also have very good health insurance. They also recieve vacation, Sick, and other beneffits these total about $0.35 cents on every dollar spent in salary so actually their annual starting pay is closer to 34,000 for the first year.

The average teacher in Indiana recieves in excess of 45,000 dollars a year plus beneffits, plus free retirement. How many of us can say the same.

You can argue with me till your blue in the face about teachers staying late and doing work at home and I for one will tell you I just dont buy it. I know for a fact that within 15 minutes of my children getting on the school bus for home the parking lot at the school in empty and there is no one around to answer a phone..

So what I am saying is that for the time that teachers work and the beneffits they recieve they are properly compensated. Most other people can not say the same yet we dont go around saying poor us give us more money and we can fix all your problems. If teachers wnat more money kick the damn union out and take back the money you give them!!!!!

 

[Annie]

I bolded this part of your reply. I have to say for the education that teachers have and the time that they are actually in class with students is more than fair compensation.

Look at it this way the average school teacher works 180 days a year and has on average 6-6.5 hours of contact time with students that equals out to 1080 hours a year of work the average full time worker in the US is 2080 hours a year. So they are working half the time as a full time employee.

The average starting salary for a teacher in Indiana is $25,000 that is 25.00 dollars an hour for a bachelors degree(not to bad). Lets not forget that they also do not pay into their retirement and also have very good health insurance. They also recieve vacation, Sick, and other beneffits these total about $0.35 cents on every dollar spent in salary so actually their annual starting pay is closer to 34,000 for the first year.

The average teacher in Indiana recieves in excess of 45,000 dollars a year plus beneffits, plus free retirement. How many of us can say the same.

You can argue with me till your blue in the face about teachers staying late and doing work at home and I for one will tell you I just dont buy it. I know for a fact that within 15 minutes of my children getting on the school bus for home the parking lot at the school in empty and there is no one around to answer a phone..

So what I am saying is that for the time that teachers work and the beneffits they recieve they are properly compensated. Most other people can not say the same yet we dont go around saying poor us give us more money and we can fix all your problems. If teachers wnat more money kick the damn union out and take back the money you give them!!!!!

I am a teacher and I agree with you that public school teachers in most areas are paid fairly, in some areas, more than fairly. About time though, don't doubt it. Every summer except the last when I HAD to work full time and the one before, when my mother was dying, I've taken graduate level Constitution or other social studies related courses. That's above and beyond the graduate degree I was working on. Every summer I do my lesson plans for the year, make overheads, and alternative assignments for both gifted and lower ability students-I work in parochial school, no aids, no special services.

I usually am at school by 6:30 am, to xerox-2 days a week I haven't a planning period and I do 'lunch recess' for jr high, for an extra $1600 per year and to save headaches of mothers coming to complain about the boys being 'rough' and girls being 'flirty' or 'mean.'

For the past 4 years, I've opened my classroom at 7:30, so the jr. high kids can get their homework finished or the help they couldn't get at home. Sometimes I'm there just to listen about problems they are having. There have been 2 times that I was able to learn enough to call social services on home situation and get help for parents and kids.

Everyday lesson plans need to be 'tweaked' depending on how the students are doing. Sometimes we are moving faster or slower then I guessed in the summer. Needless to say, current events rear their head! Immigration is the biggie now, Friday afternoon had a Hispanic mother on the phone demanding we stop talking about it. Problem is the kids ARE talking about it, with nearly 1/4 of my students being Hispanic and some are calling them names. So we must deal with it. Better in a controlled environment than at sports events, lunchroom, or recess.

And there are the 'papers to grade.' If students spend 4-5 hours on a report, it takes at least 1/2 hour to grade. I often have to check for plagarism, which increases the time. They are 'learning' how to research, by catching cheating now, I'm saving them a boatload of trouble in high school and college.

Oh yeah, Friday night I chaperoned the jr. high dance. Last dance of the year, same as always. The 8th grade boys insist on dancing with me! The first year, well I was a bit, "No, not appropriate!" Then one of them just grabbed my hand and insisted, whispered that he and the other boys wanted to say, "Thank you!" They did, really. The girls during the last week of school keep coming up and hugging me, saying, "Why don't you come and teach in high school?"

Best highlight of Friday night, one of my 'old' students, a sophomore now, dropped her sister off and asked me to come out for a minute. She just wanted to say, 'Thank you', she's taking 5 honors/AP courses next year and insisted that I gave her the confidence to keep at the academics and that she would 'get it.' She said the first year was hard, but this year was strait A's. She wanted me to know that her ability to take notes, something we had fought over and over about for 2 years, (she gave in by 8th grade), was what helped her most of all.

I just broke $30k per year after 8 years, but wouldn't trade teaching for anything. I would like to work in public schools and get that salary, but so far that hasn't happened.

