The Great RW myth about the Founders' meaning of 'Republic'.

[NYcarbineer]

We hear it all the time. The founders didn't want democracy; they wanted a 'republic'. The distinction is usually made by conservatives to defend any undemocratic aspects of our system of government -

those that just so happen to suit the conservative agenda.

Well, how about we hear what a real founding father really said about this thing 'republic'.

Thomas Jefferson:

"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea,

I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens.

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19

Get it? Jefferson EQUATES 'republic' to 'direct democracy', with only the caveat that a direct democracy becomes impractical in larger areas of space and population.

Never does he say that democracy and republic are distinct or separate entities.

Jefferson again:

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

.Once again, he does NOT differentiate between democracy and republic,

he equates them.

And Jefferson continues:

"The first shade from this pure element which, like that of pure vital air cannot sustain life of itself, would be where the powers of the government, being divided, should be exercised each by representatives chosen either pro hac vice, or for such short terms as should render secure the duty of expressing the will of their constituents. This I should consider as the nearest approach to a pure republic which is practicable on a large scale of country or population.

There he explains how a representative democracy, or republic, should function, when a pure (direct) democracy, aka a republic, is impractical.

And one more...

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition..." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

I suggest that before certain people spout off about what the founders believed, they actually find out what the founders believed.

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Republican Principles

 

[owebo]

Good thing there were Founders, and not a Founder...huh?

But none the less, I understood what TJ said, hopefully you will try harder to...

 

[NYcarbineer]

And I see the brains of the RW operation has already trolled in before even reading it.

Such is the intellect of the USMB right.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Good thing there were Founders, and not a Founder...huh?

But none the less, I understood what TJ said, hopefully you will try harder to...

what did he say? Did he not equate 'democracy' and 'republic'?

 

[owebo]

Good thing there were Founders, and not a Founder...huh?

But none the less, I understood what TJ said, hopefully you will try harder to...

what did he say? Did he not equate 'democracy' and 'republic'?

The articles of confederation were he first blueprint to get far enough away from the mob rule of democracy....but it was not far enough, as the FF were keep a close eye on the correct bounds of limited .gov in order to establish Liberty for all....

 

[Correll]

We hear it all the time. The founders didn't want democracy; they wanted a 'republic'. The distinction is usually made by conservatives to defend any undemocratic aspects of our system of government -

those that just so happen to suit the conservative agenda.

Well, how about we hear what a real founding father really said about this thing 'republic'.

Thomas Jefferson:

"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea,

I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens.

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19

Get it? Jefferson EQUATES 'republic' to 'direct democracy', with only the caveat that a direct democracy becomes impractical in larger areas of space and population.

Never does he say that democracy and republic are distinct or separate entities.

Jefferson again:

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

.Once again, he does NOT differentiate between democracy and republic,

he equates them.

And Jefferson continues:

"The first shade from this pure element which, like that of pure vital air cannot sustain life of itself, would be where the powers of the government, being divided, should be exercised each by representatives chosen either pro hac vice, or for such short terms as should render secure the duty of expressing the will of their constituents. This I should consider as the nearest approach to a pure republic which is practicable on a large scale of country or population.

There he explains how a representative democracy, or republic, should function, when a pure (direct) democracy, aka a republic, is impractical.

And one more...

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition..." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

I suggest that before certain people spout off about what the founders believed, they actually find out what the founders believed.

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Republican Principles

And thus when they took the "republic" beyond the level of a "limits of a town" they did not do direct, or pure democracy, but put in a couple of factors to prevent the larger states from completely dominating the smaller states.


One of which was the Electoral College.


Your Cognitive Dissonance is preventing you from understanding your own post.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Correll can be ignored: he literally has an IQ of less than 80.

However, this type of election defines what the Founders wanted. The states and regions with their unique situations are to have equal or superior quality to that straight popular vote.

If they did not think that, they would have not had an EV but a straight PV majority as the requirement instead.

Be glad that the GOP does not have a 2/3ds majority in the House and Senate, or the GOP would send out an even more restrictive requirement of giving each state one vote and dropping the EV and PV altogether.

 

[Moonglow]

Republic is an old Latin word meaning, "by treaty"...So your nation is a country of states that have been joined by treaty and the operation is by treaty..

 

[eflatminor]

He also acknowledged its impracticability beyond the limits of a town.

