The Greatest Job Creator Of All Time

[CrusaderFrank]

Greatest Jobs Creator of all time

 

[Mr. Peepers]

the United States via public-private partnerships. "Private electric utilities argued that the government had no right to compete with or regulate private enterprise, despite many of these utilities' having refused to extend their lines to rural areas, claiming lack of profitability. Private power companies set rural rates four times as high as city rates.[2] Under the REA there was no direct government competition to private enterprise. Instead, REA made loans available to local electrification cooperatives, which operated lines and distributed electricity."


Yep, that's how loans to private industry work! Why have righties always hated American success?

Not to mention that the TVA was instigated in large part to bring more electricity to Alcoa - rural electrification was a big plus too. Oh, and Alcoa is what? A PRVATELY OWNED aluminum manufacturer. My relatives in Appalachia got electricity for the first time due to the TVA. Most importantly, they were offered non-farm jobs for the first time due to the TVA. My parents are still on TVA power. Guess what, they pay 40% less than I do.

TVA: From the New Deal to a New Century

Not like you can expect a corporatist to open a history book, though, I guess.

 

[Oddball]

The TVA is one of the greatest ecological disasters of the 20th century.

Some success story.

 

[Flopper]

I guess you missed the post that pointed out that packet switching networks already existed before Arpanet even existed. That poster has a better grasp of all the history than I do, so I suggest you go back and read it.

I guess I did miss that post. In the 60's there were a number of people who did research and wrote papers about packet switching, however ARPANET was the first fully operational packet switching network. Even more important, was TCP/IP, Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol developed for the DOD. This protocol became the ARPANET protocol and the protocol for the Internet which grew out of ARPANET.

History of the Internet
http://student.ing-steen.se/IPv4/TCP-IP.pdf

Since my point is that, even without ARPANET, the Internet would exist, you have to prove that the engineering feat of actually building a network that was independently described by 3 different people over a period of 2 years would not have resulted in the Internet without the US government being involved.

Good look with that.

I agree with your point, that the Internet would exist today without ARPANET. I said the Internet would not be where it is today without ARPANET. There's a big difference.

Development of ARPANET was a key event in the development of the Internet. From the very start, ARPANET was designed using an open system concept that provided interoperability, portability and open software standards. In short the network was non-proprietary, all standards, specifications, and protocols were put in public domain so any manufacturer or software designer could create components that worked on the network. Major players in computer networking such as IBM and Novell had no interest in creating networks that presented development opportunities for competitors. They were too busy developing their own proprietary networks. Without the development of ARPANET and it's protocol, TCP/IP, it would have been years before the major network players would have worked together to developed the open standards that was so critical to the development of the Internet.

It was government and universities that were most responsible for the creation of the Internet. In 1970's and 80's, corporate America had little interest in the Internet. It was regarded as a toy for geeks and university researchers. Not until 1990, when the World Wide Web, was demonstrated did business really take the Internet seriously. To no surprise, the World Wide Web Consortium which guides and coordinated the development of the Web, was government funded by the European Commission and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the same agency that funded ARPANET.

 

[Avorysuds]

Fact: The OP is an idiot.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Research is rarely profitable, regardless of how it's funded.

the point is that people doing research with their own money or their company's money will have a lot more at risk personally than a libturd bureaucrat guessing with other peoples money!! Catching on now??

 

[Flopper]

i am not sure it is correct that companies do not invest in longer-term research projects.

Most pure research as apposed to product development is a cost item that rarely produces offsetting profits. So corporations tend to invest in long term research via tax deductible contributions to research foundations. In some cases direct investment in pure research by a business is looked on as a hedge, for example the oil company's investment in alternative energy sources. IMHO, basic research should be funded by foundations and government so the results can be published and put in the public domain.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I guess I did miss that post. In the 60's there were a number of people who did research and wrote papers about packet switching, however ARPANET was the first fully operational packet switching network. Even more important, was TCP/IP, Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol developed for the DOD. This protocol became the ARPANET protocol and the protocol for the Internet which grew out of ARPANET.

History of the Internet
http://student.ing-steen.se/IPv4/TCP-IP.pdf

Since my point is that, even without ARPANET, the Internet would exist, you have to prove that the engineering feat of actually building a network that was independently described by 3 different people over a period of 2 years would not have resulted in the Internet without the US government being involved.

Good look with that.