I don't think I'm an extraordinary teacher in time or caring. I think most are. There are some that shouldn't be allowed near students, for either being ignorant themselves, not being able to teach what they are competent at or really not liking children. My guess is most children have a preponderance of good-great teachers throughout their academic careers and it really has gotten where the teachers are being let down by the parents and bureaucracy. I do understand that in both large urban and rural areas, the teachers are much harder to attract and retain.

 

[nukeman]

I am a teacher and I agree with you that public school teachers in most areas are paid fairly, in some areas, more than fairly. About time though, don't doubt it. Every summer except the last when I HAD to work full time and the one before, when my mother was dying, I've taken graduate level Constitution or other social studies related courses. That's above and beyond the graduate degree I was working on. Every summer I do my lesson plans for the year, make overheads, and alternative assignments for both gifted and lower ability students-I work in parochial school, no aids, no special services.

I usually am at school by 6:30 am, to xerox-2 days a week I haven't a planning period and I do 'lunch recess' for jr high, for an extra $1600 per year and to save headaches of mothers coming to complain about the boys being 'rough' and girls being 'flirty' or 'mean.'

For the past 4 years, I've opened my classroom at 7:30, so the jr. high kids can get their homework finished or the help they couldn't get at home. Sometimes I'm there just to listen about problems they are having. There have been 2 times that I was able to learn enough to call social services on home situation and get help for parents and kids.

Everyday lesson plans need to be 'tweaked' depending on how the students are doing. Sometimes we are moving faster or slower then I guessed in the summer. Needless to say, current events rear their head! Immigration is the biggie now, Friday afternoon had a Hispanic mother on the phone demanding we stop talking about it. Problem is the kids ARE talking about it, with nearly 1/4 of my students being Hispanic and some are calling them names. So we must deal with it. Better in a controlled environment than at sports events, lunchroom, or recess.

And there are the 'papers to grade.' If students spend 4-5 hours on a report, it takes at least 1/2 hour to grade. I often have to check for plagarism, which increases the time. They are 'learning' how to research, by catching cheating now, I'm saving them a boatload of trouble in high school and college.

Oh yeah, Friday night I chaperoned the jr. high dance. Last dance of the year, same as always. The 8th grade boys insist on dancing with me! The first year, well I was a bit, "No, not appropriate!" Then one of them just grabbed my hand and insisted, whispered that he and the other boys wanted to say, "Thank you!" They did, really. The girls during the last week of school keep coming up and hugging me, saying, "Why don't you come and teach in high school?"

Best highlight of Friday night, one of my 'old' students, a sophomore now, dropped her sister off and asked me to come out for a minute. She just wanted to say, 'Thank you', she's taking 5 honors/AP courses next year and insisted that I gave her the confidence to keep at the academics and that she would 'get it.' She said the first year was hard, but this year was strait A's. She wanted me to know that her ability to take notes, something we had fought over and over about for 2 years, (she gave in by 8th grade), was what helped her most of all.

I just broke $30k per year after 8 years, but wouldn't trade teaching for anything. I would like to work in public schools and get that salary, but so far that hasn't happened.

I don't think I'm an extraordinary teacher in time or caring. I think most are. There are some that shouldn't be allowed near students, for either being ignorant themselves, not being able to teach what they are competent at or really not liking children. My guess is most children have a preponderance of good-great teachers throughout their academic careers and it really has gotten where the teachers are being let down by the parents and bureaucracy. I do understand that in both large urban and rural areas, the teachers are much harder to attract and retain.

Kathianne: If all teachers were like you than I dont think there would be a problem but unfortunately most are not! My sister and I were just talking today about Teachers who really made a difference in our lives and she could come up with 4 and that is from kindergarten through college, I could come up with 3 and 1 of those was a college profesor.

 

[Annie]

Kathianne: If all teachers were like you than I dont think there would be a problem but unfortunately most are not! My sister and I were just talking today about Teachers who really made a difference in our lives and she could come up with 4 and that is from kindergarten through college, I could come up with 3 and 1 of those was a college profesor.

Like I said, I doubt I'm extraordinary, rather the rule. I'm sorry if your schools failed you, there is no excuse for that. Thank you for the kind words, but really, I feel I'm doing my job, which has way more thank yous than most!

 

[Nienna]

Yeah... for some teachers, the overtime they claim to work IS BS. I know teachers on both ends of the spectrum... the ones who slack, and the ones who bust their bottoms.

I agree, Hobbit, that unions and government monopoly are the worst problems in our school system, with apathetic parents being right there in the mix (probably better or worse depending on the school district).

 

[dilloduck]

Yeah... for some teachers, the overtime they claim to work IS BS. I know teachers on both ends of the spectrum... the ones who slack, and the ones who bust their bottoms.

I agree, Hobbit, that unions and government monopoly are the worst problems in our school system, with apathetic parents being right there in the mix (probably better or worse depending on the school district).

What incentive do kids have to try to learn anything?

 

[Nienna]

What incentive do kids have to try to learn anything?

Are we "agreeing" again, dillo?

 

[Annie]

What incentive do kids have to try to learn anything?

A successful after school life. Not to mention college of their choice.