He was right.

Once gain, you've failed.

Off you go collectivist boy...unless of course you're ready to refresh that tree of liberty? LOL!

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

We hear it all the time. The founders didn't want democracy; they wanted a 'republic'. The distinction is usually made by conservatives to defend any undemocratic aspects of our system of government -

those that just so happen to suit the conservative agenda.

Well, how about we hear what a real founding father really said about this thing 'republic'.

Thomas Jefferson:

"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea,

I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens.

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19

Get it? Jefferson EQUATES 'republic' to 'direct democracy', with only the caveat that a direct democracy becomes impractical in larger areas of space and population.

Never does he say that democracy and republic are distinct or separate entities.

Jefferson again:

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

.Once again, he does NOT differentiate between democracy and republic,

he equates them.

And Jefferson continues:

"The first shade from this pure element which, like that of pure vital air cannot sustain life of itself, would be where the powers of the government, being divided, should be exercised each by representatives chosen either pro hac vice, or for such short terms as should render secure the duty of expressing the will of their constituents. This I should consider as the nearest approach to a pure republic which is practicable on a large scale of country or population.

There he explains how a representative democracy, or republic, should function, when a pure (direct) democracy, aka a republic, is impractical.

And one more...

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition..." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

I suggest that before certain people spout off about what the founders believed, they actually find out what the founders believed.

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Republican Principles

Jefferson was not advocating that our nation would be best represented as a democracy in accurately serving and determining the overall interests of its citizens. The closest form of a pure government we could have centers around the establishment of a republic in representing the needs of ALL its people.

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent." -- Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd president of the United States.

 

[Correll]

We hear it all the time. The founders didn't want democracy; they wanted a 'republic'. The distinction is usually made by conservatives to defend any undemocratic aspects of our system of government -

those that just so happen to suit the conservative agenda.

Well, how about we hear what a real founding father really said about this thing 'republic'.

Thomas Jefferson:

"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea,

I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens.

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19

Get it? Jefferson EQUATES 'republic' to 'direct democracy', with only the caveat that a direct democracy becomes impractical in larger areas of space and population.

Never does he say that democracy and republic are distinct or separate entities.

Jefferson again:

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

.Once again, he does NOT differentiate between democracy and republic,

he equates them.

And Jefferson continues:

"The first shade from this pure element which, like that of pure vital air cannot sustain life of itself, would be where the powers of the government, being divided, should be exercised each by representatives chosen either pro hac vice, or for such short terms as should render secure the duty of expressing the will of their constituents. This I should consider as the nearest approach to a pure republic which is practicable on a large scale of country or population.

There he explains how a representative democracy, or republic, should function, when a pure (direct) democracy, aka a republic, is impractical.

And one more...

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition..." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

I suggest that before certain people spout off about what the founders believed, they actually find out what the founders believed.

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Republican Principles

Jefferson was not advocating that our nation would be best represented as a democracy in accurately serving and determining the overall interests of its citizens. The closest form of a pure government we could have centers around the establishment of a republic in representing the needs of ALL its people.

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent." -- Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd president of the United States.

Which is what the LEft WANTS.

 

[Rustic]

Good thing there were Founders, and not a Founder...huh?

But none the less, I understood what TJ said, hopefully you will try harder to...

what did he say? Did he not equate 'democracy' and 'republic'?

 

[NYcarbineer]

We hear it all the time. The founders didn't want democracy; they wanted a 'republic'. The distinction is usually made by conservatives to defend any undemocratic aspects of our system of government -

those that just so happen to suit the conservative agenda.

Well, how about we hear what a real founding father really said about this thing 'republic'.

Thomas Jefferson:

"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea,

I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens.

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19

Get it? Jefferson EQUATES 'republic' to 'direct democracy', with only the caveat that a direct democracy becomes impractical in larger areas of space and population.

Never does he say that democracy and republic are distinct or separate entities.

Jefferson again:

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

.Once again, he does NOT differentiate between democracy and republic,

he equates them.

And Jefferson continues:

"The first shade from this pure element which, like that of pure vital air cannot sustain life of itself, would be where the powers of the government, being divided, should be exercised each by representatives chosen either pro hac vice, or for such short terms as should render secure the duty of expressing the will of their constituents. This I should consider as the nearest approach to a pure republic which is practicable on a large scale of country or population.