I agree with your point, that the Internet would exist today without ARPANET. I said the Internet would not be where it is today without ARPANET. There's a big difference.

Development of ARPANET was a key event in the development of the Internet. From the very start, ARPANET was designed using an open system concept that provided interoperability, portability and open software standards. In short the network was non-proprietary, all standards, specifications, and protocols were put in public domain so any manufacturer or software designer could create components that worked on the network. Major players in computer networking such as IBM and Novell had no interest in creating networks that presented development opportunities for competitors. They were too busy developing their own proprietary networks. Without the development of ARPANET and it's protocol, TCP/IP, it would have been years before the major network players would have worked together to developed the open standards that was so critical to the development of the Internet.

It was government and universities that were most responsible for the creation of the Internet. In 1970's and 80's, corporate America had little interest in the Internet. It was regarded as a toy for geeks and university researchers. Not until 1990, when the World Wide Web, was demonstrated did business really take the Internet seriously. To no surprise, the World Wide Web Consortium which guides and coordinated the development of the Web, was government funded by the European Commission and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the same agency that funded ARPANET.

Still can't agree. You could argue that it wouldn't work the same way, ARPANET was built using TCP/IP, and that became the accepted protocol, but that does not prove something else could not do the same job. There was a clear need for something, something would have been built.

 

[DSGE]

Greatest Jobs Creator of all time

Yep. He created tons of Jobs. Lisa Jobs. Erin Jobs. Eve Jobs. Probably some more.

 

[Flopper]

Since my point is that, even without ARPANET, the Internet would exist, you have to prove that the engineering feat of actually building a network that was independently described by 3 different people over a period of 2 years would not have resulted in the Internet without the US government being involved.

Good look with that.

I agree with your point, that the Internet would exist today without ARPANET. I said the Internet would not be where it is today without ARPANET. There's a big difference.

Development of ARPANET was a key event in the development of the Internet. From the very start, ARPANET was designed using an open system concept that provided interoperability, portability and open software standards. In short the network was non-proprietary, all standards, specifications, and protocols were put in public domain so any manufacturer or software designer could create components that worked on the network. Major players in computer networking such as IBM and Novell had no interest in creating networks that presented development opportunities for competitors. They were too busy developing their own proprietary networks. Without the development of ARPANET and it's protocol, TCP/IP, it would have been years before the major network players would have worked together to developed the open standards that was so critical to the development of the Internet.

It was government and universities that were most responsible for the creation of the Internet. In 1970's and 80's, corporate America had little interest in the Internet. It was regarded as a toy for geeks and university researchers. Not until 1990, when the World Wide Web, was demonstrated did business really take the Internet seriously. To no surprise, the World Wide Web Consortium which guides and coordinated the development of the Web, was government funded by the European Commission and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the same agency that funded ARPANET.

Still can't agree. You could argue that it wouldn't work the same way, ARPANET was built using TCP/IP, and that became the accepted protocol, but that does not prove something else could not do the same job. There was a clear need for something, something would have been built.

You still don't get it. ARPANET which became the Internet, was build as a non-proprietary network using TCP/IP which was a non-proprietary protocol developed for ARPANET. That means all the specification and protocols were made available to all vendors so they could develop the hardware and software for the network. A private enterprise does not spend millions of dollars developing a network then give all plans, protocols, specification to it's competitors so they can expand the network. This is exactly what ARPANET did and that expansion became the Internet. Thousands of private enterprises build the Internet using the protocols, procedures, and rules laid down by ARPANET and the organizations that grew out of ARPANET.

Your argument that some one else could have done the job is about as silly as saying if there were no American Revolution there could still have been a United States.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I agree with your point, that the Internet would exist today without ARPANET. I said the Internet would not be where it is today without ARPANET. There's a big difference.

Development of ARPANET was a key event in the development of the Internet. From the very start, ARPANET was designed using an open system concept that provided interoperability, portability and open software standards. In short the network was non-proprietary, all standards, specifications, and protocols were put in public domain so any manufacturer or software designer could create components that worked on the network. Major players in computer networking such as IBM and Novell had no interest in creating networks that presented development opportunities for competitors. They were too busy developing their own proprietary networks. Without the development of ARPANET and it's protocol, TCP/IP, it would have been years before the major network players would have worked together to developed the open standards that was so critical to the development of the Internet.