There he explains how a representative democracy, or republic, should function, when a pure (direct) democracy, aka a republic, is impractical.

And one more...

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition..." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

I suggest that before certain people spout off about what the founders believed, they actually find out what the founders believed.

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Republican Principles

Jefferson was not advocating that our nation would be best represented as a democracy in accurately serving and determining the overall interests of its citizens. The closest form of a pure government we could have centers around the establishment of a republic in representing the needs of ALL its people.

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent." -- Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd president of the United States.

There is no credible evidence Jefferson ever said that. Sorry.

 

[xyz]

The US will soon become a kakistocracy.

 

[Correll]

The US will soon become a kakistocracy.

Trump will implement radical new policies, such as a Trade Policy designed to support US manufacturing, and a restrictive Immigration policy.

This should result in significant increases in wages and working conditions for Middle America.

With all the follow on positives that one would expect.

 

[regent]

The word Republic also had another use at the time and that was: not a monarchy. When Mrs. Powel asks Franklin, have you given us a monarchy or a Republic she was using the word in that sense.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

We hear it all the time. The founders didn't want democracy; they wanted a 'republic'. The distinction is usually made by conservatives to defend any undemocratic aspects of our system of government -

those that just so happen to suit the conservative agenda.

Well, how about we hear what a real founding father really said about this thing 'republic'.

Thomas Jefferson:

"It must be acknowledged that the term republic is of very vague application in every language... Were I to assign to this term a precise and definite idea,

I would say purely and simply it means a government by its citizens in mass, acting directly and personally according to rules established by the majority; and that every other government is more or less republican in proportion as it has in its composition more or less of this ingredient of direct action of the citizens.

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:19

Get it? Jefferson EQUATES 'republic' to 'direct democracy', with only the caveat that a direct democracy becomes impractical in larger areas of space and population.

Never does he say that democracy and republic are distinct or separate entities.

Jefferson again:

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

.Once again, he does NOT differentiate between democracy and republic,

he equates them.

And Jefferson continues:

"The first shade from this pure element which, like that of pure vital air cannot sustain life of itself, would be where the powers of the government, being divided, should be exercised each by representatives chosen either pro hac vice, or for such short terms as should render secure the duty of expressing the will of their constituents. This I should consider as the nearest approach to a pure republic which is practicable on a large scale of country or population.

There he explains how a representative democracy, or republic, should function, when a pure (direct) democracy, aka a republic, is impractical.

And one more...

"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition..." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

I suggest that before certain people spout off about what the founders believed, they actually find out what the founders believed.

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Republican Principles

Jefferson was not advocating that our nation would be best represented as a democracy in accurately serving and determining the overall interests of its citizens. The closest form of a pure government we could have centers around the establishment of a republic in representing the needs of ALL its people.

"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent." -- Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd president of the United States.

There is no credible evidence Jefferson ever said that. Sorry.

There is actually no source to discredit or dispute the authenticity in respect to this particular quote from Jefferson, as respondents to Founders quotes often use to further their argument. I will also point out to you, that Jefferson was in Paris and not present during the drafting of the U.S. Constitution. Interesting that you would choose him as some form of "authority" into knowing how this country would best serve the people. Putting all your eggs into one Founder overseas, therefore does not accurately speak to the views of all the Founders ... does it?

Your evidence in what the Founders had desired to best serve and represent the people, looks rather thin on the subject, sorry for your luck.

Perhaps you can try again when you have enough quotes at your disposal that more accurately reflects the views of ALL the Founders. At the very least, you could choose a Founder who was present to participate in drafting that very document you care to criticize..

 

[Vastator]

Such a government is evidently restrained to very narrow limits of space and population. I doubt if it would be practicable beyond the extent of a New England township." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816.
As you can see from the information you provided, even he realised the limitations of pure democracy, over a large geographic. And because of this we have the electoral college.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The word Republic also had another use at the time and that was: not a monarchy. When Mrs. Powel asks Franklin, have you given us a monarchy or a Republic she was using the word in that sense.

Remember when Franklin answered, "a mob rule Democracy where Hillarys 3MM vote lead in CA would translate to only 1.7MM lead nationwide and make it her turn to be President"

 

[CrusaderFrank]

We were modeled on the Roman Republic; we're Rome