It was government and universities that were most responsible for the creation of the Internet. In 1970's and 80's, corporate America had little interest in the Internet. It was regarded as a toy for geeks and university researchers. Not until 1990, when the World Wide Web, was demonstrated did business really take the Internet seriously. To no surprise, the World Wide Web Consortium which guides and coordinated the development of the Web, was government funded by the European Commission and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the same agency that funded ARPANET.

Still can't agree. You could argue that it wouldn't work the same way, ARPANET was built using TCP/IP, and that became the accepted protocol, but that does not prove something else could not do the same job. There was a clear need for something, something would have been built.

You still don't get it. ARPANET which became the Internet, was build as a non-proprietary network using TCP/IP which was a non-proprietary protocol developed for ARPANET. That means all the specification and protocols were made available to all vendors so they could develop the hardware and software for the network. A private enterprise does not spend millions of dollars developing a network then give all plans, protocols, specification to it's competitors so they can expand the network. This is exactly what ARPANET did and that expansion became the Internet. Thousands of private enterprises build the Internet using the protocols, procedures, and rules laid down by ARPANET and the organizations that grew out of ARPANET.

Your argument that some one else could have done the job is about as silly as saying if there were no American Revolution there could still have been a United States.

And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet. Firefox is a non proprietary browser using non proprietary code that was originally developed for another non proprietary browser. There are people out there that spend money, and time, developing a browser that they give away.

It is entirely possible to build a computer, a server, a modem, and an entire intranet network using non proprietary source code and hardware. There are actually people out there that go to the trouble of designing this stuff and then giving the plans away.

Open-source hardware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you cannot imagine something happening does not make it impossible for it to happen, it just indicates your personal bias precludes imagining that there are people who do the very things you think cannot happen. There is no way that anyone can argue that the Internet would not have happened without government intervention unless they ignore the fact that people are quite willing to give away the things they build. I refuse to bury my head in the ground and insist that the way I do things is the only way to get them done.

I suggest you get your head out of the sand and either admit I am right, or stick it in your ass by denying the fact that people are quite willing to do what you think that only the government can do.

 

[Star]

Still can't agree. You could argue that it wouldn't work the same way, ARPANET was built using TCP/IP, and that became the accepted protocol, but that does not prove something else could not do the same job. There was a clear need for something, something would have been built.

You still don't get it. ARPANET which became the Internet, was build as a non-proprietary network using TCP/IP which was a non-proprietary protocol developed for ARPANET. That means all the specification and protocols were made available to all vendors so they could develop the hardware and software for the network. A private enterprise does not spend millions of dollars developing a network then give all plans, protocols, specification to it's competitors so they can expand the network. This is exactly what ARPANET did and that expansion became the Internet. Thousands of private enterprises build the Internet using the protocols, procedures, and rules laid down by ARPANET and the organizations that grew out of ARPANET.

Your argument that some one else could have done the job is about as silly as saying if there were no American Revolution there could still have been a United States.

And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet. Firefox is a non proprietary browser using non proprietary code that was originally developed for another non proprietary browser. There are people out there that spend money, and time, developing a browser that they give away.

It is entirely possible to build a computer, a server, a modem, and an entire intranet network using non proprietary source code and hardware. There are actually people out there that go to the trouble of designing this stuff and then giving the plans away.

Open-source hardware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you cannot imagine something happening does not make it impossible for it to happen, it just indicates your personal bias precludes imagining that there are people who do the very things you think cannot happen. There is no way that anyone can argue that the Internet would not have happened without government intervention unless they ignore the fact that people are quite willing to give away the things they build. I refuse to bury my head in the ground and insist that the way I do things is the only way to get them done.

I suggest you get your head out of the sand and either admit I am right, or stick it in your ass by denying the fact that people are quite willing to do what you think that only the government can do.

"There was a clear need for something, something would have been built." ~ Quantum Windbag


What was the clear need? When? By who? Why?


"And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet." ~ Quantum Windbag


Nor is there any -proof- that there would be.
We can speculate and project, but the bottom line is, it happened the way it happened. And it happened because Ike ordered his government minions under the funding auspices of DoD to respond to Sputnik. IOW - the government planted the internet seed in fallow ground then when private industry saw promising growth, and a way to get a ROI, then -- private industry added the fertilizer($) and the internet started growing to what it is today.



A timeline of major events in the history of the ARPANET providing an overview of the ARPANET's conception, growth, and development.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1958[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Eisenhower forms the ARPA (Advance Research Projects Agency) in response to the USSR's launch of the Sputnik.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1966[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: ARPA Computer Network (ARPANET) project begins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1967[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: It is suggested that the ARPANET utilize a separate computer between the host and the network. This computer would perform the packet switching/routing. This separate computer dubbed the Interface Message Processor or IMP.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1968[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: Contract to build the IMPs is won by Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (BBN)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1969[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: First specification for Host to IMP communication (BBN report 1822) is released.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: The discussion of the Host to Host Protocol begins with RFC 1. The Network Working Group (NWG) forms to deal with the task of Host-Host layer communication protocols. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]September: The first IMP is delivered and connected to a Sigma 7 computer at UCLA. This IMP constitutes the first node of the ARPANET. It is also the home of the Network Measurement Center, which will keep statistics, stress the network, and evaluate network performance. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: The second node of the ARPANET is installed at Stanford Research Institute (SRI). The IMP is connected to an SDS 940 Computer. The first message is sent across the network and received. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: The third node of the ARPANET is installed at UCSB. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: The fourth node of the ARPANET is installed at The University of Utah. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1970[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The network is stressed by inducing congestion. Several problems are revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: The ARPANET now spans the United States, with the installation of an IMP at BBN, in Cambridge, MA. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March?: The Network Control Center (NCC) at BBN begins operation. All IMPs have to report to the NCC every minute to confirm they are alive. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: The IMP's software is upgraded to allow the IMPs to be able to download any new software from each other. This allows IMP software to be installed on one IMP, and the software will propagate throughout the IMP-subnet. Likewise, if a problem occurs, and an IMP needs to restore its software, it can download it from a neighboring IMP. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1971[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The first host to host protocol is implemented, NCP (Network Control Protocol).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]September: The Terminal IMP (TIP) is installed in the ARPANET, allowing direct terminal access to the network. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1972[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: SNDMSG and READMAIL are written, allowing the first basic e-mail system.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]July: The first File Transfer Protocol (FTP) specification is released (RFC 354).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: First public demonstration of ARPANET occurs at the International Conference on Computer Communication (ICCC), Washington. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1973[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The first attempt at Internetworking two networks (ARPANET and Packet Radio Network) begins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]May: First Ethernet operation at Xerox Palo Alto Research Center. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1974[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: BBN releases a revised routing program for the IMPs.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]May: Transmission Control Protocol (TCP), is specified. This protocol would replace the NCP, and allows for Internetworking. The protocol also takes over error-checking duties from the IMP-subnet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1977[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: TCP operations begins over the ARPANET, Packet Radio Net, and the Satellite Network (SATNET).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1978[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: TCP split into TCP and IP, where TCP is the end to end process, and IP is the network routing process.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1983[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]MILNET (Military Network) splits off of ARPANET, leaving the ARPANET with 68 Nodes. The two networks are connected by a gateway, though.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]January: The ARPANET officially transitions to TCP/IP.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: Domain Name System (DNS) is designed. (.com, .gov, .mil, .org, .net, .int) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1989[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]After 20 years, ARPANET is shutdown.[/FONT]​

Computer History Museum - Exhibits - Internet History

 

[Flopper]

You still don't get it. ARPANET which became the Internet, was build as a non-proprietary network using TCP/IP which was a non-proprietary protocol developed for ARPANET. That means all the specification and protocols were made available to all vendors so they could develop the hardware and software for the network. A private enterprise does not spend millions of dollars developing a network then give all plans, protocols, specification to it's competitors so they can expand the network. This is exactly what ARPANET did and that expansion became the Internet. Thousands of private enterprises build the Internet using the protocols, procedures, and rules laid down by ARPANET and the organizations that grew out of ARPANET.

Your argument that some one else could have done the job is about as silly as saying if there were no American Revolution there could still have been a United States.

And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet. Firefox is a non proprietary browser using non proprietary code that was originally developed for another non proprietary browser. There are people out there that spend money, and time, developing a browser that they give away.

It is entirely possible to build a computer, a server, a modem, and an entire intranet network using non proprietary source code and hardware. There are actually people out there that go to the trouble of designing this stuff and then giving the plans away.

Open-source hardware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you cannot imagine something happening does not make it impossible for it to happen, it just indicates your personal bias precludes imagining that there are people who do the very things you think cannot happen. There is no way that anyone can argue that the Internet would not have happened without government intervention unless they ignore the fact that people are quite willing to give away the things they build. I refuse to bury my head in the ground and insist that the way I do things is the only way to get them done.

I suggest you get your head out of the sand and either admit I am right, or stick it in your ass by denying the fact that people are quite willing to do what you think that only the government can do.

"There was a clear need for something, something would have been built." ~ Quantum Windbag


What was the clear need? When? By who? Why?


"And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet." ~ Quantum Windbag


Nor is there any -proof- that there would be.
We can speculate and project, but the bottom line is, it happened the way it happened. And it happened because Ike ordered his government minions under the funding auspices of DoD to respond to Sputnik. IOW - the government planted the internet seed in fallow ground then when private industry saw promising growth, and a way to get a ROI, then -- private industry added the fertilizer($) and the internet started growing to what it is today.



A timeline of major events in the history of the ARPANET providing an overview of the ARPANET's conception, growth, and development.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1958[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Eisenhower forms the ARPA (Advance Research Projects Agency) in response to the USSR's launch of the Sputnik.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1966[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: ARPA Computer Network (ARPANET) project begins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1967[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: It is suggested that the ARPANET utilize a separate computer between the host and the network. This computer would perform the packet switching/routing. This separate computer dubbed the Interface Message Processor or IMP.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1968[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: Contract to build the IMPs is won by Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (BBN)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1969[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: First specification for Host to IMP communication (BBN report 1822) is released.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: The discussion of the Host to Host Protocol begins with RFC 1. The Network Working Group (NWG) forms to deal with the task of Host-Host layer communication protocols. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]September: The first IMP is delivered and connected to a Sigma 7 computer at UCLA. This IMP constitutes the first node of the ARPANET. It is also the home of the Network Measurement Center, which will keep statistics, stress the network, and evaluate network performance. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: The second node of the ARPANET is installed at Stanford Research Institute (SRI). The IMP is connected to an SDS 940 Computer. The first message is sent across the network and received. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: The third node of the ARPANET is installed at UCSB. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: The fourth node of the ARPANET is installed at The University of Utah. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1970[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The network is stressed by inducing congestion. Several problems are revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: The ARPANET now spans the United States, with the installation of an IMP at BBN, in Cambridge, MA. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March?: The Network Control Center (NCC) at BBN begins operation. All IMPs have to report to the NCC every minute to confirm they are alive. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: The IMP's software is upgraded to allow the IMPs to be able to download any new software from each other. This allows IMP software to be installed on one IMP, and the software will propagate throughout the IMP-subnet. Likewise, if a problem occurs, and an IMP needs to restore its software, it can download it from a neighboring IMP. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1971[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The first host to host protocol is implemented, NCP (Network Control Protocol).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]September: The Terminal IMP (TIP) is installed in the ARPANET, allowing direct terminal access to the network. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1972[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: SNDMSG and READMAIL are written, allowing the first basic e-mail system.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]July: The first File Transfer Protocol (FTP) specification is released (RFC 354).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: First public demonstration of ARPANET occurs at the International Conference on Computer Communication (ICCC), Washington. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1973[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The first attempt at Internetworking two networks (ARPANET and Packet Radio Network) begins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]May: First Ethernet operation at Xerox Palo Alto Research Center. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1974[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: BBN releases a revised routing program for the IMPs.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]May: Transmission Control Protocol (TCP), is specified. This protocol would replace the NCP, and allows for Internetworking. The protocol also takes over error-checking duties from the IMP-subnet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1977[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: TCP operations begins over the ARPANET, Packet Radio Net, and the Satellite Network (SATNET).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1978[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: TCP split into TCP and IP, where TCP is the end to end process, and IP is the network routing process.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1983[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]MILNET (Military Network) splits off of ARPANET, leaving the ARPANET with 68 Nodes. The two networks are connected by a gateway, though.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]January: The ARPANET officially transitions to TCP/IP.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: Domain Name System (DNS) is designed. (.com, .gov, .mil, .org, .net, .int) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1989[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]After 20 years, ARPANET is shutdown.[/FONT]​

Computer History Museum - Exhibits - Internet History

Yep, and the spark that started the corporate stampede to establish a presence on the Internet was Mosaic, the first Internet browser developed by the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, a joint American federal and state funded partnership.

The Internet is a great example of government doing what it does best, providing funding to plant the seeds of innovation, then stepping aside allowing private enterprise to develop those seeds.

To this day, I find it a wonder that the Internet actually works with no single entity controlling the network.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You still don't get it. ARPANET which became the Internet, was build as a non-proprietary network using TCP/IP which was a non-proprietary protocol developed for ARPANET. That means all the specification and protocols were made available to all vendors so they could develop the hardware and software for the network. A private enterprise does not spend millions of dollars developing a network then give all plans, protocols, specification to it's competitors so they can expand the network. This is exactly what ARPANET did and that expansion became the Internet. Thousands of private enterprises build the Internet using the protocols, procedures, and rules laid down by ARPANET and the organizations that grew out of ARPANET.

Your argument that some one else could have done the job is about as silly as saying if there were no American Revolution there could still have been a United States.

And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet. Firefox is a non proprietary browser using non proprietary code that was originally developed for another non proprietary browser. There are people out there that spend money, and time, developing a browser that they give away.

It is entirely possible to build a computer, a server, a modem, and an entire intranet network using non proprietary source code and hardware. There are actually people out there that go to the trouble of designing this stuff and then giving the plans away.

Open-source hardware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you cannot imagine something happening does not make it impossible for it to happen, it just indicates your personal bias precludes imagining that there are people who do the very things you think cannot happen. There is no way that anyone can argue that the Internet would not have happened without government intervention unless they ignore the fact that people are quite willing to give away the things they build. I refuse to bury my head in the ground and insist that the way I do things is the only way to get them done.

I suggest you get your head out of the sand and either admit I am right, or stick it in your ass by denying the fact that people are quite willing to do what you think that only the government can do.

"There was a clear need for something, something would have been built." ~ Quantum Windbag


What was the clear need? When? By who? Why?


"And, again, there is no proof that, without ARPANET there would be no Internet." ~ Quantum Windbag


Nor is there any -proof- that there would be.
We can speculate and project, but the bottom line is, it happened the way it happened. And it happened because Ike ordered his government minions under the funding auspices of DoD to respond to Sputnik. IOW - the government planted the internet seed in fallow ground then when private industry saw promising growth, and a way to get a ROI, then -- private industry added the fertilizer($) and the internet started growing to what it is today.



A timeline of major events in the history of the ARPANET providing an overview of the ARPANET's conception, growth, and development.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1958[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Eisenhower forms the ARPA (Advance Research Projects Agency) in response to the USSR's launch of the Sputnik.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1966[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: ARPA Computer Network (ARPANET) project begins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1967[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: It is suggested that the ARPANET utilize a separate computer between the host and the network. This computer would perform the packet switching/routing. This separate computer dubbed the Interface Message Processor or IMP.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1968[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: Contract to build the IMPs is won by Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (BBN)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1969[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: First specification for Host to IMP communication (BBN report 1822) is released.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: The discussion of the Host to Host Protocol begins with RFC 1. The Network Working Group (NWG) forms to deal with the task of Host-Host layer communication protocols. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]September: The first IMP is delivered and connected to a Sigma 7 computer at UCLA. This IMP constitutes the first node of the ARPANET. It is also the home of the Network Measurement Center, which will keep statistics, stress the network, and evaluate network performance. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: The second node of the ARPANET is installed at Stanford Research Institute (SRI). The IMP is connected to an SDS 940 Computer. The first message is sent across the network and received. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: The third node of the ARPANET is installed at UCSB. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]December: The fourth node of the ARPANET is installed at The University of Utah. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1970[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The network is stressed by inducing congestion. Several problems are revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: The ARPANET now spans the United States, with the installation of an IMP at BBN, in Cambridge, MA. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March?: The Network Control Center (NCC) at BBN begins operation. All IMPs have to report to the NCC every minute to confirm they are alive. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: The IMP's software is upgraded to allow the IMPs to be able to download any new software from each other. This allows IMP software to be installed on one IMP, and the software will propagate throughout the IMP-subnet. Likewise, if a problem occurs, and an IMP needs to restore its software, it can download it from a neighboring IMP. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1971[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The first host to host protocol is implemented, NCP (Network Control Protocol).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]September: The Terminal IMP (TIP) is installed in the ARPANET, allowing direct terminal access to the network. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1972[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: SNDMSG and READMAIL are written, allowing the first basic e-mail system.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]July: The first File Transfer Protocol (FTP) specification is released (RFC 354).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: First public demonstration of ARPANET occurs at the International Conference on Computer Communication (ICCC), Washington. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1973[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The first attempt at Internetworking two networks (ARPANET and Packet Radio Network) begins.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]May: First Ethernet operation at Xerox Palo Alto Research Center. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1974[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]April: BBN releases a revised routing program for the IMPs.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]May: Transmission Control Protocol (TCP), is specified. This protocol would replace the NCP, and allows for Internetworking. The protocol also takes over error-checking duties from the IMP-subnet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1977[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]October: TCP operations begins over the ARPANET, Packet Radio Net, and the Satellite Network (SATNET).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1978[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]March: TCP split into TCP and IP, where TCP is the end to end process, and IP is the network routing process.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1983[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]MILNET (Military Network) splits off of ARPANET, leaving the ARPANET with 68 Nodes. The two networks are connected by a gateway, though.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]January: The ARPANET officially transitions to TCP/IP.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]November: Domain Name System (DNS) is designed. (.com, .gov, .mil, .org, .net, .int) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+1]1989[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]After 20 years, ARPANET is shutdown.[/FONT]​

Computer History Museum - Exhibits - Internet History

Are you trying to say there is no clear need for the internet? Why does it exist then?

Go home and play with your dolls, you are clearly not qualified to debate anyone on this forum.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yep, and the spark that started the corporate stampede to establish a presence on the Internet was Mosaic, the first Internet browser developed by the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, a joint American federal and state funded partnership.

The Internet is a great example of government doing what it does best, providing funding to plant the seeds of innovation, then stepping aside allowing private enterprise to develop those seeds.

To this day, I find it a wonder that the Internet actually works with no single entity controlling the network.

To this day I am astonished that people think the only way to make things work is if the government is in control.

By the way, it is interesting that you mentioned Mosaic. Did you know that many of the same people that developed Mosaic were instrumental in developing Netscape? Are you aware that that was a commercial venture that was intended to make money by giving away their main product? Sounds a bit like Google, doesn't it? They develop all this stuff, spend millions on research every year, invest in infrastructure, and give away everything. How do you explain the existence of Google in a world where no one invests in basic research?

 

[Star]

Yep, and the spark that started the corporate stampede to establish a presence on the Internet was Mosaic, the first Internet browser developed by the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, a joint American federal and state funded partnership.

The Internet is a great example of government doing what it does best, providing funding to plant the seeds of innovation, then stepping aside allowing private enterprise to develop those seeds.

To this day, I find it a wonder that the Internet actually works with no single entity controlling the network.

To this day I am astonished that people think the only way to make things work is if the government is in control.

By the way, it is interesting that you mentioned Mosaic. Did you know that many of the same people that developed Mosaic were instrumental in developing Netscape? Are you aware that that was a commercial venture that was intended to make money by giving away their main product? Sounds a bit like Google, doesn't it? They develop all this stuff, spend millions on research every year, invest in infrastructure, and give away everything. How do you explain the existence of Google in a world where no one invests in basic research?

I'm amazed that you people don't see the value in government seed money -- do you think we would have a space program if it had been left to private industry?


You claimed: "There was a clear need for something, something would have been built."
I asked you to explain "What was the clear need? When? By who? Why?" Do you have a problem backing up your claims?





"I Don't Have Facts To Back This Up" ~ Republican candidate for POTUS

 

[Flopper]

Yep, and the spark that started the corporate stampede to establish a presence on the Internet was Mosaic, the first Internet browser developed by the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, a joint American federal and state funded partnership.

The Internet is a great example of government doing what it does best, providing funding to plant the seeds of innovation, then stepping aside allowing private enterprise to develop those seeds.

To this day, I find it a wonder that the Internet actually works with no single entity controlling the network.

To this day I am astonished that people think the only way to make things work is if the government is in control.

By the way, it is interesting that you mentioned Mosaic. Did you know that many of the same people that developed Mosaic were instrumental in developing Netscape? Are you aware that that was a commercial venture that was intended to make money by giving away their main product? Sounds a bit like Google, doesn't it? They develop all this stuff, spend millions on research every year, invest in infrastructure, and give away everything. How do you explain the existence of Google in a world where no one invests in basic research?

Netscape gave their product away in order to market Enterprise software licenses, Support/maintenance contracts, and Professional services. Google gave there's away in order to sell advertising. This is all much different than what the pioneers of the Internet did in the days of ARPANET. They developed the protocols and software needed for network operation and growth and made it available to everyone, not to make a profit, but to encourage the private and public sector to develop the network.

Protocol management and development was initially funded through ARPANET and various government grants. Working groups of interested parties were setup for purpose of development and maintenance of the protocols. As government funding dried up, the working groups were supported by member contributions then dues. Membership grew from small groups working under ARPANET to much larger organizations composed of those interested in the protocol. Today membership is composed mostly of representatives from the private an public sector whose business is very dependent on the development of the protocol.

And guest who provided the initial funding for Google founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin? Private investors? Nope. The government through grants and the National Science Foundation.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yep, and the spark that started the corporate stampede to establish a presence on the Internet was Mosaic, the first Internet browser developed by the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, a joint American federal and state funded partnership.

The Internet is a great example of government doing what it does best, providing funding to plant the seeds of innovation, then stepping aside allowing private enterprise to develop those seeds.

To this day, I find it a wonder that the Internet actually works with no single entity controlling the network.

To this day I am astonished that people think the only way to make things work is if the government is in control.

By the way, it is interesting that you mentioned Mosaic. Did you know that many of the same people that developed Mosaic were instrumental in developing Netscape? Are you aware that that was a commercial venture that was intended to make money by giving away their main product? Sounds a bit like Google, doesn't it? They develop all this stuff, spend millions on research every year, invest in infrastructure, and give away everything. How do you explain the existence of Google in a world where no one invests in basic research?

Netscape gave their product away in order to market Enterprise software licenses, Support/maintenance contracts, and Professional services. Google gave there's away in order to sell advertising. This is all much different than what the pioneers of the Internet did in the days of ARPANET. They developed the protocols and software needed for network operation and growth and made it available to everyone, not to make a profit, but to encourage the private and public sector to develop the network.

Protocol management and development was initially funded through ARPANET and various government grants. Working groups of interested parties were setup for purpose of development and maintenance of the protocols. As government funding dried up, the working groups were supported by member contributions then dues. Membership grew from small groups working under ARPANET to much larger organizations composed of those interested in the protocol. Today membership is composed mostly of representatives from the private an public sector whose business is very dependent on the development of the protocol.

And guest who provided the initial funding for Google founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin? Private investors? Nope. The government through grants and the National Science Foundation.

Google gives away the Android OS in order to sell advertisements? What, exactly, do they advertise on Android? I have used Picasa for years and never once say an advertisement on it, what do they advertise there? Are you even aware that Google is a lot more than a search engine?

How much does the government contribute to Google now? In fact, how much has the government contributed to Google since it became a company instead of a research project?

 

[Flopper]

I have often wondered if there were never an ARPANET nor all the funding through the NSF and various branches of government, what might the Internet look like today. I think both the private and public sector would have eventually seen the need for a world wide network. Would the protocols have been developed through working groups representing all major parties or would the developmental have been along proprietary lines?

I've read one scenario in which the Internet would have develop along the lines of the cell phone networks with each network provider developing different protocols, running different applications, with different supported attachment devices. If things developed in this manner, the Internet would not be a seamless network but rather groups of networks attached through bridges with varying degrees of sophistication of data communications dependent on the networks involved in the communication.

 

[Flopper]

Google gives away the Android OS in order to sell advertisements? What, exactly, do they advertise on Android? I have used Picasa for years and never once say an advertisement on it, what do they advertise there? Are you even aware that Google is a lot more than a search engine?

How much does the government contribute to Google now? In fact, how much has the government contributed to Google since it became a company instead of a research project?

I was referring to the Google Search Engine. The primary motive of giving away the Android operating system was to increase advertising revenue. "The Google search engine usage on Android phones increased tenfold in one year, translating into lucrative advertising revenue for Google."

Google Profits Up, Fueled by Android - Mobiledia

Also Android Apps, which are downloadable through Google are loaded with advertising. One estimate is that 65% of the apps contain advertising.

Free Android Apps Packed with Ads are Major Battery Drains | PCWorld

Not being an Android user, I don't know much about Android.

And yes, I'm well aware of the Google products.

I certainly hope the government hasn't contributed to Google since they incorporated. However, prior to their business startup, NSF and the government provided the founders funding to develop their first search engine, Backrub. They continued to perfect the technology resulting in the Google search engine which was first demonstrated at Stanford. Later that search engine became the centerpiece of there business venture. So the first Google search engine was developed not with entrepreneurial funds but rather funds from government and NSF.

Sergey Brin - NSF Graduate Research Fellowships Program (GRFP)